MTG Salvation

Thanks for the candid feedback.

I probably should have included at least one emoji to convey the exaggeration of my feelings. I was going for a bit of comedy, there.

You're both right; we should not make any deckbuilding decisions based on emotion, especially frustration. (Fun, on the other hand ... )

That said, I'm still very interested in Shadow of Doubt. It does provide a unique out to some fringe situations, but more importantly, it is relevant in a surprising number of matchups.

Storm players will sometimes try an EOT Gifts Ungiven, especially if they think they'll draw out a Remand, and simply repeat on their own turn as part of the storm. We might even push them into it with Gigadrowse on the Upkeep.

Scapeshift players have little choice -- except for Silence or Vexing Shusher, LOL -- but to try to jam the card and dare us to have the counterspell. Given the opportunity (perhaps we "only left two mana open" after a "desperate" Serum Visions), they will try to get under our Cryptic Command, again having seen Remand already.

We're already so good against Tron, and Boomerang is essentially Time Walk, here, but they do employ at least eight "search spells" that are almost, if not quite, vital to their plans.

A less common matchup, Eldritch Evolution decks are scary-good at abusing their namesake card, and I don't know, but I heard Gaddock Teeg is sort of a problem for us, especially when they play him by "sacrificing" a creature that comes back bigger than before. (OK, fine, I see why you like Lightning Bolt. )

A less likely fit, but still interesting, is the aggressive nature by which Death's Shadow decks activate their numerous fetch lands. Again, Sinkhole and draw a card looks so delicious that it has to at least be worth considering.

All of these decks may acknowledge that we might sideboard in a Negate or two, but can they afford to try and play around it? They'll likely see a risky exchange as, at worst, a one-for-one that steals one of our counterspells and paves the way for their "real" plan. Adding a cantrip to that exchange helps us continue advancing our gameplan.

Also, yes, local meta. But wouldn't you expect to face any of these decks at any given tournament?

TL;DR: funny situations aside, I think this card is worth a serious look. It can set the opponent back a turn or two and hose some plans entirely, all while drawing a card, and at the very least cycle and take a chip off of Thing in the Ice. I'm going to try to get some testing in with it this week. Has anyone else tried it?

Wow, great ongoing conversation! I was going to multi-quote, but it would be a mess.

@timewalkinonsunshine (love the name!) Congrats on the solid finish, and for having the guts to take this deck to a GP. Looking forward to seeing your report & tech, especially your thoughts on splashing R and maindeck Commandeer.

@zcowan, Part the Waterveil, & spigushe, Great continued discussion on mono-U. I'm still on that plan, too. Please see my thoughts below.



A few notes:

Thing in the Ice -- zcowan is right, it's amazing. Props to whoever suggested it on this forum a few months ago. The most important point on this card: it's NOT just for aggro matchups. It adds a surprisingly fast clock to this deck, sometimes pulling off a win before we even start to combo. I lean heavily on it in matchups where I'm reluctant to let the match go long (i.e. Scapeshift, Storm, etc). I'll also play it more aggressively than some. If I suspect an end-of-turn Fatal Push or Dismember, I'll hold back; otherwise, I'll jam it early. If the OP spends resources dealing with it on his/her turn -- especially if I get to fetch a land -- they did that at the cost of developing their own plan, and I consider that a positive exchange. As good as this card is, I did recently cut the 4th copy to help fit the two pairs of Visions, and to reduce the chance of seeing early multiples.

Serum Visions -- I reluctantly added two copies after reading all of your thoughts and occasionally finding myself not using my resources efficiently. The cantrip and draw-smoothing are nice, and the chip off the block trigger is great. Our first priority is slowing down the opponent, though, and I want to make sure I'm focused on curving out those sometimes-mana-intensive spells.

Ancestral Vision -- I chose this over Howling Mine -- on the advice of Grim_Flayer, I think? -- and it's spectacular. This deck is designed to buy time, which works hand-in-hand with the Suspend mechanic. It also plays very well with frozen Horrors. Our favorite seven words are probably "end my turn, take the next one," but when you can follow that up with "transform Thing in the Ice, draw five," well, YOU try not to giggle.

No Jace or Tiago -- Two of the best cards in Modern, but, in my opinion, too mana-intensive for spells that only indirectly advance our plan, and they don't (directly) help transform Thing in the Ice. Yes, Snapcaster lets us replay a spell ... but that's a four- or five- or seven- mana play (that relies on said spell being available in the Graveyard), so shouldn't it just be a Cryptic or a turn spell? Yes, Jace lets us dig, but at the cost of four mana, that's probably a full turn of no interaction, so again, shouldn't he just be a spell? I consider Thing in the Ice as taking up these slots, and I'm very happy with the results.

No Mission Briefing -- Same logic as Snapcaster, above. I don't want to devote slots to replaying spells when those slots could just be spells themselves, thus costing less mana and relying less on the Graveyard.

