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Life's Legacy: Delving into Delver
  • posted a message on From The Vaults Discontinued
    Quote from Havrekjex »
    Quote from Teysa_Karlov »
    Quote from Havrekjex »
    I hated the foils too, and I won´t miss these sets at all. They were fake collector´s items, a horrible reprint outlet, and they always seemed to promise better cards than they could deliver.

    But the worst part about the sets was the diminishing card selection quality. I don´t understand why WotC keeps making a good product line, then gradually stops making a decent effort to make said products good, and then discontinue them when they don´t sell as well as they used to. Look at the first FTV sets, like Relics and Realms, and compare them to Lore and Annihilation. Look at the first five or six duel decks sets, which had lots of cool reprints and actually had well constructed decks and somewhat deep gameplay, and compare them to some of the latter ones where the matchup is lopsided or the decks just run past each other. Even the event decks used to be half decent, like the Kuldotha Red one (which had Goblin Guide and also could actually win some FNM matches) or the one with SFM, but then they turned completely embarrassing after a while. Why do they start skimpimg on product development when a product line has been out for a while, instead of delivering consistent quality?

    Edit: Here´s some bonus half baseless, half off-topic speculation about the Signature Spellbook product: Did you notice in the new Duel Decks announcement, where they wouldn´t reveal the foil in the green deck? I think it looks like they are about to present some kind of new foil technique and/or art concept. Signature Spellbook is a special product that only has one single foil. I bet they are planning on doing something super special with that one card, like a new 3D or animated effect.


    I think that's selection bias showing.

    Relics had chaff like Masticore, Jester's Cap, Ivory Tower, and Zuran Orb. Dragons had Draco, Dragon Whelp, Ebon Dragon, Shivan Dragon, Rith the Awakener, Thunder Dragon, and Two-Headed Dragon.

    The quality was always a little hit or miss.
    I disagree. All sets had bad cards, but the quality and rate of the good cards declined.


    Not really.

    Transform has several decent value cards (Jace, Huntmaster, Bloodline Keeper, Delver) that have maintained value, with some lesser cards behind it.
    Lore had Dark Depths + Token, Jitte, and Tolaria West, though this one is weaker.
    Angels had Entreat, Avacyn, Iona, and Akroma for value
    Annihilation... was crap, no question.

    But the value level and reprint types are still good. Again, selection bias.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on From The Vaults Discontinued
    Quote from Colt47 »
    I think we all know which Jace it would be if they include one since they aren't going to be doing flip walkers in these sets. I'm just sort of hoping the spells make up for the difference.


    Well, Jace Beleren is $8 is just about every printing (book one aside). For a $19.99 product, that's a good start.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on From The Vaults Discontinued
    Quote from Havrekjex »
    I hated the foils too, and I won´t miss these sets at all. They were fake collector´s items, a horrible reprint outlet, and they always seemed to promise better cards than they could deliver.

    But the worst part about the sets was the diminishing card selection quality. I don´t understand why WotC keeps making a good product line, then gradually stops making a decent effort to make said products good, and then discontinue them when they don´t sell as well as they used to. Look at the first FTV sets, like Relics and Realms, and compare them to Lore and Annihilation. Look at the first five or six duel decks sets, which had lots of cool reprints and actually had well constructed decks and somewhat deep gameplay, and compare them to some of the latter ones where the matchup is lopsided or the decks just run past each other. Even the event decks used to be half decent, like the Kuldotha Red one (which had Goblin Guide and also could actually win some FNM matches) or the one with SFM, but then they turned completely embarrassing after a while. Why do they start skimpimg on product development when a product line has been out for a while, instead of delivering consistent quality?

    Edit: Here´s some bonus half baseless, half off-topic speculation about the Signature Spellbook product: Did you notice in the new Duel Decks announcement, where they wouldn´t reveal the foil in the green deck? I think it looks like they are about to present some kind of new foil technique and/or art concept. Signature Spellbook is a special product that only has one single foil. I bet they are planning on doing something super special with that one card, like a new 3D or animated effect.


