If it was up to me I think I'd be in the same boat, but flutter seems determined to test the spirit =P
Plus, we still have 100+ cards to go. Who knows, we might bet something great, but honestly, after Theros added like, what, ~10 strong cube cards I am looking forward to a set that is easy to update lol.
Also note that, aside from the 1 toughness, this thing goes away toward preventing your opponent from drawing answers to things. Digging through your deck for answers has always been a reliable way to deal with threats, and this card can potentially turn slight advantages into significant advantages.
I don't really want to make this a thread about what our cube should cut, I was just using the list to demonstrate a point about the nature of cube and put a question into the post I shouldn't have.
Anyway, I agree that this hoses some ways decks dig for answers and threats (notably not FoF, impulse, jace, AoT or any card that reads "put...into your hand"). However, the problem is those decks that rely on that digging generally tend to be the controlling decks, where white aggro is already favored. I don't think a card that makes a favorable matchup slightly better warrants a slot.
I feel that in most cubes, unless you really push tokens, the easier to cast Last Gasp is superior. And that's got to be a long way down the list of black removal options anyway.
I also think that if cubes wanted this sort of card they might already be running Echoing Decay? How many 3/3 token generators are there?
I guess it's slightly relevant that this also kills garruk beasts and call elephants as well as killing sworded tokens (Flutter and I share a cube and I think I said he should start this thread because of our recent tokens push), but yeah I had forgotten echoing decay was a thing. I do think it's just as good enough of the time that being easier to cast that it would make it into cubes before this card would.
Still, definitely going to keep echoing decay in mind as we go forward since our cube now has a fair number of ways to make 1/1 tokens (including symbol status.)
Edit - it might also be relevant that it can even kill tokens with pro-black swords as long as there is another token to target.
I'm not being asinine, you were making flawed arguments. Your comment about removing it making it somehow ineffective against Phyrexian Arena, for example. We're now discussing what average impact on a game it might have and whether that makes it worth a slot, so good work getting the thread back on track I guess. And yes, there are cards in your list that I consider cuttable. We can carry that into your own thread rather than continuing to detail this one.
Except you decided to take my statement, which was an example of how this card could be pretty bad even against a card it seems like it would be amazing against, and decide that it meant I was making a blanket argument that the card was bad because it died to removal, which you then decided was a flawed argument. Which, yes, saying a creature is bad because it dies to removal is a flawed argument, and not one I was making.
But bottom line - This card is a vanilla 3/1 enough of the time, and is sufficiently easy to answer when its ability is relevant, that it is not good enough warrant inclusion in small cubes. Maybe large and medium-large, where I still think it will be a SB, late-pick card. I feel like if you are MDing this in most drafts it means you didn't get the creature quality you wanted, you are playing some wonky cube with a hugely above-average number of draw effects, or you saw that the person you are about to play drafted jace, ponder, preordain, and brainstorm and have few scruples about pre-match sideboarding.
Imagine this in a tempo shell with Thassa and Accorder's Paladin or TNN or Oreo King. Some major unblockable early beats.
Except in this scenario what it's good for is its 3 power, not its hosing ability. Any 3-power beater is probably good in a tempo shell with thassa. In fact, it's worse than either TNN or accorder paladin in that example (and way worse than oreo king, but it costs 1 less mana, so that makes sense.) Also, a lot of those WU tempo decks have draw spells in them.
Like I said, maybe this card will be great, who knows, but the whole point of these new card threads is to say whether or not we think a card is good enough for cube. I don't think this one is for small unpowered lists. When it is not hosing your opponent, which I think will be a lot of the time, it is quite a mediocre card. I think our spirit friend has much bigger implications in legacy than cube.
Why not? Playing this creature doesn't make you bad at Magic.
He can't attack or block because, if you care about the hosing, he can't interact with any other creatures without dying. Someone who is good at magic would probably want to keep this guy alive against the edric deck.
i.e. it dies to removal. All creature cards are only good against anything if they're not dead. This is an argument for why he/she/it is a very important target for removal if you have cards affected by it, and that's all - it's actually an endorsement of its effect on the game. So yeah, it's very good against Arena and co, because it just has to be removed. A two mana creature commanding that attention is excellent.
