Lich Lord feels a tad overcosted, but I'm sure someone will find a way to have fun with it in casual (Thinking about Conjurer's Closet, but Whip of Erebos is still better).
Demon on the other hand is neat, I think the white makes sense with it gaining vigilance and such. But alas I feel Falkenrath Aristocrat was simply better; this guy will die to removal like everyone else and sacrificing a guy for haste before it gets killed seems like a bad two-for-one to me. Although his base stats seem aggressive enough that a midrange deck might use him for just that alone and the sacrificing ability will be icing on the cake. He also dodges bile blight and anger of gods so I could actually see decks running him to take advantage of that in standard.
I approve of both! They're cool cards and great art as always
I personally think that it fits the Mardu flavor-wise. Burn a creature, assemble an army quickly, or proactively remove a game changing threat by discarding it. Fits the colors too. The cost is about right for the flexibility I think, the only thing I can say is that it might've looked cleaner if the tokens permanently had first strike, but I rather they have it temporary than not at all! I look forward to trying it in midrange shells
I went 3-1 tonight running this list. I won against Monoblack Devotion, B/W Midrange, Esper Control, and made a mistake against W/r Aggro that costed
me the game. I'm not trying to bring back the Alms Beast vs Desecration Demon debate again, but I'm running both in this build. The main card I'm not sold on, believe it or not, is Warleader's Helix.
High Priest is absolutely awesome against aggro decks. Against it, I usually sideboard something like -3 Desecration Demon, -2 Read the Bones, +1 Warleader's Helix, +2 Devour Flesh, +2 High Priest.
This is a neat list, congrats on the run tonight! I used to use High Priest of Penance a while back and had success with him against blitz type of decks because he could trade for a lot of stuff early on. I eventually moved him to the sideboard because I didn't like him against midrange and control much, has the 2-2 split worked well for you though? Why are you second guessing Warleader's Helix? I've been ok with it so far, its kept me alive in a lot of games. How does Rakdos, Lord of Riots work out for you? I am always scared to run it because I think it would be hard to get in play.
I don't mean to but in or to offend anyone and I'm sorry if I do; but I don't understand why we are beating down on each other. I am fully confidant that we are all intelligent and skilled in our own right.
I want to come to this thread to try to learn from others and get ideas, and hopefully share helpful insights of my own, not to see opinions get ridiculed. I feel, and may be wrong, that its impossible to have a complete opinion on cards if you haven't played them, and if you have played them and don't like them then just share why you had a negative experience; maybe that's just me and I'm sorry if anyone disagrees.
"Brilliant ideas are stupid ideas that worked" -Patrick Chapin, Next Level Deck Building
I think we're all trying to make our own stupid ideas work, so lets build on them rather than bash on them...
Thank you very much for the explanation, and I apologize for veering, I just have magma jet on the mind lately.:)
I will try a 2-2 split of Wild Guess and Read the Bones this week to get a better feel for it.
I see, but if you are trying to get effectiveness out of wild guess early say turns 2-3 would not the double red be harder at times than single black for read the bones? Once again just picking your brain for your opinion. would not magma jet be as useful as wild guess because of the easier cost and the selection it can provide along a similar theme, despite the fact it is not direct drawing cards which is far better for filtering.
Card draw is about indexing your assets. Why do we index our assets? To find and play better cards than the opponent right?
Wild Guess, while not being a very good card in and of itself, has wiggle room. You have the ability to index 2 cards for 2 mana, which is not bad at all, the drawback to saving 1 mana is actually significant enough for the simple reason that it does not produce card advantage. I have no doubts that if Wild Guess let you discard 1 and draw 3, it would absolutely see play, even if it was not exactly a cheaper Compulsive Research. Cheap filtering options are powerful when they net you card advantage, and even when there is no card advantage to be gained, having a way to recycle discarded cards is almost as as good as netting a card. Whip is effective at letting you buy back discarded creatures, which can mean you are more or less just suspending any discarded creature cards. It is not as strong as the Faithless Looting and Unburial Rites engine, but it is still far better than merely trading 2 cards for 2 cards.
Do not let that trick you and think that the purpose of Wild Guess is to just pull reanimation tricks, because it is not. The purpose is to index and locate specific cards.