A bit on Search for Azcanta -- Our deck is designed to abuse what would normally be "symmetrical" options such as Howling Mine, so forget about the fact that the OP draws some cards. For two mana, would you like to Surveil 1, draw 1, and eventually transform into an extra land if needed; or would you prefer drawing BOTH of those cards every turn, which probably nets you more than one extra land over three turns and gets you more spells in hand, too? This is a very cool enchantment, but I don't think it's as good as Howling Mine in our deck. (Add that to the list of things I never thought I'd say. LOL)

I've spent a lot of time on the sideboard plan. My approach is to look at what spells don't work well in each matchup, and then find cards that fill those voids while still advancing our overall plan. I don't want hosers, I want cards that are easy to cast and buy us time. Attached is what I have so far. Across the top, I've highlighted likely and highly-likely matchups in the local meta. In the sideboard section, I've highlighted good and very good cards for a given matchup. Numbers of course indicate cards I'd side out/in. I haven't found glaring weak points in some of the midrange matchups, yet. Any thoughts?

Looking forward to seeing your feedback. Thanks!

Quote from Grim_Flayer »

Keep up the solid discussion, everyone, and just so you all know, I've got a decent amount of U Turns content up on my fledgling channel now:

Deck Tech (lengthy and beginner-friendly, while hopefully offering insight to veterans as well)
Match vs Ponza (audio's a little garbly here but nothing too bad)
Match vs Abzan
Match vs Titanshift

Check 'em out, and me know if you have any suggestions. More matches to come!

Subscribed. Looking forward to checking it out!

Quote from zdarketethemighty »

I play 3 Fields of Ruin in addition to Mikokoro, Inkmoth and Gemstone. The cost is that sometimes you don't have enough blue sources, but still 17 out of 23 lands
It helps against tron, colonnade, inkmoth nexus and so many other decks.

I like all of these lands, but we need to consider the math. In case you haven't, check out the following from Frank Karsten:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-lands-do-you-need-to-consistently-hit-your-land-drops/
These articles really cut to the core of mana-base math. I find them fascinating, and I look to them every time I build or evaluate a deck. It's must-read material for any magic player.

I want to apply the math and conclusions from the first article to your build. Specifically, 17 out of 23 lands being blue sources.

When does our ratio of blue sources count most? Two spells: Cryptic Command and Gigadrowse. The latter benefits from every land producing U, so it's tough to estimate how many sources we really want at any given time, except to say "all of them." Until they print a blue Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, we're going to have to live with playing magic like everyone else.

I think Cryptic Command gives us a clear-cut minimum: we want three blue sources by Turn 4. In other words, if I have Cryptic in my hand, I want to be able to cast it as soon as possible. Karsten tells us that if we have 22 blue-producing lands in our deck, we have a 90% chance of having UUU available to us on Turn 4 (on the play). Checking the math, you'll see that running five less sources cuts your odds by about 20%. That's a hell of a hit; 70% AFTER MULLIGANS is not overly-reliable.

What helps your odds?

First, Field of Ruin is, itself, a fetch land of sorts. The problem is, you have to invest mana to do it, and we're already counting on Dictate of Kruphix at the same mana slot, and we probably can't afford the opponent another "free turn." Have you found that disrupting their mana on T3 consistently buys you a turn?

Second, Serum Visions helps a LOT. By my math, you can count every copy of SV as 3/4 of a land. It's a rough estimate, based on the idea of playing it a turn BEFORE you need the land, allowing you to take into account the Scry.

Third, Remand, and our Mine effects. Each extra card drawn gives you about another 7% edge ... but you have to draw and play that card. Karsten suggests counting cantrip effects as 0.25 lands. (He doesn't mention Mine effects, because nobody is crazy enough to run those.)

So, assuming you run four Serum Visions and 4 Remand, you could make an argument that you're effectively running 17 + 3 + 1 = 21 blue sources, plus a bit of a bump for the mines and Field of Ruin. I think it's quite a risk, though. Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce can put quite a damper on those plans.

I'm curious, though. What led you to Field of Ruin? Which matchups do you like it, and why? What turn do you ideally find yourself activating it?

Quote from zcowan »

Alright guys! Since I always am here bouncing ideas around for the deck, I figured I should share my excitement here lol...
I finally finished building my all time favorite deck - High Tide for Legacy!! It has a lot of similar components to this deck in that it is an off the radar combo but is a lot of fun to play (and it is the reason I got into Taking Turns)

So with that being said, I have gotten all nostalgic and may go to a mono blue version of taking turns for a bit.. Was wondering the group's thoughts on As Foretold taking the place of Howling Mine and going for more cantrips and more Ancestral Vision?
Also what is your views on Boomerang? Have you tried it @GrimFlayer? I used to run it a while back and it wasn't right for the meta but now im thinking it may be a bit better since decks like Jeskai/UW are trying to slam down a Teferi/Jace and run away with the game.. Seems like Boomerang into exhaustion would be perfect

Congrats on building High Tide. Just watch out for the little dudes with 200-card decks.

I'm not a fan of As Foretold. We don't need more card disadvantage. It requires us to essentially take a turn off simply for the ability to play others cards for free. We need every card slot and every bit of mana devoted to either extra turns or slowing down the opponent.

I have absolutely loved Boomerang; you may have seen I run 4 in my 75. I've considered Echoing Truth, but honestly can't get past the idea of bouncing the OP's land in the early turns. It completely hoses any Tron variant -- against E-Tron it may even be better to bounce an Eldrazi Temple. I consider it a Time Walk when played before their T3. Bouncing a land (early or not) can also be very effective in the control matchup. (Turns out, they like mana almost as much as we do, and will sometimes enter a counter-war over it.)

Boomerang can also put Gurmag Angler or Hollow One back in the OP's hand for multiple turns.

