@guineapirate - fair enough, it is an understandable 2for1 yes, and if you need to use it to fuel you're in a bad situation already. In testing it seems fine so far though, as a one of I mean. Was really nice against my opponents leon arbiter which got pathed right after I ghost quartered. Set him back into the dark ages, SUPER RARE OCCURRENCE. Anyway I think the deck could support 2 non basic, non colour slots in the 22. Im still not sold on Ghost Quarter, as after the first fetch, I'm often fetching for basics anyway. Maybe a Tectonic Edge is just better here, maybe I just expect to see more tron, or that I despise that deck hahaha. Mabye Tolaria West to search for Slaughter Pact.
I've been testing more cantrips (3 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Shadow of Doubt) over the permission (2 Remand, 2 Spell Snare), honestly cant even tell that the permission is gone. Rarely do I want to play on my opponents turn with monk out, as the tempo loss from prowess hurts. I think I'd rather just maximize my value and swing. I've seen people playing Fulminator Mages, what about Spreading Seas in the board?
Anyone availible to help me out finish the Matches section please PM me... I have very little experience playing against Amulet Bloom, Burn and RG Tron as they don't exist in my meta. Though I understand the premise I don't know all the tricks. PM me please... do not write a post or a reply! Thanks, you will be credited.
@guineapirate - wow, turn down the fire there pal. It is tech, your thinking is too narrow. I'm wondering if the deck at 22 land can support it, period. Helps, fix mana sure (bloodmoon on the stack etc), it also helps vs RG Tron match up which is terrible. Destroys manlands, yada yada yada. An original thought, no... never said it was, I was merely asking for feedback. It also adds 2 cards to the GY for delve if you target your own land etc. I listed an example, no need to set it a blaze... not everyone is as smart as the almighty, or clearly as witty. Keep slugging away champ.
@Lueseto - I can't see Moorland Haunt helping out too much with only the ten main deck creatures. Also Im skeptical of raising the creature count, as it makes mentor less powerful.
It's not a reliable counter until you have board presence.
Obviously it does nothing until something hits the board, but with Snapcaster, spirit and monk tokens the cost seems small... remand is a tempo play, and well this deck needs something more I feel like. 2 Remand is not often going to find your hand early in the game. That being said and with a bit more thought I considered t4, 1cmc spell, remand that spell play it again.... thats 3 monks and 3 prowess triggers plus a draw... that seems strong. I'll test it again, maybe its weakest as a timewalk in the deck.
@Guineapirate - you're right. Still feels like more of an answer late game than Remand. There's also Deprive.
I also agree that remand feels terrible in the deck, but I do like spell snare as I feel keeping a clean board state is optimal until t3.
Few cards I have and am Testing Gixatian Probe: this is basically just draw 1.... with all the disruption in your deck you already have a ton of ways to get information... I've considered Mutagenic Growth instead as a bolt protection / source of damage etc. Myth Realized: I like the card when I look at it, but every time I had it in play it just seemed like a win more. I don't need to win more... I just need to win. Shadow of Doubt: I replaced Remand with this. On the play, stifling your opponents mana and drawing feels really strong in the deck. Also has come in handy against all the big wigs (RG Tron, U Tron, Amulet Bloom, etc). At worst its a cantrip to fuel Mentor. At best its land destruction + draw. Surge of Righteousness: Straight replaced Celestial Purge, in the board. Not sure if its right or wrong. Great in the burn match up.
Moving forward. Im not a fan of Disfigure as a one of. Might push it up to 2 by removing a Thought Scour. Or potentially adding 2 geist or just upping the spell snare count to 3. I like the look of bauble.
Nothing feels better than casting Lingering Souls and getting free monk tokens.... 5 mana for 6 power is broken.
@Fernling306 - Marshall Sutcliffe suggested that it was in the upper teens close to 20%, this was mentioned on camera... though I am unaware of exactly what was present.
@darktutor - Which decklists are you looking for? There are sample decks in part III (The Shell & Sample Decks). Also I removed the Modern 2015 section for the time being. It'll return this week.
@Fanne - Sorry, the splash is VERY minimal and I see that the core of the deck is UR (the splash white for Timely Reinforcements and Wear/Tear in the board). I just tried to re-direct you somewhere where you might find more players playing in that colour to get feedback about the white in the deck...and while UWR can be slightly more divergent it doesn't have to be, like suggested it is a Twin Deck after all. We'd love to hear your tournament results.
