One more reason not to play Modern or Legacy. Could also be a reason to move to MTGO.
The fact that these look so good and pass the bend test will most likely be enough to fool a lot of people. This isn't good.
Frankly, I hope it convinces wizards to abandon the reserve list and actually make decks reasonable prices. This is supposed to be a game first, not an investment scheme where everyone is trying to get value and figure out the next card to spike in price.
That is not what the card does. If it just let you open a pack, take one card out of it, and then set it aside, then it would be a much better (and much more P2W) card. What the card *actually* does is what I described, PLUS giving your neighbor a free 2nd pick and his neighbor a free 3rd pick, and so on, without them having to give up *any* picks for it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on the card. I think it's a fun idea. But it isn't a competitive idea. It's very easy to break the card down to two considerations: usefulness in the draft (moderate, at most equal to the average difference in value between a first pick and a second pick, but impossible to predict), and usefulness in gameplay (less than almost anything else you could have taken - it's multiplayer FFA, and vanilla aggro creatures are inherently and categorically unplayable there). Add them together and you get a card with very nearly no predictable upside, ever.
People could assuredly pick a strange pack in order to throw a wrench into the format, and that'd be fun and cool, and I'm all for it. But if anyone thinks that in doing so they can gain a measurable advantage worth the price of the pack, then either they haven't added up all the opportunity costs that taking a Lore Seeker introduces, or else they're playing for incredibly high stakes (several tens of thousands of dollars, at least).
Did you actually read the post you quoted? Because I specifically said the card did exactly what you are saying it does (and what it in fact does, as is stated explicitly on the card.) Let me quote the relevant part for you. "tempered by the understanding that while you are giving up a pick to get this, you're giving the people you're passing to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc pick for "free."" So yeah, I know exactly what the card does. And it's still way better than you are giving it credit for. You are getting an extra first pick when you take this card. Obviously first picking this card is not great, unless there is stone nothing for you in the pack, as you're trading a 1st pick for a 1st pick and giving everyone your passing too an extra pick. But taking this 6th or beyond is a great upgrade. You get a crack at a fresh pack and are able to take another first pick quality card from it.
Why would you not just force it to be a conspiracy pack? I would argue it isn't even abundantly clear it's not supposed to be interpreted as a conspiracy booster - the format we're playing is conspiracy, all of the packs are conspiracy in this draft, thus adding a booster pack to the draft means adding a conspiracy booster.
That's certainly the easiest solution to this issue. 6/2/2014 3:58:04 PM
The only cases where taking this card is *ever* the right plan are when 1) you're going to open a fantastic bomb in the new pack and the rest of the pack is nowhere near as good, 2) a bear is better than any other card in the pack (which will probably be never, given that it's a mediocre vanilla aggro card in a free-for-all format - I can see running something like this in my deck approximately once every thousandth draft).
Ummmmm, wat? There are lots of other cases where taking this card is the right plan. This card can be incredibly strong in that it lets you trade a Xth pick for a first pick. If I am at my 6th or 7th pick, and there's a playable but average card for me and a lore seeker, you better believe I am taking the lore seeker for a shot at a much better card. This is especially true in pack one where a 1st pickable bomb can cement/change your colors. You are drastically undervaluing lore seeker's power in draft. Whether or not you want the bear in your deck should be a distant, distant second in your calculations as to whether or not to take lore seeker. Your calculation should be 99% if you think the average card in a booster pack is gonna be better than what is still left in this pack for you, tempered by the understanding that while you are giving up a pick to get this, you're giving the people you're passing to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc pick for "free."
The art (and really entire card) also looks washed out and odd (lines in the art seem to not be as crisp as other pictures of the card I have seen/when looking at the card in person), although that might just be what you're scanning with.
First of all I want to say that this is a staple in Cube.
But personally, I find the design too clunky and inelegant. It is a "targeted" spell that simply avoids the word target. I don't know, it makes me iffy. Plus, the voting part feels a bit Un-set to me. It makes less sense in a duel.
White already have answers to Shroud in terms of mass removal. While it helps the color, it is not necesaarily needed.
For these two reasons I may end up not cubing this.
Clone effects have been doing the "targeted but not really targeted" thing for decades. I don't see an issue with putting this effect on a removal spell once in a while.
I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck
This isn't true - I often spend my turn four on draw spells like Deep Analysis, FoF, or Steam Augury or a PW with no or little immediate board impact, or many other similar permanents. Playing a draw engine on turn four hasn't caused me to 'die to every aggro deck', at all, and our aggro decks certainly don't durdle around either. Seems like a poor premise to evaluate any four drop really. Card seems pretty good to me, although fringe at 360, but then again, so is Arena.