Compared to Echoing Truth, I prefer the ability to affect lands over the chance that there are multiple copies of the same high-priority threat on the field. (Gigadrowse, Exhaustion, and Cryptic Command cover that situation.)

Quote from Spigushe »

Hi everyone !

When Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned, I switched my win-condition to it because it helps a lot digging the deck and it gives some help to get the board in check. Recently, I added Nexus of Fate to the list and I haven't played much these days. I would like to hear what you have to say about my list as I do not have much time to playtest by now and I will attend a PPTQ soon with it.

Here's the list I'm currently playing :

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
// 23 Lands 1 Flooded Strand 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Polluted Delta 1 Scalding Tarn 15 Island 1 Snow-Covered Island 2 Gemstone Caverns 1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea // 9 Mines 1 Howling Mine 1 Search for Azcanta 4 Dictate of Kruphix 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor	// 10 Turns 4 Time Warp 3 Temporal Mastery 2 Nexus of Fate 1 Part the Waterveil // 14 Interaction 3 Gigadrowse 3 Exhaustion 2 Snapcaster Mage 3 Remand 3 Cryptic Command // 4 Cantrips 4 Serum Visions	// Sideboard 1 Surgical Extraction 1 Dispel 3 Chalice of the Void 2 Negate 2 Ceremonious Rejection 2 Damping Sphere 3 Thing in the Ice 1 Search for Azcanta

I personally don't run Jace, The Mind Sculptor because I've crammed in 4 Thing in the Ice into my main, and need all the spells I can get. You're not going that route, so I'd take the advice of others here and run 1-2 of the 'walker. Be careful, though. I don't see him as a card that buys you any time; he's more of a setup/wincon, if I'm not mistaken. Three may be too many.

I LOVE Nexus of Fate. I had been running two, but trimmed it to one due to the high mana cost. With 4 Temporal Mastery (if you want a miracle, you have to play the odds), I found myself stuck on mana a little too often, so I switched one Nexus to a third Part the Waterveil. That definitely helped the curve -- several games, I played a Part with exactly 6 land on the table, where I couldn't have played Nexus. I also had one game where that single Nexus showed up THREE TIMES! With Jace, maybe you want two of them for the shuffle.

I can't emphasize this enough: DITCH THE FETCH LANDS. Your life is a precious resource, and there's no reason to waste it fetching basic islands, when the fetches could just be those islands. Thinning your deck isn't a viable strategy, here, since we need at least seven lands to truly roll. The shuffling after Jace's Brainstorm is neat, but how many dead cards do we really have? And we draw them all, anyway.

Howling Mine may just be better than Search for Azcanta (draw both instead of 'yarding one). The latter is an OK interaction with Jace's Brainstorm, but as with the fetch lands, it's probably not worth it.

I was going to say that 10 "Turn" spells may be too few, but Nexus of Fate really changes that math. It's fascinating, and I hadn't thought of it until just now. It might allow us to maintain the odds of chaining turns while reducing the chance of having too many in-hand before we have the mana. I can't wait to sit down and work out THAT math! (Anybody got Frank Karsten's number?)

Personally, I don't like Snapcaster Mage in our deck. (Gonna catch a lot of flak here, I think.) What are we snapping? We're playing on the brink, trying to start a chain before the opponent simply wins because we haven't interacted enough. By the time we can snap something effective, like an Exhaustion, Gigadrowse, or Cryptic Command, we have enough mana that we'd rather he just be another turn spell, or one of those spells. I'd rather your Snaps be a 4th Gigadrowse and a 4th Remand. The early turns are so vital, and if you're spending one of them casting Serum Visions and another casting Jace, I think you need to maximize the chances of delaying the oppoonent on Turns 2 and 3.

Good luck, and let us know how you do!

Guys, kudos for keeping up a very intelligent and productive conversation. I've been curious about this deck for over a year, now, and giving it serious thought for a few months thanks in large part to the discussion here.

Here's what I've gleaned from the comments on this forum, and my own brainstorming. I'd really value your feedback.

1) I like the Mono-U version. We're not trying to control the board forever, just buy time until we "go off," and Blue is VERY good at delay tactics. When considering our life as a resource, I don't want to spend it on getting W sources.

2) I LOVE Thing in the Ice in this deck! At worst, it slows down the opponent's development when deployed early. If they Path to Exile it, it's like we just cast Rampant Growth and made them discard a card. Most often, it ends the game far more quickly than our other options.

3) Ancestral Vision might be better than Howling Mine as the fifth card-draw spell.

4) Because Modern decks can usually win unopposed by turn 4 or earlier, I think we need to be able to count on two "disruptive" spells in our first four turns. Run the math, and you'll see if we have 16 of those spells, we have an 82% chance of drawing two of them by the time we've drawn 10 cards. Every additional disruption card in the deck adds about 3%. Every additional card we draw (or filter) adds 4%. The problem is, card draw spells only work if we draw and cast them, so when building the deck, cantrip spells like Remand count as about 1/4 of a card drawn. (Serum Visions, by my math, counts as a full card drawn due to the number of cards it exposes you to.)

Here's the list I ran this weekend.