@S_Valtrix - Sorry, I'm just trying to manage the forum and give it direction, bare with me if I make some mistakes, but I completely disagree in changing the name of the thread to include all variants of Twin. Especially at this juncture with grixis being so young. If people came here looking for lets say specific deck information for example, they might have to riff though three to four alternate decks worth of information in order to acquire that knowledge (UR, RUB, RuG, UWR). Fortunately for us there is already a UWR thread that is cared for by a very active member of the twin community Sasky. There is discussion amongst the administration already of separating this thread into two separate threads, UR and RuG, its yet to be decided and may or may not happen. I'd even suggest separating All In from Tempo as well, if we where to go that far, as I see RuG more as a Tempo variant built for a meta. As it stands only UR and RuG fit the requirements made by the moderators to be in T1 (you can find that information here). Grixis is getting leeway due to its large showing at PT Fate Reforged. I ALSO mentioned that Grixis has no home right now and we'll say if a new grixis twin thread arises that would be a good reason for us to stop discussing it here (here's a list that posted 2nd in a PPTQ in Vancounver; GrixisTwin). Remember, things change so often, from set to set, from banning to banning, our goals are to be on the top of our meta. Which is why there are multiple threads regarding one topic; Twin. There is just too much information in each variant for one thread to discuss. If you want to discuss this further I'd be happy to do so privately, but I'll point out that this situation is not unique...BGx and Junk are separated from Jund and Sultai.
On another note while I do agree with you, Grixis is attempting a similar plan as Tarmo-Twin, a tempo plan with efficient midrange creatures diverting attention in hopes to sneak a combo kill through. I don't think that it's limited to the 2 cards mentioned, Tasigur and Terminate. Some lists make the combo look like an after thought, while others are completely focused on comboing. Looking at all the other cards people are attempting (Humble Defector, Inquisition of Kozilek, ThoughtSeize, Olivia Voldaren, Rise//Fall to mention a few), and the shells in which they are being included.... we can say things are very complicated in the Grixis colours right now. Where the green splash in RuG has been for very little (Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Huntmaster of the Fells*) and focused on creatures (minus sideboard card Nature's Claim, Destructive Revelry). Grixis hasn't quite found its place, and it might have more than one (Tempo, Control).
I will take your suggestion to include a 'core' to the primer discussing the shell before the addition a splash colour and the reasons to pick that colour etc. Thanks for the help.
@Monkeyroar - I agree about the Temur hate. I love the deck and its contributions (Goyf, Scooze, Natures Claim), still strong. I tend to think Grixis is just in infancy and people like babies.
@Nerlin - I completely agree with @alpinefroggy. You need to keep them off balance, tempo them out. Try to Pestermite/Deceiver land in the early stages, keep them off big mana. Spreading seas, Molten Rain and Blood Moon can help this to. I always like to Pestermite/Deceiver their Emrakrul on attack step... this holds true for any creature they have on the board. Cryptic Command is strong here too. Just hold them off from attacking into your life total too much and don't commit everything to the board, pyro and oblivion stone. Side in your Negates, ancient grudge etc (they hit almost everything). Don't under estimate stifling their search for Urza land. They have inevitability, you have speed.
@7ornado - Sorry man, both UWR and Grixis are unproven decks. Meaning they do not fit the criteria for the T1 portion of the forums. If your interested you can find that information here. Like I have stated earlier, since Grixis does not currently have a home or at least an active one and after the showing it made at PT Fate Reforged, We'd allow the discussions here.
@Fanne - MTG Salvation UWR TWIN THREAD this might help. Unfortunately, the one colour combination we cant discuss in this thread is white. Again, Grixis and Patriot are unproven decks. Yes I know the white splash is minimal in your version and reminiscent of Jund Souls or early BGx white splashes, however, I cannot update white cards into the Primer since another primer exists. I hope it helps, and good luck with your tournament.
@Deathsycthx - We had been discussing the Fulimnator Twin package in the last thread as well. I believe it was in a conversation involving @iamthib "Live the dream". Regardless, seems sweet if you could protect it. My original Grixis list had 3 in the board for Azban, keeping them off colour just seems stifling for them and I had a feeling that the big BGx Boogie would rear its head in large numbers again. Would be interesting to see if they where at all in Makihito Mihara's 75. Could be interesting long the likes of Spreading Seas, Cryptic Command land bouncing and forceful tapping by Deceiver Exarch&Pestermite.
@zw31-4z1g - Though I do like the idea of the Fulminator Twin package, and have played with it... I noticed that there was just better things to do. Fulminator is weak to every piece of removal. At which point you trade removal for splinter twin and sac to kill hopefully a non-basic land... if not, theres a simple 2 for 1. Ok ok, I know its the same with Pestermite. Thing is your taping out on turn 3 to cast this? I'd have to agree that Spreading Seas is just a better card vs most decks. But lets face it, if you can protect Fulminator destroying a non-basic every turn.... ouch, could even jam seas in there to target basics.
@hittheroadjack - There was a request by the old OP for someone to takeover the care of the thread. Unfortunately, my account was too young to make the transition smooth. So we have to develop fresh. Which isn't a bad thing. Also, vs Lingering Souls; pack an Izzet Staticaster or two. Or even more Electrolyze might be needed for your meta.