Well, the main difference between this and FoF or augury is obviously the instant speed. Those at least let you bluff counterspells. And with a 4cmc PW, hopefully it's something they feel compelled to answer so it ends up gaining you a bunch of life at worst. If you drop this on t4 you are going to be tapped out and wide open. It's just a concern I have. I don't think it's the only reason this card doesn't make the cut in my opinion, but being very bad (again, IMO) in controls worst match up is certainly something that concerns me when evaluating 4-drops. I think arena is substantially better than this card because of where they both sit on the curve. But obviously we won't really know until people start playing with it =D
Staff of Nin costs SIX mana. This card is assuredly a lot better, both in a vacuum and in the fact that it can go into non-control decks. I think a universally castable Arena is a tempting thing indeed, personally.
I agree that it's better than staff of nin, but I think the staff is a fine place to start for comparison's sake. I don't think staff is remotely close, so this has to be a lot better, and I don't think it's enough better. I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck, and I don't like in aggro for obvious reasons. I think it's good in midrange because you get to keep stocking up on value creatures and it makes you better at fighting through the control deck, but I don't know if that's enough to make it onto lists. I certainly don't think it's a terrible card, I just don't think it makes it in 450 and less lists.
Maybe it's good in powered where you can rush it out, but I have almost no experience with powered cube. It's also probably good enough for 450 lists that are slower than average.
I'm skeptical this is good enough for smaller lists. Haste on a clone is huge in lots of situations, but 4 mana and 2 colors is also huge. I think I'll pass for now and see if it impresses other people. Dack being clearly the best izzet card really hurt this guys chances of getting in.
It seems very good at clearing blockers for aggro (although missing wall of blossoms/omens when dismemeber doesn't is a big hit against it), and pretty bad in most other decks. Being able to remove a blocker and drop another threat is certainly relevant. I think this is testable and will be better the more you emphasize aggro in your list. I think I'll try and get a copy to test.
Well, it does draw 2 cards before staff of nin draws any (assuming you're hitting your land drops) but I still think this comparison is a good place to start. You never get the disk when you want it, so essentially it's a 4-mana phyrexian arena without the life loss and a cheaper staff of nin that can't ping. I think testable in bigger cubes, but a bit too slow for tight lists of smaller sizes. The extra mana over arena hurts it a lot, as does occupying the same place on the curve that control decks want to be wrathing.
Yeah this certainly seems testable to me. Not having haste and being 2 toughness obviously hurt it, as does throwing away the first token probably 80% of the time along with forcing your other goblind to attack even if you don't want them too on t3, but the potential of this into hellrider or hero of oxid ridge is just too juicy to pass up. Goblin guide into ash zealot into this into hellrider would certainly be living the dream. Hello potential for 6 pinging damage plus attacking for 12 on t4.
If my opponent has 2 True Name Nemesis on battlefield and I vote for "True Name Nemesis". Both TNN are exiled?
No, as it targets a specific permanent doesn't have the text "exile each/all permanents with that name".
Wow this card is good, obviously a solid cube card. Does this replace an O-ring effect? Does it replace Journey to Nowhere or Disenchant? Does white need another awesome versatile removal spell?
Even if you don't want a 3rd (or 4th is you run d sphere) O-ring effect, I think this card is pretty obviously the best O-ring variant we've seen. The only downside is you can't blink it for a better target like you can with o-ring and the mana cost is more restrictive, but the fact that it's no-restriction, never coming back, gets around hexproof and protection exiling makes it better. So, if you think you don't want more o-ring effects this should replace one of them.
However, I think white is perfectly happy to have a 3rd 0-ring effect in any cube. I think if I was to cut anything for this it would be dsphere, not because I think the 4th version of this effect is redundant or bad but just because it opens up room in the super tight guild sections for an additional, more interesting card.
Man, I definitely assumed it was a 0/0 when I first read it too and thought it was terrible. This guy definitely seems potent, and it's an ability we haven't really seen before. Will be great in decks that want to go hellbent and so can use the mana sink. I am super excited to try this.
It is an insane 1st pick though! Aside from getting a perfect triland, you get to collaborate with your left and right neighbour, making any signaling unnecessary, giving all three of you an advantage.
It's a fine first pick in pack one. It's probably a horrid first pick in pack 3 because your neighbors can probably guess what colors you're in. Also, while your neighbor to the left may be willing to work with you, your neighbor to the right can simply choose to screw you with relative impunity. Also, even if you first pick it, there's no guarantee that all three colors you pick will flow to you. You may say "but signaling," but if this is the first pick of the draft your partners have no idea what colors they are going to be in unless they picked a heavily colored card. What if I first picked jitte, or a sword, or a wurmcoil to your right? What am I going to signal to you? What if I pick white for you, then the next pack I see (the 2nd pick of the draft, remember) the obvious pick is white? Sure, there are times when you live the dream and the guys to your left and right both name colors they aren't picking, pass those colors and the one you name to you all draft netting you a perfect untapped triland, but there are also drafts where even the color YOU name with your first pick card doesn't flow for whatever reason (you name blue, guy to your left already first picked jace).
Frankly, I hope it convinces wizards to abandon the reserve list and actually make decks reasonable prices. This is supposed to be a game first, not an investment scheme where everyone is trying to get value and figure out the next card to spike in price.
