Thanks for the quick response. Good to know my assumptions were correct, gonna do some more testing on Arena tonight and see if it's a bug or was maybe fixed. My friend doesn't remember the exact fight spell, thinks it was Pounce or Savage Stomp, but hard to say -- apparently it was a month ago or so.
We were playing an EDH game today with Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves and had some questions about the interaction with Panharmonicon. If fight damage was cleared off right away, the extra fights from the Panharmonicon triggers would be crazy good.
The rules for the fight mechanic don't specify when damage from a fight wears off, so my assumption has always been that the damage remains until the Cleanup phase like all other damage does. However, the way it's played on Arena is that the damage wears off immediately after board states resolve. I have to believe this is a bug in Arena code, but considering it's a platform being used for tournaments, it's made me wonder. Can anyone provide more insight?
A friend of mine recently lost an Arena match with this scenario:
Opponent used Fight with a 7/6 Carnage Tyrant against my friend's 5/5 Hydroid Krasis. The opponent's Carnage Tyrant should have had 5 damage on it going into combat phase. He attacked into an empty board with the Carnage Tyrant, and my friend flashed in a Frilled Mystic to block, which should have done enough damage to kill the Carnage Tyrant, but it didn't die. No spells or abilities were otherwise modifying damage being dealt, so it seems like the 5 damage from the Hydroid Krasis just disappeared prior to the combat phase.
I know I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but this is very interesting, I like this one! What is your win condition if Walking Ballista is countered or worse, counter-exiled? Maybe include a Buried Ruin just in case? And maybe something like Gaea's Blessing or a Feldon's Cane type of spell? Theoretically Repopulate would work too, I suppose. Or do you have a backup win plan aside from Walking Ballista? I guess there's always Laboratory Maniac!
Just wanted to say thanks for tracking and posting your Seedborn Muse impact results.
Also, to provide some feedback on our previous conversations, you've made me a full believer in the high-risk, higher-reward mana strategy. Have had some really explosive turns, largely due to the number of 'untap target land' abilities in conjunction with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Gaea's Cradle.
I'd also like to point out that both Beast Whisperer and Bramble Sovereign are a ton of fun in this deck, especially when the Bramble Sovereign copies the Beast Whisperer, which happened for me last weekend. Ironically, the tokens don't draw you a card, but having double the effect still matter for all the creatures we're still casting. The main weakness of Bramble Sovereign is that the deck isn't really geared towards protecting or leveraging tokens in any way at all, but I don't think that matters due to the number of ETB effects or creature abilities we can duplicate by creating tokens, so I still think it's a really nice addition. And even just being able to copy things like Voyaging Satyr or Ley Weaver on an opponent's end step can be backbreaking.
Beast Whisperer took the place of Magus of the Library, which I never got great value from anyway, and Bramble Sovereign took the place of Duskwatch Recruiter for now. This also makes it easier to replace Primordial Sage with something like Vivien Reid in the future if I decide I don't need both the Beast and the Sage.
Yeah, I don't want to change the commander, I love Mazirek too much -- he fuels the entire deck. I can't imagine any similar functionality to Rite of the Raging Storm in black/green, but I figured it was worth asking. A card like Tombstone Stairwell almost fits the bill, but it's lacking the sacrifice clause, which is the most important component for Mazirek.
I've used your list for inspiration in the past -- so thank you for all the work you've put into this primer! I've built a somewhat different Mazirek list than yours, but had a crazy game yesterday, where an opponent played Rite of the Raging Storm which essentially won me the game. I'm curious if anyone knows of a similar card in Black/Green. A card that creates something for an opponent which then requires them to sac it at end of turn. I kinda doubt it, or it would already be in everyone's Mazirek lists, but figured it was worth asking.
Thanks for the quick response! A couple more clarifications about the Scythe if I may...
Once an equipped creature -- the Ballista in the example above -- has done damage to another creature, let's say Grizzly Bears, but before the bears actually die (to whatever), can someone destroy the Scythe to prevent me from taking control of the bears? Or will the delayed effect still trigger when the bears die?
Similarly, what if someone destroys the Walking Ballista in response (instead of the Scythe)? Would the delayed trigger still happen if the bears die later in the turn?
Another example, if I have the Scythe-equipped Walking Ballista target and kill itself, say, in response to an opponent's targeted removal, would it return to play under my control, with the Scythe attached?