It's like saying Bob is only good at drawing cards if they have '0 removal in hand'
Don't be deliberately asinine, obviously all creatures die to removal but what matters is the impact they have before they die. Bob draws you a card every turn for minimal life in a well-tuned deck. He always does that. He is never dead except as a late game top deck when you are at very low life. My arguments against this card have nothing to do with "it dies to removal," and everything to do with "the few times this card might legitimately hose people it's relatively easy to answer and a lot of the time it just doesn't do anything." Don't mix those two things up. No one is saying that Scornful Egotist is just as good as griselbrand because they both die to removal.
Further, bob is a card that always needs an answer and will usually take over the game if he's not. This is a card that doesn't really need an answer a lot of the time, and when it does need an answer, literally every removal spell in cube can kill it, as can combat with almost any creature.
There are some good arguments as to why this card might not work a few pages back mooted by calibretto and wtwlf, but what you're saying in the last few posts is off the mark for a few reasons.
The potential issue with the card is that it harms the caster's deck if not sufficiently built around, and that it may not be quite good enough to be worth it. Its efficacy is NOT in debate here. We all know that it's obviously a huge impact against certain decks, and those decks WILL have to deal with it. The collateral damage is more the issue. Some groups won't like that.
That is certainly a problem with the card, but it is not the only problem. There are lots of games/decks where this card doesn't hose you, doesn't hose your opponent, and is just a vanilla 3/1. I think that will be the scenario a large enough portion of the time to make this a mediocre cube card that can slot into 720's, but isn't going to make it into 450 or lower lists (again, it might be better in powered, I don't really play powered so IDK)
Also, you're treating cube like you can just add in whatever cards you want. You can't. Cube lists are a zero-sum game. When you put this card in, you have to take something else out. I'm sure there are games where this card would be great, and I think it's a fine card, but it's not good enough to warrant cutting a better white aggressive creature. I want to think about worst and average-case scenarios when evaluating a card, not just best-case. This is our white creatures lower than cmc 3 list.
Dryad Militant
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mother of Runes
Savannah Lions
Solider of the Pantheon
Steppe Lynx
Student of Warfare
Accorder Paladin
Imposing Sovereign
Knight of Meadowgrain
Kor Skyfisher
Leonin Relic-Warder
Soltari Monk
Soltari Priest
Soltari Trooper
Stoneforge Mystic
Stormfront Pegasus
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Wall of Omens
Blade Splicer
Flickerwisp
Mirran Crusader
Mirror Entity
Silverblade Paladin
Soltari Champion
I think everyone one of those either has a bigger impact on the game in Wx aggro or is important to another archetype in the cube (skyfisher in the blink deck, for example, or wall of omens in control decks)
The only creatures I think are close are meadowgrain, stormfront, and relic warder (because I think these creatures are on the bubble for being cut, not because I think they are directly comparable). I think relic warder is a much better hoser than this guy, especially since our cube now runs 2 gods and we have always run a very strong equipment package, not to mention how well warder can punish some ramp decks. I think the evasion on stormfront is much better than an extra power and the drawing hosing. Finally, I think meadowgrain is the closest to being cut, but it is so good in the aggro mirrors which is where the spirit is at its worse that I still think I'd rather have it than the spirit. And all of that is before we have to jam in another auto-include white 3-drop that is coming in this set.
If you have arguments for why you think it should be in over one of those other cards I'd be curious to hear them.
I think this is just wrong. A 3/1 for 2 that prevents a draw has done a lot more than most early drops late in the game. Not even close to "far and away the worst card in the deck." Some other cards that are way worse late in the game in those decks:
A 2/1 for BB that can't even block; A 0/1 that needs land drops to do anything for W; An enchantment that gets you lands and thins your deck for W; A 2/2 that deal you damage each turn after they stabilize; etc etc etc. All these cards are amazing, just not in every situation. And this guy's worst case is better than a lot of those.
After all that text, I will test this card, but likely cut it. Heh.