Did you actually read the post you quoted? Because I specifically said the card did exactly what you are saying it does (and what it in fact does, as is stated explicitly on the card.) Let me quote the relevant part for you. "tempered by the understanding that while you are giving up a pick to get this, you're giving the people you're passing to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc pick for "free."" So yeah, I know exactly what the card does. And it's still way better than you are giving it credit for. You are getting an extra first pick when you take this card. Obviously first picking this card is not great, unless there is stone nothing for you in the pack, as you're trading a 1st pick for a 1st pick and giving everyone your passing too an extra pick. But taking this 6th or beyond is a great upgrade. You get a crack at a fresh pack and are able to take another first pick quality card from it.
That's certainly the easiest solution to this issue.
6/2/2014 3:58:04 PM
Ummmmm, wat? There are lots of other cases where taking this card is the right plan. This card can be incredibly strong in that it lets you trade a Xth pick for a first pick. If I am at my 6th or 7th pick, and there's a playable but average card for me and a lore seeker, you better believe I am taking the lore seeker for a shot at a much better card. This is especially true in pack one where a 1st pickable bomb can cement/change your colors. You are drastically undervaluing lore seeker's power in draft. Whether or not you want the bear in your deck should be a distant, distant second in your calculations as to whether or not to take lore seeker. Your calculation should be 99% if you think the average card in a booster pack is gonna be better than what is still left in this pack for you, tempered by the understanding that while you are giving up a pick to get this, you're giving the people you're passing to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc pick for "free."
Clone effects have been doing the "targeted but not really targeted" thing for decades. I don't see an issue with putting this effect on a removal spell once in a while.
Well, the main difference between this and FoF or augury is obviously the instant speed. Those at least let you bluff counterspells. And with a 4cmc PW, hopefully it's something they feel compelled to answer so it ends up gaining you a bunch of life at worst. If you drop this on t4 you are going to be tapped out and wide open. It's just a concern I have. I don't think it's the only reason this card doesn't make the cut in my opinion, but being very bad (again, IMO) in controls worst match up is certainly something that concerns me when evaluating 4-drops. I think arena is substantially better than this card because of where they both sit on the curve. But obviously we won't really know until people start playing with it =D
I agree that it's better than staff of nin, but I think the staff is a fine place to start for comparison's sake. I don't think staff is remotely close, so this has to be a lot better, and I don't think it's enough better. I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck, and I don't like in aggro for obvious reasons. I think it's good in midrange because you get to keep stocking up on value creatures and it makes you better at fighting through the control deck, but I don't know if that's enough to make it onto lists. I certainly don't think it's a terrible card, I just don't think it makes it in 450 and less lists.
Maybe it's good in powered where you can rush it out, but I have almost no experience with powered cube. It's also probably good enough for 450 lists that are slower than average.
Well, it does draw 2 cards before staff of nin draws any (assuming you're hitting your land drops) but I still think this comparison is a good place to start. You never get the disk when you want it, so essentially it's a 4-mana phyrexian arena without the life loss and a cheaper staff of nin that can't ping. I think testable in bigger cubes, but a bit too slow for tight lists of smaller sizes. The extra mana over arena hurts it a lot, as does occupying the same place on the curve that control decks want to be wrathing.
Even if you don't want a 3rd (or 4th is you run d sphere) O-ring effect, I think this card is pretty obviously the best O-ring variant we've seen. The only downside is you can't blink it for a better target like you can with o-ring and the mana cost is more restrictive, but the fact that it's no-restriction, never coming back, gets around hexproof and protection exiling makes it better. So, if you think you don't want more o-ring effects this should replace one of them.
However, I think white is perfectly happy to have a 3rd 0-ring effect in any cube. I think if I was to cut anything for this it would be dsphere, not because I think the 4th version of this effect is redundant or bad but just because it opens up room in the super tight guild sections for an additional, more interesting card.
Lol, at least when you first pick a huntmaster you know what colors you want to be =P
First picking this is purely aspirational.
It's a fine first pick in pack one. It's probably a horrid first pick in pack 3 because your neighbors can probably guess what colors you're in. Also, while your neighbor to the left may be willing to work with you, your neighbor to the right can simply choose to screw you with relative impunity. Also, even if you first pick it, there's no guarantee that all three colors you pick will flow to you. You may say "but signaling," but if this is the first pick of the draft your partners have no idea what colors they are going to be in unless they picked a heavily colored card. What if I first picked jitte, or a sword, or a wurmcoil to your right? What am I going to signal to you? What if I pick white for you, then the next pack I see (the 2nd pick of the draft, remember) the obvious pick is white? Sure, there are times when you live the dream and the guys to your left and right both name colors they aren't picking, pass those colors and the one you name to you all draft netting you a perfect untapped triland, but there are also drafts where even the color YOU name with your first pick card doesn't flow for whatever reason (you name blue, guy to your left already first picked jace).