In all my playtesting and two FNM's, I've beaten Humans (when they didn't draw many Kitesail Freebooters), Affinity, Scapeshift, Tron, E-Tron, UW Control, and some other brews. Favorite moments: 1) vs UW Control when the OP tapped out at the end of my turn and mumbled 'I don't think there's an instant turn spell' and I smiled and cast Nexus of Fate and never gave him another untap step. 2) vs E-Tron on Turn 5 after going to turns ... and taking ALL FIVE OF THEM!

I've lost, though, to Jeskai Pyromancer (I guess it's still a thing) Humans (when they draw lots of Kitesail Freebooters), Grixis Death's Shadow, and UG Emerge. I could attribute at least some of each loss to mana screw/flood, but the common thread was they all had very disruptive gameplans. I also imagine having trouble with the speed of Bogles and Infect, thus the sideboard choices.

I'm considering dropping the Boomerangs for a second Ancestral Vision and a Search for Azcanta.

So ... any thoughts or suggestions?

I've found success vs control by continuously pumping out threats and making use of hard-to-kill creatures and card advantage. I think one of Abzan's major strengths is that it provides all of these things (plus life gain and removal). Some of my favorites vs control:

Fleecemane Lion - early punch that they MUST kill; late-game bomb
Rakshasa Deathdealer - early punch that regenerates through most removal, and can win late
Courser of Kruphix - CARD ADVANTAGE; yes they'll see your draws, but an extra card every 2-3 turns puts them on their heels
Siege Rhino - cliche but effective
Reaper of the Wilds - Hexproof beater that forces unfavorable blocks.
Soul of Innistrad - CARD ADVANTAGE FROM THE 'YARD!
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - at least a two-for-one threat
Nissa, Worldwaker - a must-kill two-for-one
Thoughtseize - setup card: do NOT play it until you have another card to play THIS TURN
Whip of Erebos - CARD ADVANTAGE
Abzan Charm - CARD ADVANTAGE AT INSTANT SPEED; play on their EOT to set up your next turn, or in response to Dig
Erase - because you know they're running Banishing Light

My least-favorite card that everybody plays is Wingmate Roc. It looks so amazing in a vacuum: five mana for TWO 3/4 flyers with life gain. What's not to love? Well, against a super-fast matchup, they're too slow. Against most midrange or control decks, triggering Raid is no guarantee. And then there's the WW, when we also want BB and GG. I've actually dropped them in favor of Reaper of the Wilds, and I've never looked back.

Quote from DoctorLobo »

I was curious on your guy's opinions on if it's ever worth risking a faultier manabase and side out Caryatids. Against U/B Control, one of Abzan's weakest match ups, I'm torn between siding them out so that I have more consistent threats later in the game, or keeping them in so I can attempt to ramp into bigger threats before U/B gets online. Another example is against the slower variants of B/G decks, as top-decking a caryatid later in the game is always painful. What is everyone's thoughts on if they are ever alright to put in the SB games 2 and 3?

That is exactly why several of us on this forum don't run Caryatids at all. The tempo loss and poor topdecking are simply not worth the extra 5-10% efficiency, and "one turn sooner" doesn't matter in games that run long.

I've just started playtesting this deck, and it came out strong vs Esper control and MBD. Still need to see how it runs vs Jeskai Tempo and Abzahn Midrange, but the pace at which threats come out should make a huge difference.



I chose to minimize ETB-tapped lands because I love to Scry, but NOT in a deck that's all about crushing power coming in fast. Lower chances of tapped lands means greater chance of brutal T3 plays like Sarkhan/Stormbreath Dragon, Sagu Mauler, or even Xenagos AND Polukranos! I'll pay a couple of life to get the monsters out a turn sooner. Final count before mana dorks: 16G sources, 15R, and 10U, only TWO of which come into play tapped. That's more than enough to support our needs.

I'm still testing the main, so SB isn't really defined, yet. The cards listed offer an all-in transformative focused on Temur Ascendancy. I think this warrants some discussion.

There's been a lot of talk about Courser vs Temur Ascendancy. Ascendancy feels like something that could really be abused, but it needs a LOT of setup. Courser triggers off of something we always do, and for free. Once Courser is on the table, its effect can't be countered; Ascendancy makes any counterspell a 2-for-one by preventing ETB card draw. And here's the bottom line: almost every list I've seen runs more land than creatures with 4 power, so Courser is more likely to give you card advantage, and is thus the more reliable card-draw engine. Plus, the Courser plan allows us to play actual spells in the deck, spells that can counter sweepers, destroy opposing creatures, and/or throw more damage to the opponent's face.

There may be a situation, though, where you'd consider dropping Charm for Ascendancy, dropping burn spells for Hour of Need, switching Courser to Boon Satyr, and maybe even Sarkhan for Arbor Colossus. That puts us in the precarious position of relying solely on our creatures to answer opposing threats, but it gives us an immensely aggressive deck with 21 creatures of 4+ Power, as well as two Hour of Need, which creates one or more as long as we have mana dorks or satyr tokens willing to take one for the team. Add to that Savage Knuckleblade's bounce ability, and you've got a good chance at someone calling shenanigans. Note, however, that with all that focus, we still only have as many monsters as lands!

I think that's a very strong case to avoid the Ascendancy plan except in very specific situations: decks with creatures the same size/smaller than ours, with damage-based removal (b/c generally our creatures' high toughness can absorb it), no board sweep that we'd want to counter, and few, if any, counterspells. Anyone else thinking about Jeskai Tempo? Do we need to transform vs that matchup?

