MTG Salvation

Quote from Cranky »

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

Quote from Cranky »

I'll concede that colorless decks on a budget may get some use out of it, that's a good point. Would still absolutely run every sword first given the option.

So you put a Sword of Feast and Famine on your commander, and they Swords your commander. Way to go.

Making any mono-colored commander extremely hard to get rid of or block makes for an excellent card in decks that want to equip their commander.

So you attempt to equip your commander with plate and they swords it. Way to go.

The floor on this card is the same as the floor on swords: You get nothing.

The ceiling, and the average case even, on a sword is much MUCH MUCH higher.

How did they Swords my equipped mono-black commander?

Unless you're saying Swords in response to equip, in which case every equipment ever is terrible because you can always respond to the equip, making it pointless.

Once the card is equipped, I'd wager players would be much happier with "Protection from 4+ colors" than "Do this kind of decent thing only if you manage to land damage and protection from 2 specific colors".

On a different note, this exact conversation is why people need to have what type of Magic they play somewhere on their profile. If you play CEDH, and therefore 99.999999999999% of all cards printed will never see any play whatsoever because it doesn't combo kill the board on Turn 5 with Force of Will to back it up, then cards like this are terrible. So are the swords. And every equipment ever made except for maybe Skullclamp.

Quote from Mishotem »

Quote from Teysa_Karlov »

Quote from Mishotem »

Quote from migrena »

Quote from Dontrike »

But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.

Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.

i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.

Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.

If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.

You're boldly assuming each opponent will have removal turn 1, but the mana to cast that removal on turn 1 as well. Path or Swords might do it, but most removal is CMC 2 or higher.

Turn 1 Grand Arbiter turns the game on its head. Turn 1 Liliana, Heretical Healer + Flip is also very possible and very powerful.

Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.

Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.

JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.

And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.

There are 11369 creatures in the game. All of them die to removal. That doesn't mean the creature is bad.

This is especially true if you force someone to commit 2 or 3 cards just to get rid of 1.

And while JL will not be in the opening hand every time, when it does is when the real problems arise. For many commanders, this creates a larger gap than Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Mana Vault, which are highly controversial cards in the format as well. I am willing to bet there are going to be a lot more times where JL shows up Turn 1 or 2 and wrecks a game than times where it is drawn turn 9 and does literally nothing. I've heard that argument for Sol Ring too many times t count.

Quote from MonoBlackOut »

He killed his equal.

He's stronger than all planes-walkers
I'm not saying he should be unbeatable. Just not so vaguely dismissed into "but that egg though..." and woops hereeeeee's Ugin.

I digress, it is what it is. Still one of the strongest cards in the set.

I mean, he also lost in a 1v1 fight with Ajani of all people.

Quote from Tibalt"s Advocate »

Quote from Xeruh »

Quote from Tibalt"s Advocate »

Quote from Randuir »

Quote from Raptorchan »

Ghosts she freed (Ethereal Absolution) secretly were Ravnica's defense forces, and after facing some economic problems after freeing all debt slaves, Kaya just decided to rise up the taxes - and it caused massive upheavals and more casualties, weakening the plane overall right before the invasion (Smothering Tithe). Enough?

Because its wrong to free slaves and let the free pay their share of the upkeep instead? Timing might have been really, really bad, but the act itself doesn't sound that way.

Actually, the dead who are, as you refer to "enslaved", are people who owe debts to the guild and are under contractual obligation to work off their debt even in undeath. This debt is because the undead person in question took out loans and credit and couldn't pay it off in life.

Yes, because the Orzhov give out loans that people can't possibly pay off to turn them into slaves even after death. They were not the good guys, at all. Making slaves of people because they needed money (which is being controlled by the Orzhov to begin with) isn't something people should be defending. Bolas uses good intentions against Kaya and Tesya, but that's one of Bolas' things.

Never said they are the good guys, but they actually do look after the community they fostered and help families who partake in the guild's actions. Also what you said is an exaggeration of the guild. Its kind of like blaming real world banks because you took out a loan and don't have a means to pay it back. That just lole those banks, if you know how to work with the guild in a beneficial manner, you can actually excel in life and unlife. The people who can't pay off loans tend to be the same people who were in a bad spot to begin with.

That unlike the Pre-Decamillennial Celebration Selsenya, you actually knew what you were in for if you worked with the guild. Its common knowledge for the denizens of Ravnica that the Orzhov guild is corrupt.

The Orzhov loaned out to the most desperate with contract terms that were so tied up in legal mess that no one but the Advokist could hope to understand them. They were loan sharks, pure and simple.