    I think that's selection bias showing.

    Relics had chaff like Masticore, Jester's Cap, Ivory Tower, and Zuran Orb. Dragons had Draco, Dragon Whelp, Ebon Dragon, Shivan Dragon, Rith the Awakener, Thunder Dragon, and Two-Headed Dragon.

    The quality was always a little hit or miss.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from Lord Seth »
    Quote from Teysa_Karlov »
    Quote from idSurge »
    It would be apocolyptic, if Bolt was introduced out of nowhere to the format. They wouldnt even do it, because then all the x/3's suddenly failing The Bolt Test, would be 'useless'.

    In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.



    The same could be said about Thoughtseize as well. People making calls about BBE being too powerful because Ancestral Visions would be complaining about T-Seize being too strong because of 8Rack.
    I don't know about that. Would 8Rack even be a deck at all without Thoughtseize?


    IoK is a solid substitute, and the deck could probably be okay with Duress, but it would be fears about T-Seize in the deck mean more than what would actually happen.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from idSurge »
    It would be apocolyptic, if Bolt was introduced out of nowhere to the format. They wouldnt even do it, because then all the x/3's suddenly failing The Bolt Test, would be 'useless'.

    In other news, after playing with and against Jace a bunch today (and some BBE) I'm in this weird place where I dont think I even like Jace. I get that its powerful, and powers up Control, and thats all well and good, but...I dont know that he's for me.



    The same could be said about Thoughtseize as well. People making calls about BBE being too powerful because Ancestral Visions would be complaining about T-Seize being too strong because of 8Rack.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Mini Announcment day
    Quote from Ryperior74 »
    Quote from Teysa_Karlov »
    The issue with doing PW cards for Urza, Serra, Leshrac, and the other absurdly powerful beings of Magic lore is that unless the card is a ten-mana "you win the game" card, it wouldn't be doing justice to the pure absurd power level of the oldwalkers. Oldwalkers were gods. Not Theros "kinda sorta" gods. They were completely unbeatable unless you were one or something similar (Yawgmoth).


    uh karn and teferi and Nicol bolas would like a word with you



    Neither Karn nor Nicol Bolas are oldwalkers anymore. They don't have the same power. Hence why Nicol Bolas is spending all his time trying to get that power back.

    Teferi and Freyalise were oldwalkers, but Urza was an entire league above either of them.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Mini Announcment day
    Quote from Teysa_Karlov »
    The issue with doing PW cards for Urza, Serra, Leshrac, and the other absurdly powerful beings of Magic lore is that unless the card is a ten-mana "you win the game" card, it wouldn't be doing justice to the pure absurd power level of the oldwalkers. Oldwalkers were gods. Not Theros "kinda sorta" gods. They were completely unbeatable unless you were one or something similar (Yawgmoth).

    Quote from Colt47 »
    Quote from NRWGN »
    Imagine that Jace Signature Spellbook containing Jace, the Mind Sculptor and turning him from the Wallet Sculpter to the Peoples Sculpture. Crash the market. Eliminate the bourgeoisie.


    I think the more likely scenario is that since he's basically 8x the MSRP of the spellbook every single one gets bought out by scalpers or horded and no one sees them actually make it to the shelves. I'm probably pre-ordering one the second it shows up since at worse I'm getting a jace themed counterspell reprint from the jace vs chandra duel deck in foil, Fact or Fiction Jace duel deck reprint in foil, and possibly a Jace Beleren. I highly doubt they are going to put the most powerful version of jace in the FTV unless they literally hold the spoilers to a week before release.


    ^THIS^.

    Anyone expecting JtMS in a $20 MSRP product is deluding themselves.


    Why? I bought a JTMS at $35 a few years ago in FTV:20. I've since sold him because while he's useful in Commander, I got more value by trading him away for a whole slew of cards on my want list.

    Understandably the FTV printing was worth a lot less than the other versions, and in the long run it made little impact on his market value, but it sets the precedent that Wizards aren't afraid to print high value cards in something like this. Honestly, I wish they'd exercise that right a little more often, but meh.