Except all those cards have something else making them amazing (I don't think land tax is a terribly appropriate comparison) - like that they are super undercosted,or they are recurable, etc. This guy is pretty on-par for cost, isn't recurrable, and is good against decks that Wx aggro is already good at. I guess I should have been more clear with the draw 1 example. What I mean is, this guy is sitting around, not able to block (cause you want the effect), not able to attack, and then he "gets" your opponent after a resolved csphinx where he only gets to draw 1 on your turn, which is almost completely irrelevant. That was what I meant when I said "he stops one draw." I see this guy in a lot of games stopping draws when you are so far behind it doesn't matter anymore.
I mean, yes, there are some games where he completely hoses UW control (which is the matchup I think this guy is best in), but does white aggro need that in cube? I don't think it does. I guess he's good in the UG edric tempo matchup, but he still can never attack or block.
Edit - Obviously this is all with no testing and just gut reaction. I do think hosers like this can be hard to evaluate because there's a lot of cards you might not think about and then you see this across the table and you look down at all your cantrips and just think "ugh....." So maybe he will be amazing, and I'll eat crow, but right now my gut is telling me he's not a small cubeable card. Maybe in powered which I have no real experience with.
A 3/1 for 1W that stops my opponent from drawing 1 card is pretty good I think. The question is more how often it can successfully do this.
Well, I guess I was envisioning a scenario where there is some incidental card draw happening that your opponent doesn't care that they miss. I mean, sure, if you drop this guy on t2 and a ponder, jace, bstorm whatever sits in your opponents hand, he's great. I think he's pretty strong if you follow up your opponents phyrexian arena with it even if he eats a removal spell immediately after (you still cost them a draw and a life so you get like a 2.2 for 1). But as you said, I just don't see it happening that often. I think at best this card stops your opponent from playing a draw spell of some kind for one turn while they answer it, which is maybe fine. I guess it's at its best against heavy U control which may have a hard time killing it once it's on the field, but any color with the U that makes sense in control is going to have no issues killing this thing.
Edit - Thinking about arena, they can actually even kill this guy with the arena trigger on the stack, or after it resolves, and still draw for their turn. So like, he's only good against arena if they have 0 removal in hand and don't draw one off the arena trigger. The more I think about this card the less impressed I am. It's not like blade of the sixth pride is making many waves, and this guy is just one of those with slightly worse creature types (although I dunno how big a cube would have to be to support rebels lol) too much of the time.
Still, going into four aggro decks - W/G, W/R, W/B and mono-W - and some midrange ones is OK, no? And besides, I wouldn't actually be deterred from running it in W/u tempo unless there are a lot of spells that it hoses in my deck. In my 24 non-land cards, maybe 6-12 of those might be blue, including a lot of creatures and tempo counters. Maybe 2-3 spells tops that are affected. And if I see one in my hand with the Spirit, I can play around it by playing it first. I don't think including it somehow obviates UW tempo as an archetype or even weakens it significantly. It's at worst something to think about when deck-building in the same way you keep an eye on life-loss cards in black, or expensive spells in a deck with Bob.
Well sure, it goes in those decks but when it's dead or only stops, say, 1 draw from your opponent it's far and away the worst card in the deck.
I like this guy alot, think Accorder Paladin might be getting bumped. Library of Alexandria kinda gets around this by being able to draw on opponent's turn which is slightly annoying.
Also being able to Enlightened Tutor for a creature is very relevant in my book.
The enlightened tutor trick is nice, but there's no way this is better than accorder paladin, which often ends up being 5 or 6 power for 2 mana. Accorder paladin is always good in Wx aggro, this is always fine and occasionally very good, which is not what I am looking for in a deck like aggro that rises or falls on its consistency.
The fakes aren't hard to spot. I'm playing in China and I've already spotted some. We had a very dramatic moment actually. I was playing at a table that was under good lighting and even in a sleeve my opponent's Elspeth looked strange. I pulled it out of the sleeve and could see based on the borders that it was a fake. I did the bend test and it failed. I then dramatically ripped it in half, during the game in front of the judge.
This guy is trolling. Please stop responding like this story is serious lol.
If it was up to me I think I'd be in the same boat, but flutter seems determined to test the spirit =P
Plus, we still have 100+ cards to go. Who knows, we might bet something great, but honestly, after Theros added like, what, ~10 strong cube cards I am looking forward to a set that is easy to update lol.
I don't really want to make this a thread about what our cube should cut, I was just using the list to demonstrate a point about the nature of cube and put a question into the post I shouldn't have.