No.

1) She has flaws. She is short-sighting, vain, and self-absorbed.

2) A key for a Mary Sue is that they cannot lose in any situation. She loses. She loses more than she wins, actually.

3) A key for a Mary Sue is that either everyone loves them, or if someone doesn't they are shown to be completely wrong to do so. Nissa hates her. Chandra dislikes her. Most of Innistrad hates her. Sorin dislikes her. Only Jace and Gideon are kind of on her side.

Stop using the term for situations that it doesn't apply.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from idSurge »

"Have you ever been fatesealed to death? Its a horrible experience."

Those where the words over and over and over, from pro's and commentators and writers. Its seriously not worth the debate. The ban list is not based on just power, or just tournament run time, but on past fears, that some people refuse to critically think about.

"I can't tap out on turn 3 because of Splinter Twin."

I thought we were talking about unfounded fears, not your favorite decks actual gameplan.

Quote from Taleran »

Teferi
Estrid
Aminatou
Will & sometimes Rowan
Daretti

I was not saying that all the available walkers are strong just that out of available Walkers if you gave me choice to make a deck it would probably be one of these or some dumb thing with NuKarn

My most powerful deck is my Liliana, Heretical Healer deck. I would switch her out for Liliana of the Veil in a heartbeat.

Quote from user-100025877 »

I just don't get the logic of comparing SFM, a Legacy staple 2 drop, with Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom, Sword (all fringe playables at best in Legacy) or even worse comparing it with 4 mana cards.

Because Legacy has Umezawa's Jitte and Force of Will, two cards that make SFM much more playable?

Quote from user-12976315 »

Not a chance, storm is not even close to the top of the power stack, and people should be able to play how they like, even if its 'antisocial'.

Second Sunrise was banned exactly for the Iron-Works reason and never unbanned since then. Sensei Divine Top was another card banned because it take too much time in tournaments. It even exist the "Storm Scale" to remember us that WotC hate herself so much Storm (it was an enormous mistake to bring it in existence in the first place) that promised herself to never bring again new supporting storm cards in Standard again.

No, players shouldn't be able to play how they like. If WotC make mistakes and create cards that leads to horrible or broken gameplay should be banned in tournaments, because allowing antisocial cards not only kill the fun but even damage the magic community as a whole.

So the only Magic that should be allowed is the kind you like?

I'd say that attitude damages the magic community as a whole.

*sigh* Still no legendary Phoenix :/

Quote from Ernart »

Hoping the next commander legends would had expand the partner into a new mechanic like

Comrade (You can have this card as an additional commander if your commander has no assigned partner)

I was hoping for another white angel planeswalker with partner maybe next time.

I hope shadow and infect would be revisted as commanders

Dude... this would be broken as hell.

If comrade existed, everyone would be able to slap a comrade on all of their preexisting (non-partner) decks for zero cost to get an extra card in the command zone. If you've forgotten, Lutri was banned the day it was revealed because every Izzet deck could add it as an extra card you start with... and you want to print a whole bunch of those cards.

Even if the only comrade was Prismatic Piper (so you could expand the color identity of your decks by one color), that would still be too powerful.

Apologies if I'm not reading sarcasm but dang.

Quote from Werewolf_Rawr »

Enough with the cascade already...

Its one of the main set mechanics.

I mean its also a permanent and its also an artifact, and there is plenty of ways to either tutor for that or just recur that from the graveyard. Which means its hands down better than most rituals which are not artifacts.

There is also the factor of it just costing 0, so it means your other mana is potentially freed up and it takes less cards to pull off a big explosive play which also is a factor towards card advantage.

Essentially what the purpose of a Jeweled Lotus serves is as a turbo-yet-narrow version of Lotus Petal but only for casting your commander. For example you can always go... Turn 1: Mountain, Jeweled Lotus, Purphoros, God of the Forge. Subsequent turns can be used to play other cards to crank up the pace of the game.

As any two-color, mono-color, or colorless commander that is 4 cmc or less now be played turn 1. And a lower CMC than 4 really only benefits 3 but also applies to 2 and 1 as you don't have to factor a land into the equation unless they are two-color. While for cards that cost 5 CMC or higher means they more or less have 1 or more turns being required to play it.