And if yes to #3, would the Ballista who's now entering with X=0, stay alive because of the +2 of the sword? Or does it enter and die (because toughness is zero) before the Scythe could be equipped?
I’m building a stax deck, with a couple Grave Pact effects, and I have a Scythe of the Wretched attached to my Walking Ballista. My question is if I force opponents to sacrifice a creature (by triggering Grave Pact, for example), will I have a chance to ping their sacrifice target with my Walking Ballista in response to them declaring which creature they are sacrificing? Or would it already be gone by the time I have priority again?
I’m going to start referring to you as the Professor. You’re giving great answers, thanks so much.
I’ve been a mono green player for a long time so I actually have almost all the cards from your list already, just missing a couple of the newer ones. Also, my group is great about supporting proxies while tweaking or otherwise testing decks, so really, everything is an option. If I like how something plays, I’ll buy it later.
After reading and absorbing all this, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ve been seriously handcuffing Yeva by running so much sorcery speed junk. I just counted my current list... 7 enchantments, 5 artifacts, 15 sorceries, 4 instants, 38 lands, 1 planeswalker, 30 creatures. A significant majority is sorcery speed!! That’s kind of embarrassing. It’s probably not surprising that a majority of the wins were simply from Seedborn Muse powering out enough stuff to setup alpha strikes with Asceticism in play to keep them alive. Then dropping something like Beastmaster Ascension or Craterhoof to win. My deck has been very one dimensional.
I think I’m going to test out the high risk/reward mana package that you recommend. In fact, aside from a few minor changes for personal preference I’m going to try a close duplicate of your entire list and see how I like it. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and experiences!
Appreciate the well thought out response. You rock! I think every point you made was good sense, with regards to Paradox.
Currently, my Yeva deck is probably closer to a "good stuff" build, and when I made it we had a fairly casual group, which tended to prefer randomness and variance in our games. I would rarely ever run non-land tutors for that reason, but our power level has increased recently, so I need to keep up. (Thankfully I already have a Survival of the Fittest!) Your recommendations are on point, I think I just have to change my thinking a bit.
I saw the option of Patron of the Orochi, but even though it probably helps Yeva more than anyone else, I've always hated effects that help my opponents too. Not to mention we have multiple mono greens in our group. I hadn't ever considered the Quest for Renewal, that's a decent alternative I might test out.
How often do you win without Seedborn Muse? I find that my ability to be reactive when I don't have Seedborn available is so dramatically reduced, that I really hate when it's been exiled. Although in fairness, my mana is more of the Cultivate/Skyshroud Claim variety, and less of the Priest of Titania/Voyaging Satyr type. I've never used Riftsweeper, but I may have to give that one a try. Also, it sounds to me, if you had to choose between Seedborn and Temur Sabertooth, you'd rather have Temur, yes? Maybe I'm just putting too much emphasis on Seedborn. (But he's just so damn good!)
One other question, if you don't mind, regarding Polukranos, World Eater. I never thought I was bad at math until I tried to understand this card. Let's say you pay 11 to go monstrous, so X=5. You can now kill up to five 1/1s, who would then deal 5 back to Polukranos, who's a 10/10 now, right? On the other hand, if you chose to kill a Thragtusk and a Myojin of Night's Reach, just to use a random example, they're going to return enough damage to kill Polukranos. Am I understanding this right? The second example is a bit of a reach, I realize, but I'm curious what you're usually targeting with him. Are you usually just trying to remove a single target that's causing pain, or are you generally trying to maximize card advantage (3, 4, 5, for 1, etc)? I've never used him before, so I feel like I'm missing something. He seems rather limited, and very mana intensive.
I have a Yeva build that I haven't updated in probably two+ years now, so thought I'd go through and tweak it for new cards. I just found and finished reading your guide, really nicely done! You've given me some really strong ideas for cuts and replacements, thank you for that.
My group knows well the power of Seedborn Muse in my build, so I've been looking for a good backup to include. I think this may fit? Paradox Engine is strictly not as good as Muse in Yeva, but it can enable a lot of the same plays, and on the right board, it enables even more EOT stuff. It doesn't degenerate into infinite plays like it does in a lot of other decks, but it's still a potential star here.
Just curious if you'd evaluated it in your build, and what your thoughts were on it.