Anyway, I agree that this hoses some ways decks dig for answers and threats (notably not FoF, impulse, jace, AoT or any card that reads "put...into your hand"). However, the problem is those decks that rely on that digging generally tend to be the controlling decks, where white aggro is already favored. I don't think a card that makes a favorable matchup slightly better warrants a slot.
I guess it's slightly relevant that this also kills garruk beasts and call elephants as well as killing sworded tokens (Flutter and I share a cube and I think I said he should start this thread because of our recent tokens push), but yeah I had forgotten echoing decay was a thing. I do think it's just as good enough of the time that being easier to cast that it would make it into cubes before this card would.
Still, definitely going to keep echoing decay in mind as we go forward since our cube now has a fair number of ways to make 1/1 tokens (including symbol status.)
Edit - it might also be relevant that it can even kill tokens with pro-black swords as long as there is another token to target.
Except you decided to take my statement, which was an example of how this card could be pretty bad even against a card it seems like it would be amazing against, and decide that it meant I was making a blanket argument that the card was bad because it died to removal, which you then decided was a flawed argument. Which, yes, saying a creature is bad because it dies to removal is a flawed argument, and not one I was making.
But bottom line - This card is a vanilla 3/1 enough of the time, and is sufficiently easy to answer when its ability is relevant, that it is not good enough warrant inclusion in small cubes. Maybe large and medium-large, where I still think it will be a SB, late-pick card. I feel like if you are MDing this in most drafts it means you didn't get the creature quality you wanted, you are playing some wonky cube with a hugely above-average number of draw effects, or you saw that the person you are about to play drafted jace, ponder, preordain, and brainstorm and have few scruples about pre-match sideboarding.
Except in this scenario what it's good for is its 3 power, not its hosing ability. Any 3-power beater is probably good in a tempo shell with thassa. In fact, it's worse than either TNN or accorder paladin in that example (and way worse than oreo king, but it costs 1 less mana, so that makes sense.) Also, a lot of those WU tempo decks have draw spells in them.
Like I said, maybe this card will be great, who knows, but the whole point of these new card threads is to say whether or not we think a card is good enough for cube. I don't think this one is for small unpowered lists. When it is not hosing your opponent, which I think will be a lot of the time, it is quite a mediocre card. I think our spirit friend has much bigger implications in legacy than cube.
He can't attack or block because, if you care about the hosing, he can't interact with any other creatures without dying. Someone who is good at magic would probably want to keep this guy alive against the edric deck.
Don't be deliberately asinine, obviously all creatures die to removal but what matters is the impact they have before they die. Bob draws you a card every turn for minimal life in a well-tuned deck. He always does that. He is never dead except as a late game top deck when you are at very low life. My arguments against this card have nothing to do with "it dies to removal," and everything to do with "the few times this card might legitimately hose people it's relatively easy to answer and a lot of the time it just doesn't do anything." Don't mix those two things up. No one is saying that Scornful Egotist is just as good as griselbrand because they both die to removal.
Further, bob is a card that always needs an answer and will usually take over the game if he's not. This is a card that doesn't really need an answer a lot of the time, and when it does need an answer, literally every removal spell in cube can kill it, as can combat with almost any creature.
That is certainly a problem with the card, but it is not the only problem. There are lots of games/decks where this card doesn't hose you, doesn't hose your opponent, and is just a vanilla 3/1. I think that will be the scenario a large enough portion of the time to make this a mediocre cube card that can slot into 720's, but isn't going to make it into 450 or lower lists (again, it might be better in powered, I don't really play powered so IDK)
Also, you're treating cube like you can just add in whatever cards you want. You can't. Cube lists are a zero-sum game. When you put this card in, you have to take something else out. I'm sure there are games where this card would be great, and I think it's a fine card, but it's not good enough to warrant cutting a better white aggressive creature. I want to think about worst and average-case scenarios when evaluating a card, not just best-case. This is our white creatures lower than cmc 3 list.