The common, tired, and intellectually dishonest argument to throw at this card is: "What if you draw it at the wrong time?". The reason its common is it parroted all the time as a way to try and show how a card is less likely to see use in a conversation around it. But the reason such an argumentative point is intellectually dishonest is that same argument can apply to many instances when the top card of your deck or your opening hand is not ideal in your current situation. After all how many times has the phrase "I was only [x] turns away from drawing [card]" when somebody loses? The retort one might try to bring up is that isn't the same, as certain cards always have value, but what if a boardsweeper is a dead draw because the current state of the game isn't really worth it and you would much rather have something else? And that is the thing that always gets missed about these situations is there is a lot of moving parts if your gonna say "what if you draw it at the wrong?" As the implication is there is an existing state that could be analyzed, but since there isn't this is like the equivalent of a Schrodinger's Magical Christmas Land in which it has technically everything but also nothing for you and your opponents exists, but since nobody has a concrete state of the game with actual information, it will always result in a pointless rabbit hole of argumenatation and wasted time. A sol ring in one scenario could be a dead draw, in another it can be the vital card needed to get a big play off the ground.

Quote from TheOnlyOne652089 »

Oh its Mana Drain , again ... and again ... and again ...

These reprints of reprints of reprints are getting old really quick.

Yes its still expensive, but cmon, its not like we have no other cards to reprint, instead we get the same bunch of cards all over again on endless repeat ...

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For the "white" hate cards, i would have liked them all as White Multicolor cards.

Opposition Agent as a Orzhov/Dimir (could even be Esper color for that) would have been more in line of the effect, but they made it mono black to make it viable for more decks, cause its crazy power level (so the color identity principle of EDH is really hurting the design and balance aspects in that regard, as WotC is actively producing cards to be as viable for as many color combinations as possible).

Hullbreacher probably should have been at least white in its casting cost, and/or red.
Making it a WUR manacost would even be more inline with its effect, but once again, that would have restricted in what kind of decks this card could go, and once again WotC decides to make it mono blue to ensure people play it in as many decks as possible.

Adding FLASH to all these hate creatures is just icing on the powerlevel cake. Its absolutely not necessary, but it grants them free benefits.

How on EARTH is Mana Drain 'again and again and again'? It has been printed 3 times in 26 years. The original, a mythic in ONE masters set, ne of the worst and lower selling ones...and a Judge Promo. . It's one of those cards, as i keep explaining to people, that there are more copies of any given Ikoria mythic floating around out there, and Ikoria was released DURING lockdown over here in the US. I would guess that TOTAL, it has a similar number of copies to Rings of Brighthearth,it's like the best choice they are ALLOWED to reprint.

Quote from seilaoque »

Imoti has a pretty powerful effect.... but... 1 thoughness for 5 mana makes it nigh unplayable... dies to absolutely everything every time.

Your meta must be different from mine. 1 toughness may as well be 12 toughness. If you can't survive blasphemous act, austere command, ruinous ultimatum,cyclonic rift, damnation, all is dust,ultimatum, verdict, hallowed burial, any number of destroy a critter and sac a critter - you aren't safe. I think the last time 1 toughness was a death sentence was when a sword of fire and ice was wreaking havoc on 2 URX decks. And remember you aren't just getting a 3/1 - you also pick up a 0-4 cc off the cascade.

Might be because it‘s in a Set called Commander Legends. I could be wrong tho...

Quote from Max Rebo »

I guess I still don't get the Urza thing.
Turn 1 : land, Jeweled lotus, crack, Urza .... ok nothing else
Table kills urza
Turn 2 : Now your commander costs six

If we are always assuming god hands, I'll assume someone on the table has turn 1 removal as well

You play Urza, with a bazillion of artifacts.

Turn 1 Urza into artifacts means you have a insane advantage over the entire table and you threaten to win in short order after.


In cEDH especially you play a lot less creature removal, as the vast majority of threats are spells and not creatures slowly grinding around.

And theres a ton of free counters too for having your commander out.

----

The entire power of this card is the SPEED it provides, and if that doesnt matter in the game you are playing, you could argue that banning all the Moxes, Lotus and power cards isnt actually meaningful anyway, as they provide just mana advantages compared to other spells.


Combo Commanders in general threaten to win the moment they resolve and the earlier and more surprisingly you can do that, the more of a threat they are.

If the table is full of removal, you still need the extra 3 mana to play the commander and have backup answers available.

With all the 1 mana counterspells and free counters, you can very well deal with the 2+ removal spells the table has against your commander, and if they fail to remove it, you untap and reap the rewards.

Especially as you are not the only enemy at the table, as all the other players will try to ramp into their commanders asap too, and the one that stick theirs is in a piloting position to win the game.