In the OP article, I touched on the percentages you had for a given situation:
So while you may think it is a bad card, I ask that you actually look at the card, because it is worthy of a degree of respect that you clearly don't give it.
Wonderful insight!:) In general the more cards you see over the course of the game the greater chance you have at winning, and quick cycling selection effects like Wild guess and izzet charm allow you to do that, but is there not something to be said of pure card advantage helping you keep up in a grinding back and forth match? For instance when you have been trading and beating back and forth, and you're out of cards and need to get back into the game, read the bones may be a better option than wild guess. not disagreeing with you at all, merely stating that some might be better at short games and others at long games.
Do you think the Dega deck should focus on one in particular, or try both? Or is it completly Meta dependant?
Thank you, will try that. I am still learning how to play this deck, so my questions may sound a bit silly for those who already play the deck for weeks.
Another question: How about Contaminated Ground as a sideboard card? It temporarily shuts off [card]
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx[/card], so it is nice hoser against devotion decks. It helps against opposing Chained to the Rocks and it can also color-screw these 18 land aggro decks on turn two. A meta call for sure, but it looks really good in isolation and may buy us a turn or three.
I think that is a good question, and it could very well vary upon your meta, but despite that Contaminated ground has the ability to hose a deck (certainly mess one up on turn two), I feel that its a kind of disruptive element that would only stretch the deck in a direction it doesn't need to go. The Dega Midrange deck as I see it wants to use removal to handle the board until it obtains control of the game, so we should focus on that aspect. We have cards like Sin collector and Thoughtseize that do a fine job of disruption already and can act as removal spells in their own right, I don't believe that we need to try to add other elements to them or find replacements for them right now.
Free slots are most likely best spent on helping the mana base or providing more removal.
@Meegs: Congrats on the run tonight! Peak Eruption is a mean card out of the mono red's board I've found, I used to run a boros charm in the side because I used to try to masquerade as the burn deck and I could randomly blow them out by effectively countering the eruption. The spike jester is interesting, I tried Precinct Captain in my board kind of like the B/W midrange decks after PT Dublin, but found they didn't quite do as much as I wanted, but the jester's extra power and haste might make a difference, I would just assume they could still kill it easily postboard.
@Shawnathan: Others may correct me, but I like to slaughter games their aetherling first and save mizzium mortars for their Blood Barons if I know they have them, sometimes you go blind into the Barons postboard, but the barons can be handled more easily than aetherling either way. Revelation hasn't been too back breaking for me as long as I can keep them from hitting their win conditions. Hope that kind of helps.
I had Lifebane Zombie in the board, but it's dead against almost all of the big decks. I also had 2 assembles in the main, but it's way way way too slow against anything aggressive.
Electrickery is something I'm testing out. It is a wrath against decks like boros and rakdos aggro, 2 decks I've been seeing alot of lately on mtgo.
I'm not too happy with alms beast, but I honestly can't think of something better. I really want a 3 drop that can survive anger of the gods and can block profitably. Unfortunately reckoner can't do that, but he might still be worth playing over alms beast, and I'd just have to think about when to use the angers. The other problem with reckoner is that he can be easily killed by aggro decks with lightning strike. Sure you get a 2-1 but I'd really like something with greater staying-power. Once I land alms beast, they generally stop attacking. I really wish loxodon smiter was in our colors.
Do you guys keep in thoughtseize against boros, to hit brave the elements? I'm not sure if it's right to keep it in or not.
Thoughts on this build?
I'm by no means an expert but it looks like a pretty nice build to me. How has the three keyrunes worked out for you? The Alms Beast are kind of lackluster in my opinion, I would almost always rather have Boros Reckoner over it, but I see your point. I had been wishing there was something like a decent 3/4 for three mana too, I played around with Scholar of Athreos for a while because it killed 2/1s all day, survived anger and could go mana sinking sometimes for 2 point life swings, but it was kind of silly compared to reckoner most of the time. I have come to play more removal instead and put the 4 reckoners in my board now so who knows whats best
As for thoughtseize against Boros, I keep it in personally. Either I nab their brave or pull a two power creature that was going to smack me for 2 anyways. I do love the Electrickery, I've been testing it lately and I think its really good against the hyper aggressive decks with all their 2/1s, its like a mini-anger against the right decks!