Wow, looks like our favorite deck just became Tier 1 at yesterday's SCG Open in St. Louis. If you count Kent Ketter's Jund variant, FIVE of the top 8, including first place, were Monsters decks -- with a 6th (the only Devotion variant) placing 10th. Somewhere, Borborygmos is smiling.

Interestingly, there's still some amazing diversity in builds.

The aforementioned Ketter splashed 9 black-producing lands alongside 4 Sylvan Caryatid to support 4 Reaper of the Wilds and 2 Dreadbore in the main, along with a mostly black sideboard. I'm not sure I like the splash, as it takes us out of the aggressive position and adds more answer-type cards, but Ketter has some experience with Gruul Monsters, so it's worth watching what he does next.

The other decks had the typical key cards, and the typical varying quantities of Caryatids, Mortars, Oozes, 3-drop creatures, gods, removal/damage spells, and planeswalkers not named Domri. Most fascinating to me was Jonathan Habel's first-place finish, with NO new BNG cards in the main. He passed on Courser of Kruphix and Xenagos, God of Revels! (Maybe his friends were borrowing them?)

Here's a breakdown of the main-deck lists. (All played 23 land.) After the cardname, you'll see four numbers, representing the quantity appearing in the main deck of each of the pure G/R Monsters decks in the top 8. The columns appear in the order they placed: 1st place Habel, 3d place Cook, 4th VanMeter, 7th Nyber.

A few questions come to mind when looking at the deck lists side-by-side.

1) If we're trying to ramp, why not 4 Caryatid? I like the 4th to help my chances of accelerating, but please, convince me otherwise if you can.

2) How many Scavenging Ooze, if any? Probably the most-varied card on our list. I personally don't like it, because in multiples it gets worse, and it's really no bargain for the mana investment. If graveyards become relevant again, maybe I'll sideboard it.

3a) Courser... I thought the verdict was out, until I noticed the first- and third- place decks didn't run Courser. For now, I'll blame that on the new meta, and stay with Courser as my personal fave. Its synergy with Domri and Chandra is just so powerful!

3b) ...Fanatic... It gives the opponent a choice, and that's usually bad. Still, it's an aggressive beater no matter which option they choose.

3c) ...or Boon Satyr? This seems like it'd still be the best choice in some matchups; how about as a sideboard option to replace Mortars vs control?

4) Xenagos, God of Revels Do most of us agree to run two? It feels like a "win more" card, but at five mana maybe it's just "win." Not hard to swing with him, either.

5) Chandra, the Pyromaster I see her in every sideboard, and a lot of us here like her in the main. We've got enough red to support her mana cost, and her synergy with Courser and Domri is fantastic. Anybody know of a bad matchup, or a reason why not to run her main?

6) Flesh//Blood or a 4th Mizzium Mortars? As a general rule, I hate singletons. If you don't need/want the card often, don't play it. If you want to see it most of the time, run more than one. I understand the reach Blood (or the fused combo) provides, but is it necessary? Seems like a possible card to side in vs control; but then again, it's not a threat by itself. Mortars seems to be growing more and more useful, how about just 4 of them?

I'm very anxious to fine-tune the new version of this deck. Let's get some good discussion going, and then move on to the sideboard.

Comment Hidden

The problem that seems to arise here (on the Limited end) to me is that the guilds whose mechanics synergize would have an advantage. Golgari would be rolling in it being able to dredge scavenge cards AND fuel undergrowth. And Selesnya would be extremely strong with a double convoke card pool and populate.

The "Ultra-Block Constructed" version of this idea is interesting, however.

I see no reason in the world not to do this. It seems like it would be pretty fun, at least until the format got solved.

So this may be wrong in practice, but I actually don't deploy Thing in the Ice until I am in my combo.. since it is only 2 mana to cast and flips so easily in the build, I wait until the coast is clear with a gigaadrowse or remand mana plus time warp effect/exhaustion. It has been very similar to waiting on Part the Waterveil but a lot more consistent

Quote from zcowan »

@Grim Flayer
I agree with that wall of text haha. I ran the As Foretold build a while ago and it was fun but there were situations in which you just cast a time warp for free but then had no big follow up with your mana. That being said, I think I may go back to mono blue for a while. The white splash has been really strong but everyone in my area expects it lol

Yep, As Foretold builds seems to have a higher rate of fizzling from what I can tell. (Note that failing to continue chaining Turns doesn’t always qualify as fizzling, so long as you can shut them down when you pass back via Gigadrowse/Exhaustion/Cryptic.)

also can you post your current list please?

Sure thing:



(Since Commandeer is still bugged on MTGO last I checked, I’ve tried various things in its place: a Relic of Progenitus, a second Negate, a third Truth. Considering picking up a second AV for that slot, we’ll see.)

Also, stay tuned; I started up a YouTube channel last week, and as soon as my new microphone arrives (should be 2-3 days from now), the first thing I’m going to do is record an extensive deck tech regarding this build, followed by uploading a couple matches with it (I played some sweet ones yesterday, so hopefully the MTGO replay system doesn’t spaz out on me). I’ll keep you posted!

@Grim Flayer
I agree with that wall of text haha. I ran the As Foretold build a while ago and it was fun but there were situations in which you just cast a time warp for free but then had no big follow up with your mana. That being said, I think I may go back to mono blue for a while. The white splash has been really strong but everyone in my area expects it lol

also can you post your current list please?