    My concerns are him being the poster boy for Masters 25, and having already had a FTV printing both hurt the odds of us getting a mass reprint in this sort of product.


    Because his current FTV printing is $141.23, last checked?

    If they did put him in there, not a single actual player would see that product. It would be pre-sold and sent on eBay long before they ever get to a player.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Mini Announcment day
    The issue with doing PW cards for Urza, Serra, Leshrac, and the other absurdly powerful beings of Magic lore is that unless the card is a ten-mana "you win the game" card, it wouldn't be doing justice to the pure absurd power level of the oldwalkers. Oldwalkers were gods. Not Theros "kinda sorta" gods. They were completely unbeatable unless you were one or something similar (Yawgmoth).

    Quote from Colt47 »
    Quote from NRWGN »
    Imagine that Jace Signature Spellbook containing Jace, the Mind Sculptor and turning him from the Wallet Sculpter to the Peoples Sculpture. Crash the market. Eliminate the bourgeoisie.


    I think the more likely scenario is that since he's basically 8x the MSRP of the spellbook every single one gets bought out by scalpers or horded and no one sees them actually make it to the shelves. I'm probably pre-ordering one the second it shows up since at worse I'm getting a jace themed counterspell reprint from the jace vs chandra duel deck in foil, Fact or Fiction Jace duel deck reprint in foil, and possibly a Jace Beleren. I highly doubt they are going to put the most powerful version of jace in the FTV unless they literally hold the spoilers to a week before release.


    ^THIS^.

    Anyone expecting JtMS in a $20 MSRP product is deluding themselves.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on What does Wizards of the Coast need to do to improve magic the gathering?
    Quote from Colt47 »
    The primary issue is the scratch off ticket value from the booster pack is not making it feel worthwhile in regards to the maximum plausible reward from the pack. Also Iconic masters isn't leaving store shelves because the set was not worth the msrp to begin with. Honestly the set was actually pretty good. I'd say it was about at tenth edition level at the very least, but they priced it at twice the cost of a core set and only gave 2/3 of the same amount of product.

    The fact that they had to unban Jace and BBE is rather concerning, because that means Wizards is viewing the number of modern playable cards in the upcoming masters set as a problem. They can't suddenly pop more modern staples in a set that has already gone to the printers, but they can unban and make some older cards modern legal that were banned. Modern right now is the only thing letting cards hold value over being reprinted in these sets, and having the prices just collapse on older cards no one is actively playing is making the entire idea of a 240 dollar luxury set seem idiotic.


    I've seen this conspiracy theory floating around a lot. Do you have any proof Wizards unbanned Jace to sell Masters packs?

    Or could it be that a four mana Unsummon/Brainstorm/Fateseal in a format where you can and will die on that turn might not be appropriate on the banned list anymore? Against a good chunk of Tier 1 and Tier 2 Modern decks, Jace simply does nothing. And now that the format is stable, unbanning cards might help certain decks and matchups?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on What does Wizards of the Coast need to do to improve magic the gathering?
    Quote from misterpid »
    Quote from misterpid »
    [quote from="WarMachinePrime »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/789255-what-does-wizards-of-the-coast-need-to-do-to?comment=44"]


    .....

    The problem is that if a sealed product has a high enough EV compared to it's MSRP, then stores/sellers will have more incentive to either raise the price on the sealed product or just open it up and sell singles instead of selling the sealed product. We've seen this over and over throughout the history of the game. WotC obviously knows this happens and it looks like they want to limit the extent of it happening (mostly just with FTV products). If the sellers don't do either of those things, then they will most likely sell out of the product immediately and lots of people who want to buy the product from them won't be able to.

    Look around and you'll notice that people complain about the drop in the level of cards used in almost every type of sealed product compared to what we've had in the past. Most people seem to complain about it by saying that WotC is just being cheap and not giving people the cards that they really want. The way I see it is that they are being realistic about people being able to get sealed products at the MSRP.

    Is there a solution to this situation? I have no idea whether there is or not.