Yeh thats exactly what i was thinking, would be good against MUD and MBD, especially the black. The other option is to run Merciless Eviction instead but im not sure if thats a better option, plus the bomb sures up our matches against rogue artifact/enchantment based decks (If thats something you are ever worried about). I havent tested it yet and i disagree that it would be overkill, its just a more narrow piece of removal for the matches where it would help us gain/maintain an advantage.
I found Ratchet Bomb to be a big meta issue, in that if I saw a lot of Mono U or G/W token type decks it was a very nice sideboard, but otherwise I prefer Merciless Eviction. The thing I found with Eviction is that it was often relevant in every match up, wrecked devotion and midrange, control had to counter it sometimes, and even in aggro after I anger of the gods and then warleader's helix I would find myself with six mana, near dead and a full board of my opponent's creatures breathing down my neck and Eviction was the only way to win and stabilize. So for now I've come to love Eviction a little more than the bomb.
I have been playtesing RtB and UC. My findings.
RtB- Easier to cast as it only requires 1 certain black mana, love the digging down 4 cards if necessary cause land pockets kill me mid game, countering it is no big deal for me as the set back is only mana spent. The main 2 bonuses are are easier to cast and digs more NOW.
UC- Repeatable, harder to cast as I need 2 black, they could target my land to remove it, life loss is slower for card draw, I have to use a land to use it thus it costs 4 mana to use right now, does not dig as far. The big and only bonus is that it is reapeatable.
I role with RtB and not because I am biased in no way towards it, but I want win conditions and removal NOW, not later. GIVE ME ANGER THE GODS NOW OR GIVE ME GAME LOSS! It's how I look at it.
Any thoughts on Master of Crualties? He ignores massive life gain and stops alot of big single creature swings.
I agree with your analysis with both cards, casting cost is huge early on. But in the aggro match up I often think its better to side either of them out for faster impacting things against them, so I think the aggro argument is hard to fight. Its nice to dig for Anger of the Gods but even then they are too slow I think. I like Master of Cruelties, but I think we have just too many other awesome things to do at 5 mana.
I'm sure everyone will get up in arms about Hundred-Handed One but its a metacall thing for my area, still testing it but I like it a lot so far, chances are its not worth the slot though, in general I believe the four drop slot is better for other things than creatures right now, just trying this out. I think the second whip is most likely bad, but every time I get it I end up winning games I should never have won.
I really like Rakdos Keyrune, it helps me play wincons on t4 sometimes, and if not I can block and then tap for magma jet on t4 which kill about everything! Should I put Sin Collector into the main? I keep thinking I need more MD disruption...
Anyway, any constructive feedback would be awesome thx for the time!
I was wondering what you all thought about the new temple of silence from theros in the black white control lists? Or even if there have been more thoughts on a steelshaper's gift package. Just looking for ideas. Thx!
Demon on the other hand is neat, I think the white makes sense with it gaining vigilance and such. But alas I feel Falkenrath Aristocrat was simply better; this guy will die to removal like everyone else and sacrificing a guy for haste before it gets killed seems like a bad two-for-one to me. Although his base stats seem aggressive enough that a midrange deck might use him for just that alone and the sacrificing ability will be icing on the cake. He also dodges bile blight and anger of gods so I could actually see decks running him to take advantage of that in standard.
I approve of both! They're cool cards and great art as always
This is a neat list, congrats on the run tonight! I used to use High Priest of Penance a while back and had success with him against blitz type of decks because he could trade for a lot of stuff early on. I eventually moved him to the sideboard because I didn't like him against midrange and control much, has the 2-2 split worked well for you though? Why are you second guessing Warleader's Helix? I've been ok with it so far, its kept me alive in a lot of games. How does Rakdos, Lord of Riots work out for you? I am always scared to run it because I think it would be hard to get in play.
I want to come to this thread to try to learn from others and get ideas, and hopefully share helpful insights of my own, not to see opinions get ridiculed. I feel, and may be wrong, that its impossible to have a complete opinion on cards if you haven't played them, and if you have played them and don't like them then just share why you had a negative experience; maybe that's just me and I'm sorry if anyone disagrees.