Dryad Militant
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mother of Runes
Savannah Lions
Solider of the Pantheon
Steppe Lynx
Student of Warfare
Accorder Paladin
Imposing Sovereign
Knight of Meadowgrain
Kor Skyfisher
Leonin Relic-Warder
Soltari Monk
Soltari Priest
Soltari Trooper
Stoneforge Mystic
Stormfront Pegasus
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Wall of Omens
Blade Splicer
Flickerwisp
Mirran Crusader
Mirror Entity
Silverblade Paladin
Soltari Champion
I think everyone one of those either has a bigger impact on the game in Wx aggro or is important to another archetype in the cube (skyfisher in the blink deck, for example, or wall of omens in control decks)
The only creatures I think are close are meadowgrain, stormfront, and relic warder (because I think these creatures are on the bubble for being cut, not because I think they are directly comparable). I think relic warder is a much better hoser than this guy, especially since our cube now runs 2 gods and we have always run a very strong equipment package, not to mention how well warder can punish some ramp decks. I think the evasion on stormfront is much better than an extra power and the drawing hosing. Finally, I think meadowgrain is the closest to being cut, but it is so good in the aggro mirrors which is where the spirit is at its worse that I still think I'd rather have it than the spirit. And all of that is before we have to jam in another auto-include white 3-drop that is coming in this set.
If you have arguments for why you think it should be in over one of those other cards I'd be curious to hear them.
I was thinking, though, that he makes arcane denial amazing if you manage to counter a spell on your turn.
Except all those cards have something else making them amazing (I don't think land tax is a terribly appropriate comparison) - like that they are super undercosted,or they are recurable, etc. This guy is pretty on-par for cost, isn't recurrable, and is good against decks that Wx aggro is already good at. I guess I should have been more clear with the draw 1 example. What I mean is, this guy is sitting around, not able to block (cause you want the effect), not able to attack, and then he "gets" your opponent after a resolved csphinx where he only gets to draw 1 on your turn, which is almost completely irrelevant. That was what I meant when I said "he stops one draw." I see this guy in a lot of games stopping draws when you are so far behind it doesn't matter anymore.
I mean, yes, there are some games where he completely hoses UW control (which is the matchup I think this guy is best in), but does white aggro need that in cube? I don't think it does. I guess he's good in the UG edric tempo matchup, but he still can never attack or block.
Edit - Obviously this is all with no testing and just gut reaction. I do think hosers like this can be hard to evaluate because there's a lot of cards you might not think about and then you see this across the table and you look down at all your cantrips and just think "ugh....." So maybe he will be amazing, and I'll eat crow, but right now my gut is telling me he's not a small cubeable card. Maybe in powered which I have no real experience with.
Well, I guess I was envisioning a scenario where there is some incidental card draw happening that your opponent doesn't care that they miss. I mean, sure, if you drop this guy on t2 and a ponder, jace, bstorm whatever sits in your opponents hand, he's great. I think he's pretty strong if you follow up your opponents phyrexian arena with it even if he eats a removal spell immediately after (you still cost them a draw and a life so you get like a 2.2 for 1). But as you said, I just don't see it happening that often. I think at best this card stops your opponent from playing a draw spell of some kind for one turn while they answer it, which is maybe fine. I guess it's at its best against heavy U control which may have a hard time killing it once it's on the field, but any color with the U that makes sense in control is going to have no issues killing this thing.
Edit - Thinking about arena, they can actually even kill this guy with the arena trigger on the stack, or after it resolves, and still draw for their turn. So like, he's only good against arena if they have 0 removal in hand and don't draw one off the arena trigger. The more I think about this card the less impressed I am. It's not like blade of the sixth pride is making many waves, and this guy is just one of those with slightly worse creature types (although I dunno how big a cube would have to be to support rebels lol) too much of the time.
Well sure, it goes in those decks but when it's dead or only stops, say, 1 draw from your opponent it's far and away the worst card in the deck.
The enlightened tutor trick is nice, but there's no way this is better than accorder paladin, which often ends up being 5 or 6 power for 2 mana. Accorder paladin is always good in Wx aggro, this is always fine and occasionally very good, which is not what I am looking for in a deck like aggro that rises or falls on its consistency.
"I did the bend test and it failed. I then dramatically ripped it in half, during the game in front of the judge."
I think that makes it pretty clear. I dramatically ripped it in half in front of the judge
No, no one did that. Comeon now.
This guy is trolling. Please stop responding like this story is serious lol.
Pretty much exactly what I was gonna say.