By the way, I love that you're still tinkering with this deck. The thread has been a fun read to see how it's changed over the years. I like your style.
I haven't played my version of your deck, I've mostly just finished holding it, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems you have more than enough (wait, is that possible) card draw group hug. I would think Kami of the Crescent Moon is your weakest in that category. How often does he survive more than a round or two?
Also, I like Nahiri's Wrath for board control, but does it help you as much since it doesn't target players?
Vanish into Memory is a card I've never played but it's hard for me to see it be super strong when you already have a lot of other flexible options in the deck to do the same thing. Or is this one more about getting it into EotS?
I'm a huge fan of Cathars' Crusade though, so I'd love to see it stay in your list. It draws a ton of hate in my regular group because of how well I've utilized it.
Yeah that's a good point, it would require the Aurelia tokens to survive each combat phase, and against each opponent.
There's just something really satisfying about winning with your opponents cards though!
Edit: honestly, this could be a 3-card combo. If you have Stolen Identity, Venser for unblockable, and any creature to use for ciphering, you win the game if Aurelia (or a creature that gives multiple combat phases in that manner) hits the board. Removal and other forms of disruption notwithstanding, of course. Catch makes it easier -- you won't have to wait a turn to go off -- but it's not required.
We were playing an EDH game today with Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves and had some questions about the interaction with Panharmonicon. If fight damage was cleared off right away, the extra fights from the Panharmonicon triggers would be crazy good.
Thanks for the confirmation!
A friend of mine recently lost an Arena match with this scenario:
Opponent used Fight with a 7/6 Carnage Tyrant against my friend's 5/5 Hydroid Krasis. The opponent's Carnage Tyrant should have had 5 damage on it going into combat phase. He attacked into an empty board with the Carnage Tyrant, and my friend flashed in a Frilled Mystic to block, which should have done enough damage to kill the Carnage Tyrant, but it didn't die. No spells or abilities were otherwise modifying damage being dealt, so it seems like the 5 damage from the Hydroid Krasis just disappeared prior to the combat phase.
Is that how it is supposed to happen?
Also, to provide some feedback on our previous conversations, you've made me a full believer in the high-risk, higher-reward mana strategy. Have had some really explosive turns, largely due to the number of 'untap target land' abilities in conjunction with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Gaea's Cradle.
I'd also like to point out that both Beast Whisperer and Bramble Sovereign are a ton of fun in this deck, especially when the Bramble Sovereign copies the Beast Whisperer, which happened for me last weekend. Ironically, the tokens don't draw you a card, but having double the effect still matter for all the creatures we're still casting. The main weakness of Bramble Sovereign is that the deck isn't really geared towards protecting or leveraging tokens in any way at all, but I don't think that matters due to the number of ETB effects or creature abilities we can duplicate by creating tokens, so I still think it's a really nice addition. And even just being able to copy things like Voyaging Satyr or Ley Weaver on an opponent's end step can be backbreaking.
Beast Whisperer took the place of Magus of the Library, which I never got great value from anyway, and Bramble Sovereign took the place of Duskwatch Recruiter for now. This also makes it easier to replace Primordial Sage with something like Vivien Reid in the future if I decide I don't need both the Beast and the Sage.
Yeah, I don't want to change the commander, I love Mazirek too much -- he fuels the entire deck. I can't imagine any similar functionality to Rite of the Raging Storm in black/green, but I figured it was worth asking. A card like Tombstone Stairwell almost fits the bill, but it's lacking the sacrifice clause, which is the most important component for Mazirek.
Thanks again for the help!
Thanks in advance!
I’ve been a mono green player for a long time so I actually have almost all the cards from your list already, just missing a couple of the newer ones. Also, my group is great about supporting proxies while tweaking or otherwise testing decks, so really, everything is an option. If I like how something plays, I’ll buy it later.
After reading and absorbing all this, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ve been seriously handcuffing Yeva by running so much sorcery speed junk. I just counted my current list... 7 enchantments, 5 artifacts, 15 sorceries, 4 instants, 38 lands, 1 planeswalker, 30 creatures. A significant majority is sorcery speed!! That’s kind of embarrassing. It’s probably not surprising that a majority of the wins were simply from Seedborn Muse powering out enough stuff to setup alpha strikes with Asceticism in play to keep them alive. Then dropping something like Beastmaster Ascension or Craterhoof to win. My deck has been very one dimensional.