@glisteneragent - It already there buhd. Its right beside abrupt decay. Both require the exact same answer, Mizzium Skin.
@Apex_Predator - Tapping out turn 3 just seems terrible in modern and thats exactly what you'd need to do to get value from this. Even though Thoughtseize is a pain, its not worth negating on turn 3... by that time its ripped your hand to shreds. By this time you can just protect your combo pieces by countering, or jamming a piece out. Sure it might get abrupt decay'd as well, but Azban isn't just scary because of either of those cards. Seems decent against burn, though... it would be a meta call in that case.
@Deahtsycthx - Thanks for the suggestions; I have started working on both sections suggested, entitled Pro Tricks and Matches. Regarding the Grixis version. Grixis has been talked in depth over the last few weeks in this thread, and I don’t mind continuing the conversation. Whether the control version, Humble Grixis (as seen by Mihara) or the land denial version (see Dickmanns list under the season 1 section) or other variants etc. Keep in mind that Grixis is unproven as of yet as according to the guidelines of the forums.
@Complex Pants This is something we saw in both Top 8 decks from this weekends Pro Tour (Fate Reforged, Washington), both splashed G as Ancient Grudge is too good to give up.
I've been testing more cantrips (3 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Shadow of Doubt) over the permission (2 Remand, 2 Spell Snare), honestly cant even tell that the permission is gone. Rarely do I want to play on my opponents turn with monk out, as the tempo loss from prowess hurts. I think I'd rather just maximize my value and swing. I've seen people playing Fulminator Mages, what about Spreading Seas in the board?
@Lueseto - I can't see Moorland Haunt helping out too much with only the ten main deck creatures. Also Im skeptical of raising the creature count, as it makes mentor less powerful.
Tap land Ghost Quarter said land, fetch swamp, play Tasigur?
Or Spreading Seas?
Obviously it does nothing until something hits the board, but with Snapcaster, spirit and monk tokens the cost seems small... remand is a tempo play, and well this deck needs something more I feel like. 2 Remand is not often going to find your hand early in the game. That being said and with a bit more thought I considered t4, 1cmc spell, remand that spell play it again.... thats 3 monks and 3 prowess triggers plus a draw... that seems strong. I'll test it again, maybe its weakest as a timewalk in the deck.
@Guineapirate - you're right. Still feels like more of an answer late game than Remand. There's also Deprive.
is Familiar's Ruse just better? Cast, Make monk, sac monk?!
a list of cards I'll be testing:
Hindering Light
Imp's Mischief
Piracy Charm
Merchant Scroll
Castigate
Squelch
Sunlance
Surgical Extraction
Tragic Slip
Trickbind
Triton Tactics
Warped Physique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
SPELLS
2 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
4 Thought Scour
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Spell Snare
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Disfigure
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
LAND
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
1 Flashfreeze
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Countersquall
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 Deathmark
I also agree that remand feels terrible in the deck, but I do like spell snare as I feel keeping a clean board state is optimal until t3.
Few cards I have and am Testing
Gixatian Probe: this is basically just draw 1.... with all the disruption in your deck you already have a ton of ways to get information... I've considered Mutagenic Growth instead as a bolt protection / source of damage etc.
Myth Realized: I like the card when I look at it, but every time I had it in play it just seemed like a win more. I don't need to win more... I just need to win.
Shadow of Doubt: I replaced Remand with this. On the play, stifling your opponents mana and drawing feels really strong in the deck. Also has come in handy against all the big wigs (RG Tron, U Tron, Amulet Bloom, etc). At worst its a cantrip to fuel Mentor. At best its land destruction + draw.
Surge of Righteousness: Straight replaced Celestial Purge, in the board. Not sure if its right or wrong. Great in the burn match up.
Moving forward. Im not a fan of Disfigure as a one of. Might push it up to 2 by removing a Thought Scour. Or potentially adding 2 geist or just upping the spell snare count to 3. I like the look of bauble.
Nothing feels better than casting Lingering Souls and getting free monk tokens.... 5 mana for 6 power is broken.