Quote from charlieguide »

Guys, kudos for keeping up a very intelligent and productive conversation. I've been curious about this deck for over a year, now, and giving it serious thought for a few months thanks in large part to the discussion here.

Glad to hear it! This type of constant feedback and discussion is especially nice when we're playing a rogue deck like this one.

Here's what I've gleaned from the comments on this forum, and my own brainstorming. I'd really value your feedback.

1) I like the Mono-U version. We're not trying to control the board forever, just buy time until we "go off," and Blue is VERY good at delay tactics. When considering our life as a resource, I don't want to spend it on getting W sources.

Same. Life is a resource in this deck more than in most Modern ones. People are also way less prepared (in terms of both card choice and experience) for the type of interaction Mono-U brings to bear. That said, the W and B splashes are still just as strong IMO, but you've correctly identified the reasons to want to stay within the bounds of what U has to offer.

2) I LOVE Thing in the Ice in this deck! At worst, it slows down the opponent's development when deployed early. If they Path to Exile it, it's like we just cast Rampant Growth and made them discard a card. Most often, it ends the game far more quickly than our other options.

Thing is off-the-charts incredible here. I see that you're maindecking a full playset (@purklefluff also mentioned considering Thing in the main a little while back). AS a BGx player, I still can't quite get behind this. Assassin's Trophy will certainly be the cause of a big upswing in such decks--even if it's only temporary--and IMO, straight up BG Rock will gain and retain the most meta share when all it said and done. This is bad news for maindeck Thing, because Golgari decks want to play 4x Fatal Push and 4x Trophy (plus other removal like Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil) for the most part. So while I don't think Thing in the main is strictly incorrect or anything, I will say that we gain a lot of percentage points by blanking opponents' G1 removal with them in the side instead.

3) Ancestral Vision might be better than Howling Mine as the fifth card-draw spell. [/card]

I think it is, at least in the context of your build with the Things main. For more traditional builds, I have come to like a split of both. 4x Dictate supplemented by 1-2 each of JtMS, AV, and Mine seems like the stock recipe we want to be working from.

4) Because Modern decks can usually win unopposed by turn 4 or earlier, I think we need to be able to count on two "disruptive" spells in our first four turns. Run the math, and you'll see if we have 16 of those spells, we have an 82% chance of drawing two of them by the time we've drawn 10 cards. Every additional disruption card in the deck adds about 3%. Every additional card we draw (or filter) adds 4%. The problem is, card draw spells only work if we draw and cast them, so when building the deck, cantrip spells like Remand count as about 1/4 of a card drawn. (Serum Visions, by my math, counts as a full card drawn due to the number of cards it exposes you to.)

Interesting. I agree that you usually either need to interact twice before you go off, or you need to have one piece of interaction line up perfectly (T4 Exhaustion on the play against a pure aggro deck after end-stepping a T3 Dictate, Remand against a durdly midrange start, etc.).

Here's the list I ran this weekend.

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Land 20 Island 3 Radiant Fountain Disruptive Spells 4 Gigadrowse 4 Remand 2 Boomerang 3 Exhaustion 3 Cryptic Command	Creatures 4 Thing in the Ice Card Draw 1 Ancestral Vision 4 Dictate of Kruphix Turn Spells 4 Time Warp 4 Temporal Mastery 2 Part the Waterveil 2 Nexus of Fate	Sideboard 3 Dragon's Claw 4 Downsize 2 Boomerang 2 Negate 2 Dispel 1 Flashfreeze 1 Hibernation

I like a lot of what's going on here. Always been a fan of Flashfreeze in general. 4 Boomerang in the 75 might be a little high. I see what you're after with Dragon's Claw, but Chalices will be an incredible upgrade for those slots. Chalice iswithout question one of the most powerful cards we have access to; it's incredible in a lot of otherwise very questionable matchups. 12 extra turn spells is also a tad high for my tastes--I run 10 and would also consider 9 or 11--especially with Things around. You don't necessarily need to chain more than an extra turn or two together in this setup.

In all my playtesting and two FNM's, I've beaten Humans (when they didn't draw many Kitesail Freebooters), Affinity, Scapeshift, Tron, E-Tron, UW Control, and some other brews. Favorite moments: 1) vs UW Control when the OP tapped out at the end of my turn and mumbled 'I don't think there's an instant turn spell' and I smiled and cast Nexus of Fate and never gave him another untap step. 2) vs E-Tron on Turn 5 after going to turns ... and taking ALL FIVE OF THEM!

I've lost, though, to Jeskai Pyromancer (I guess it's still a thing) Humans (when they draw lots of Kitesail Freebooters), Grixis Death's Shadow, and UG Emerge. I could attribute at least some of each loss to mana screw/flood, but the common thread was they all had very disruptive gameplans. I also imagine having trouble with the speed of Bogles and Infect, thus the sideboard choices.

I'm considering dropping the Boomerangs for a second Ancestral Vision and a Search for Azcanta.

So ... any thoughts or suggestions?

I was also going to say that I'm not a huge fan of Nexus, but admittedly it's pretty sweet to be able to end step a time walk lol. Some posters ITT are fans of Search; I'm not really one of them, but it's certainly viable. The second AV sounds great though!