I think I’m going to test out the high risk/reward mana package that you recommend. In fact, aside from a few minor changes for personal preference I’m going to try a close duplicate of your entire list and see how I like it. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and experiences!
Currently, my Yeva deck is probably closer to a "good stuff" build, and when I made it we had a fairly casual group, which tended to prefer randomness and variance in our games. I would rarely ever run non-land tutors for that reason, but our power level has increased recently, so I need to keep up. (Thankfully I already have a Survival of the Fittest!) Your recommendations are on point, I think I just have to change my thinking a bit.
I saw the option of Patron of the Orochi, but even though it probably helps Yeva more than anyone else, I've always hated effects that help my opponents too. Not to mention we have multiple mono greens in our group. I hadn't ever considered the Quest for Renewal, that's a decent alternative I might test out.
How often do you win without Seedborn Muse? I find that my ability to be reactive when I don't have Seedborn available is so dramatically reduced, that I really hate when it's been exiled. Although in fairness, my mana is more of the Cultivate/Skyshroud Claim variety, and less of the Priest of Titania/Voyaging Satyr type. I've never used Riftsweeper, but I may have to give that one a try. Also, it sounds to me, if you had to choose between Seedborn and Temur Sabertooth, you'd rather have Temur, yes? Maybe I'm just putting too much emphasis on Seedborn. (But he's just so damn good!)
One other question, if you don't mind, regarding Polukranos, World Eater. I never thought I was bad at math until I tried to understand this card. Let's say you pay 11 to go monstrous, so X=5. You can now kill up to five 1/1s, who would then deal 5 back to Polukranos, who's a 10/10 now, right? On the other hand, if you chose to kill a Thragtusk and a Myojin of Night's Reach, just to use a random example, they're going to return enough damage to kill Polukranos. Am I understanding this right? The second example is a bit of a reach, I realize, but I'm curious what you're usually targeting with him. Are you usually just trying to remove a single target that's causing pain, or are you generally trying to maximize card advantage (3, 4, 5, for 1, etc)? I've never used him before, so I feel like I'm missing something. He seems rather limited, and very mana intensive.
I have a Yeva build that I haven't updated in probably two+ years now, so thought I'd go through and tweak it for new cards. I just found and finished reading your guide, really nicely done! You've given me some really strong ideas for cuts and replacements, thank you for that.
I haven't read all the comments yet, but a quick thread search returned no results on Paradox Engine. It has some drawbacks I know -- it's a hated artifact, it does little for resilience, and it's not a creature so you're only playing it on your turn. But the deck potentially runs enough non-land mana acceleration to really trigger some explosive turns with it. Priest of Titania, Voyaging Satyr, Hope Tender, Karametra's Acolyte, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Krosan Restorer, Magus of the Candelabra, Ley Druid, Juniper Order Druid, Joraga Treespeaker, Somberwald Sage, and of course it would also hit Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. It combos best with the "untap target land" guys, especially when you have Nykthos, Itlimoc, and/or Gaea's Cradle out, and it really makes Magus a powerhouse.
My group knows well the power of Seedborn Muse in my build, so I've been looking for a good backup to include. I think this may fit? Paradox Engine is strictly not as good as Muse in Yeva, but it can enable a lot of the same plays, and on the right board, it enables even more EOT stuff. It doesn't degenerate into infinite plays like it does in a lot of other decks, but it's still a potential star here.
Just curious if you'd evaluated it in your build, and what your thoughts were on it.
Also, I like Nahiri's Wrath for board control, but does it help you as much since it doesn't target players?
Vanish into Memory is a card I've never played but it's hard for me to see it be super strong when you already have a lot of other flexible options in the deck to do the same thing. Or is this one more about getting it into EotS?
I'm a huge fan of Cathars' Crusade though, so I'd love to see it stay in your list. It draws a ton of hate in my regular group because of how well I've utilized it.
There's just something really satisfying about winning with your opponents cards though!
Edit: honestly, this could be a 3-card combo. If you have Stolen Identity, Venser for unblockable, and any creature to use for ciphering, you win the game if Aurelia (or a creature that gives multiple combat phases in that manner) hits the board. Removal and other forms of disruption notwithstanding, of course. Catch makes it easier -- you won't have to wait a turn to go off -- but it's not required.