@S_Valtrix - Sorry, I'm just trying to manage the forum and give it direction, bare with me if I make some mistakes, but I completely disagree in changing the name of the thread to include all variants of Twin. Especially at this juncture with grixis being so young. If people came here looking for lets say specific deck information for example, they might have to riff though three to four alternate decks worth of information in order to acquire that knowledge (UR, RUB, RuG, UWR). Fortunately for us there is already a UWR thread that is cared for by a very active member of the twin community Sasky. There is discussion amongst the administration already of separating this thread into two separate threads, UR and RuG, its yet to be decided and may or may not happen. I'd even suggest separating All In from Tempo as well, if we where to go that far, as I see RuG more as a Tempo variant built for a meta. As it stands only UR and RuG fit the requirements made by the moderators to be in T1 (you can find that information here). Grixis is getting leeway due to its large showing at PT Fate Reforged. I ALSO mentioned that Grixis has no home right now and we'll say if a new grixis twin thread arises that would be a good reason for us to stop discussing it here (here's a list that posted 2nd in a PPTQ in Vancounver; GrixisTwin). Remember, things change so often, from set to set, from banning to banning, our goals are to be on the top of our meta. Which is why there are multiple threads regarding one topic; Twin. There is just too much information in each variant for one thread to discuss. If you want to discuss this further I'd be happy to do so privately, but I'll point out that this situation is not unique...BGx and Junk are separated from Jund and Sultai.
On another note while I do agree with you, Grixis is attempting a similar plan as Tarmo-Twin, a tempo plan with efficient midrange creatures diverting attention in hopes to sneak a combo kill through. I don't think that it's limited to the 2 cards mentioned, Tasigur and Terminate. Some lists make the combo look like an after thought, while others are completely focused on comboing. Looking at all the other cards people are attempting (Humble Defector, Inquisition of Kozilek, ThoughtSeize, Olivia Voldaren, Rise//Fall to mention a few), and the shells in which they are being included.... we can say things are very complicated in the Grixis colours right now. Where the green splash in RuG has been for very little (Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Huntmaster of the Fells*) and focused on creatures (minus sideboard card Nature's Claim, Destructive Revelry). Grixis hasn't quite found its place, and it might have more than one (Tempo, Control).
I will take your suggestion to include a 'core' to the primer discussing the shell before the addition a splash colour and the reasons to pick that colour etc. Thanks for the help.
@Monkeyroar - I agree about the Temur hate. I love the deck and its contributions (Goyf, Scooze, Natures Claim), still strong. I tend to think Grixis is just in infancy and people like babies.
@Nerlin - I completely agree with @alpinefroggy. You need to keep them off balance, tempo them out. Try to Pestermite/Deceiver land in the early stages, keep them off big mana. Spreading seas, Molten Rain and Blood Moon can help this to. I always like to Pestermite/Deceiver their Emrakrul on attack step... this holds true for any creature they have on the board. Cryptic Command is strong here too. Just hold them off from attacking into your life total too much and don't commit everything to the board, pyro and oblivion stone. Side in your Negates, ancient grudge etc (they hit almost everything). Don't under estimate stifling their search for Urza land. They have inevitability, you have speed.
@Fanne - MTG Salvation UWR TWIN THREAD this might help. Unfortunately, the one colour combination we cant discuss in this thread is white. Again, Grixis and Patriot are unproven decks. Yes I know the white splash is minimal in your version and reminiscent of Jund Souls or early BGx white splashes, however, I cannot update white cards into the Primer since another primer exists. I hope it helps, and good luck with your tournament.
@zw31-4z1g - Though I do like the idea of the Fulminator Twin package, and have played with it... I noticed that there was just better things to do. Fulminator is weak to every piece of removal. At which point you trade removal for splinter twin and sac to kill hopefully a non-basic land... if not, theres a simple 2 for 1. Ok ok, I know its the same with Pestermite. Thing is your taping out on turn 3 to cast this? I'd have to agree that Spreading Seas is just a better card vs most decks. But lets face it, if you can protect Fulminator destroying a non-basic every turn.... ouch, could even jam seas in there to target basics.
@hittheroadjack - There was a request by the old OP for someone to takeover the care of the thread. Unfortunately, my account was too young to make the transition smooth. So we have to develop fresh. Which isn't a bad thing. Also, vs Lingering Souls; pack an Izzet Staticaster or two. Or even more Electrolyze might be needed for your meta.
@iamthib - Breaching Hippocamp just also happens to be good against Rakdos Charm. Three power aint nothing to scoff at.
@Apex_Predator - Tapping out turn 3 just seems terrible in modern and thats exactly what you'd need to do to get value from this. Even though Thoughtseize is a pain, its not worth negating on turn 3... by that time its ripped your hand to shreds. By this time you can just protect your combo pieces by countering, or jamming a piece out. Sure it might get abrupt decay'd as well, but Azban isn't just scary because of either of those cards. Seems decent against burn, though... it would be a meta call in that case.
@Deahtsycthx - Thanks for the suggestions; I have started working on both sections suggested, entitled Pro Tricks and Matches. Regarding the Grixis version. Grixis has been talked in depth over the last few weeks in this thread, and I don’t mind continuing the conversation. Whether the control version, Humble Grixis (as seen by Mihara) or the land denial version (see Dickmanns list under the season 1 section) or other variants etc. Keep in mind that Grixis is unproven as of yet as according to the guidelines of the forums.