Quote from charlieguide »

Quote from zcowan »

So couple side notes @charlieguide; not sure if cost is a factor
But since you are running mono blue you can afford some leniency in your mana base.. I would recommend trying to run: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Mikokoro Center of the Sea, and Gemstone Caverns/Inkmoth Nexus possibly over time.. They all do a really good job at smoothing out areas in the deck while not digging into spots reserved for key spells

Also, I would probably cut a cryptic for another draw engine.. Ancestral Vision alone isn't reliable unless you are chaining turns since they will most likely outpace you.. I would recommend at least one Howling Mine.. even though im not a fan of it since it dies to SOOOO much artifact hate, it does do the job efficiently when it resolves and your opponent passes back even once. Plus cryptic is late game interaction honestly so running more than 2 in a deck like this throws off the curve

Other than that, everything looks right on! Glad our discussions have helped in a way! I honestly love this deck to the point where even losses are fun. Its just such a niche combo that people are never expecting and when you win you feel unbeatable. It reminds me of High Tide in legacy in that sense

Thanks for the feedback.

No, budget is not a factor. I was trying to keep it a clean plan and not get too cute. I thought Part the Waterveil and Thing in the Ice made Inkmoth Nexus unnecessary, but you're the second person to mention it in as many days. I'll give it a shot. Gemstone Caverns and the draw-lands have been on my radar, too. That would mean cutting Radiant Fountains; what is your experience in the burn matchup? Can we afford not to have them, there?

Radiant Fountain is a nice one without doubt, but for me it doesn't quite make the cut. I'd say, in order of priority:

1) Mikokoro and Caverns. Both are must-haves. You know those games where you're interacting really well but you don't have a payoff for interacting in the form of Thing or a Mine effect? Mikokoro can fill that void incredibly well, and bridge you into a stage of the game where you find one. As for Caverns, quite simply, the card steals games. Taking back the play is incredibly powerful in this deck. T1 Thing, T1 Chalice, T2 Dictate, T3 Cryptic, etc.
2) Inkmoth Nexus. Not strictly needed, unlike the abovementioned pair, but still strong enough to warrant a slot. It's basically a free inclusion that functions as alternate wincon (which is appealing since you aren't playing JtMS), sped-up wincon (relevant for eliminating the rare occasions where we totally brick in the late game), and chump blocker in a pinch (I've won a hopeless-looking game before by chumping with Inky to stay alive, topdecking a Miracled Temporal Mastery, resolving a JtMS, and winning from there).
3) Radiant Fountain. Another "free" inclusion, expect that it starts to come at a cost when you consider the 2-3 (Caverns is sometimes colored, sometimes a Wastes) colorless sources above. I actually rate its effect somewhat highly, just slightly below Inkmoth. You could try to play 4-5 of these utility lands, but that may be greedy.

I'm not sure I agree on cutting a Cryptic Command, though. I've relied on it heavily; Turn 4 is almost always either that or Gigadrowse.

I'm with you here. Most people don't advise more than 2 Cryptics, but I have loved 3 (and even wanted to play 4 from the outset :D).

[quote]If I put the Howling Mine back in, would you suggest cutting an AV or Search for Azcanta?

Are you comfortable with the absence of Serum Visions?

AV > Search in your build...and yeah, with 4x Thing around, Serum should honestly be a 4-of as well IMO. Both cards are great in the deck and they have incredible synergy together: Serum is our cheapest spell that can remove a counter from Thing, and it also helps you find yet more ways to work toward flipping him.

Funny anecdote re: High Tide. Back in the late 90's when it was in Standard, I had a friend who loved running that deck. He once sat down next to a first-timer who had a huge deck of unsleeved cards. My friend went off and demonstrated the combo (Palinchron, I think?), then arbitrarily picked a number, "mill ... 100 cards." The kid started COUNTING OFF CARDS and when he got to 100, he looked at my friend and shrugged, because he STILL HAD 20 CARDS IN HIS DECK! My friend lost because he was unable to restart the combo!

Lol, when your kitchen table pile next-levels the opposition.

Quote from AntoCriv »

Alright so I had my PPTQ Sunday! My record was: 5-1
5 turns and then top4 (we were 16 players).

First turn: 2-1 (Gw value + combo devoted druid/vizir)
Nothing to say here..He can only win if i have no counter/gigadrowse and if he combo at turn 3
Second turn: 2-0 (UWr control)
Second game was amazing becouse i win without krufix/mine with about 15 lands each, with very huge counterwar but at the end i win with my animated 6/6 land.
Third turn: 1-2 (Uw spirits)
Not an easy MU
Four turn: 2-0 (Uw Control)
Very easy MU
Fifth turn: ID vs Burn
Top4: 2-0 (GW value of the first turn's guy)
He cry a lot becouse a MIRACLE 2 time but one time i scryed top one.
Final: I concede to burn player becouse i can't go to Rome in December becouse work

BTW, the deck is very solid and has great MU versus almost all control decks.
Negative MU: burn, spirits and all decks with tasigur/counter early.
I play:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Lands: 23 17 island 1 nexus 1 mikokoro 1 asylum 1 gemstone caverns 1 oboro 1 another blue lands like oboro but i dont remember Creature: 1 1 snapcaster mage Spells: 36 4 Time warp 4 Temporal mastery 3 part the waterveil 4 remand 3 cryptic command 4 serum visions 2 howling mine 4 dictate of krufix 4 gigadrowse 3 exhaustion 1 search for azcanta	Sideboard: 15 3 thing in the ice 1 hurkyl's recall 2 damping sphere 1 swan song 1 negate 1 dispel 1 commandeer 2 surgical extraction 1 echoing truth

Nice job! I really like the look of your list. How would you rate Damping Sphere overall as a component of the sideboard?