"Brilliant ideas are stupid ideas that worked" -Patrick Chapin, Next Level Deck Building
I think we're all trying to make our own stupid ideas work, so lets build on them rather than bash on them...
I will try a 2-2 split of Wild Guess and Read the Bones this week to get a better feel for it.
Wonderful insight!:) In general the more cards you see over the course of the game the greater chance you have at winning, and quick cycling selection effects like Wild guess and izzet charm allow you to do that, but is there not something to be said of pure card advantage helping you keep up in a grinding back and forth match? For instance when you have been trading and beating back and forth, and you're out of cards and need to get back into the game, read the bones may be a better option than wild guess. not disagreeing with you at all, merely stating that some might be better at short games and others at long games.
Do you think the Dega deck should focus on one in particular, or try both? Or is it completly Meta dependant?
I think that is a good question, and it could very well vary upon your meta, but despite that Contaminated ground has the ability to hose a deck (certainly mess one up on turn two), I feel that its a kind of disruptive element that would only stretch the deck in a direction it doesn't need to go. The Dega Midrange deck as I see it wants to use removal to handle the board until it obtains control of the game, so we should focus on that aspect. We have cards like Sin collector and Thoughtseize that do a fine job of disruption already and can act as removal spells in their own right, I don't believe that we need to try to add other elements to them or find replacements for them right now.
Free slots are most likely best spent on helping the mana base or providing more removal.
@Shawnathan: Others may correct me, but I like to slaughter games their aetherling first and save mizzium mortars for their Blood Barons if I know they have them, sometimes you go blind into the Barons postboard, but the barons can be handled more easily than aetherling either way. Revelation hasn't been too back breaking for me as long as I can keep them from hitting their win conditions. Hope that kind of helps.
I'm by no means an expert but it looks like a pretty nice build to me. How has the three keyrunes worked out for you? The Alms Beast are kind of lackluster in my opinion, I would almost always rather have Boros Reckoner over it, but I see your point. I had been wishing there was something like a decent 3/4 for three mana too, I played around with Scholar of Athreos for a while because it killed 2/1s all day, survived anger and could go mana sinking sometimes for 2 point life swings, but it was kind of silly compared to reckoner most of the time. I have come to play more removal instead and put the 4 reckoners in my board now so who knows whats best
As for thoughtseize against Boros, I keep it in personally. Either I nab their brave or pull a two power creature that was going to smack me for 2 anyways. I do love the Electrickery, I've been testing it lately and I think its really good against the hyper aggressive decks with all their 2/1s, its like a mini-anger against the right decks!
I found Ratchet Bomb to be a big meta issue, in that if I saw a lot of Mono U or G/W token type decks it was a very nice sideboard, but otherwise I prefer Merciless Eviction. The thing I found with Eviction is that it was often relevant in every match up, wrecked devotion and midrange, control had to counter it sometimes, and even in aggro after I anger of the gods and then warleader's helix I would find myself with six mana, near dead and a full board of my opponent's creatures breathing down my neck and Eviction was the only way to win and stabilize. So for now I've come to love Eviction a little more than the bomb.
I agree with your analysis with both cards, casting cost is huge early on. But in the aggro match up I often think its better to side either of them out for faster impacting things against them, so I think the aggro argument is hard to fight. Its nice to dig for Anger of the Gods but even then they are too slow I think. I like Master of Cruelties, but I think we have just too many other awesome things to do at 5 mana.
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
4 Magma Jet
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Underworld Connections
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
3 Mountain
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sin Collector
3 Hundred-Handed One
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Rakdos's Return
I'm sure everyone will get up in arms about Hundred-Handed One but its a metacall thing for my area, still testing it but I like it a lot so far, chances are its not worth the slot though, in general I believe the four drop slot is better for other things than creatures right now, just trying this out. I think the second whip is most likely bad, but every time I get it I end up winning games I should never have won.
I really like Rakdos Keyrune, it helps me play wincons on t4 sometimes, and if not I can block and then tap for magma jet on t4 which kill about everything! Should I put Sin Collector into the main? I keep thinking I need more MD disruption...
Anyway, any constructive feedback would be awesome thx for the time!