Quote from Volttikoira »

Good job AntoCriv!

Speaking of spirits, my meta concists mostly of UW control (yay!) and bant spirits (boo...). How would you guys sideboard against spirits to have a fighting chance? I've found Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass to be decent against Mausoleum Wanderer, but other than that, how would you guys make that match up bearable? I myself run a white splash for sideboard options FYI

You're in luck, because the Aether Vial decks (Humans, Spirits, Merfolk, D&T) are one of the most compelling reasons to splash a color. At the risk of stating the obvious, bring in anything that kills dudes. A nice mix of wraths, spot removal, and Thing to race should do it, but I'd need to see a list to elaborate further.

Quote from zcowan »

Alright guys! Since I always am here bouncing ideas around for the deck, I figured I should share my excitement here lol...
I finally finished building my all time favorite deck - High Tide for Legacy!! It has a lot of similar components to this deck in that it is an off the radar combo but is a lot of fun to play (and it is the reason I got into Taking Turns)

So with that being said, I have gotten all nostalgic and may go to a mono blue version of taking turns for a bit.. Was wondering the group's thoughts on As Foretold taking the place of Howling Mine and going for more cantrips and more Ancestral Vision?
Also what is your views on Boomerang? Have you tried it @GrimFlayer? I used to run it a while back and it wasn't right for the meta but now im thinking it may be a bit better since decks like Jeskai/UW are trying to slam down a Teferi/Jace and run away with the game.. Seems like Boomerang into exhaustion would be perfect

Congrats on building High Tide, that is one sweet deck.

I love Boomerang in here. My most recent tweaks have unfortunately seen it fall by the wayside, but it's a fantastic card, and as you say it's well positioned right now. I'm not so much a fan of the As Foretold builds, however. Our deck is amazingly consistent given the extraordinary nature of what we're trying to do (resolve a 5/6/7-mana Sorcery with a mine effect in play, and this "combo" doesn't even win the game on the spot, just improves our odds significantly)--but it loses a lot of consistency with As Foretold and the full 4 AV in the mix IMO. That particular synergy strikes me a tad win-more, but I also freely admit that my own biases are at play here. I've always hedged toward consistency and value over higher-risk, higher-reward builds.

Quote from Spigushe »

Hi everyone !

When Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned, I switched my win-condition to it because it helps a lot digging the deck and it gives some help to get the board in check. Recentl, I added Nexus of Fate to the list and I haven't played much these days. I would like to here what you have to say about my list as I do not have much time to playtest by now and I will attend a PPTQ soon with it.

Here's the list I'm currently playing :

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
// 23 Lands 1 Flooded Strand 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Polluted Delta 1 Scalding Tarn 15 Island 1 Snow-Covered Island 2 Gemstone Caverns 1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea // 9 Mines 1 Howling Mine 1 Search for Azcanta 4 Dictate of Kruphix 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor	// 10 Turns 4 Time Warp 3 Temporal Mastery 2 Nexus of Fate 1 Part the Waterveil // 14 Interaction 3 Gigadrowse 3 Exhaustion 2 Snapcaster Mage 3 Remand 3 Cryptic Command // 4 Cantrips 4 Serum Visions	// Sideboard 1 Surgical Extraction 1 Dispel 3 Chalice of the Void 2 Negate 2 Ceremonious Rejection 2 Damping Sphere 3 Thing in the Ice 1 Search for Azcanta

The list looks very solid to me. My big question is over Nexus of Fate. With JtMS as your primary wincon, the reshuffle effect is pretty nice, but I still think you could get away with switching one of them out for either a second Part or a fourth Temporal.

I myself play a somewhat different-looking sideboard to yours, but in the context of your JtMS focus most of the choices make sense. Echoing Truth and a second Surgical are advised. Let us know how the PPTQ goes!

GREAT job beating that guy, can not STAND salty losers! Makes the next 3 minutes awkward.

**** it, SCG got my $4, here's the article:

http://imgur.com/oT7MRc9

Quote from Redirus91 »

Just saw this
"Mike Sigrist
Hey Frank. My initial thoughts on Thought-Knot were its kind of a trap to include in a ramp deck because it still gets outclassed by most creatures these days and we really need to be controlling the board almost every turn or ramping to something that can. I talked some with Steve Rubin about the card and he wanted to try it and I told him my gut says its not going to be good enough. He personally tested it and came to the same conclusion. I think it might be viable as a sb options once the SB is condensed and the metagame shakes out and is more easily defined. I think its a fine card against Rally and maybe OK against Bant but it also comes down to just being able to cast it consistently. The deck isn't exactly designed to be able to cast it on turn 3 with ease, like the green/colorless version is. Hope that answers your question."

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32403_Return-Of-The-Ramp.html#comments

exactly

Here is another take from StarCityGames, you have to scroll down a few decks for RG ramp http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32411_My-Current-Weapons-Of-Choice.html