    Yes I know all of this. Many on the site do as well. There are a few delusional that think you should get twice the EV that you paid for. That's not what I or anyone else reasonable is advocating. What I'm saying is that if the average EV of a pack of Masters is around 3 to 4 bucks (And that is probably stretching it.) then MSRP should be no more than 2 times that amount at $6.99 a pack. There is nothing more feel bad than paying 10 bucks for a pack of Masters and opening it to find a worthless 25 cent bulk rare and an equally worthless common foil that isn't played anywhere. 10 dollars for 50 cents worth of value. Maybe I need to set up a stand at Magic tourneys and offer 2 shiny quarters for a ten dollar bill. Its almost the same lunacy.

    So there IS a solution to this. WotC/Hasbro needs to only reprint stronger, reasonable value cards in PREMIUM Masters sets. Screw the "configured for draft". That is what the Conspiracy line is for. Make it so EV of packs is targeted so you at least get half back what you paid for it. Sure some decks will come in way on the high side, but others will fall a slight bit below to balance it out. And yes this would probably take a new pack collation method, not their current one. I'm sure they will say that its time intensive and would cost them money to do so. I'd bet there is still "meat on the bone" per cost of pack produced to do this. But they will never share that information, they don't want us to know.

    Thanks for the response though. I think we need a discussion of this topic. Smile



    That type of system works if all of the rares/mythics have a value that fall within the given range. But no one will want to buy a set like that because none of the (non-foil) cards will be worth more than the cost of the pack. They need to have high dollar cards to draw interest in the set. The more high dollar cards they put into the set, the more "feel bad" cards are needed to create the correct balance.

    Let's take Masters 25 as an example. We know Jace, Phyrexian Obliterator and Azusa will all be in Masters 25. How should they balance out the set and achieve the desired average pack EV just based on those 3 cards being included?




    According to http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=sets&source=tcg_low&pack=1, using the lowest value indicator, assuming anything worth less than $1 is worthless, and not taking into account foils, EV on every Masters set before Iconic Masters is $6+, and even Iconic is $4+. Using mid-value indicator, it's closer to $6 for Iconic, $9 for most masters sets and over $18 for the original Modern Masters (and that's still ignoring anything worth less than $1 and ignoring foils).

    According to these numbers, you're already getting EV nearly equal to MSRP (or more, given the pessimistic assumptions) from every pack of Masters except Iconic, and even in Iconic the EV is not less than half the MSRP. So if you just want MSRP no more than two times EV, then Wizards has already satisfied your criteria.


    You're looking at current EV numbers for past sets, which are much higher than the EV of those sets when they were first released. What we are talking about is EV at the time of release or while the set is readily available. Yes, Modern Masters 2013 has an EV higher than the MSRP - but good luck finding packs for that price, or even for a price equal to the current EV.
    </blockquote>

    Except Iconic Masters is still in stores.

    You see a lot more complaints about Masters packs then you see praise for the same reason a popular restaurant will always have more negative reviews than positive ones: people are less likely to post when they are satisfied, and more likely to rage post when they are not.

    If you open three packs of Iconic Masters and pull a Mana Drain and a foil Aether Vial, you're not going to post outside a bragging thread. But if you buy three and get crap, you're more likely to post on here raging at the set. Compounded further if you got really unlucky and got a crap box.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on What does Wizards of the Coast need to do to improve magic the gathering?
    A lot of what people are asking on here will never (and probably should never) happen.

    I know people on here want $40 event decks with $300 worth of value in them. Maybe you're special and your game store will reserve a copy for you. Most people will watch those rot on a speculators shelf, or end up on eBay with severely inflated price.

    I know people on here want cheap Masters packs with a huge pack-to-value ratio. See above. Most boxes will just end up on collector's shelves.

    I know people on here want Wizards to not be the evil overlords of the world, the dreaded "SJW!". Yeah... okay... whatever... I didn't know Return of Kings was a Magic website.

    Solutions to Magic's issues are not that simple.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from Schondetta »
    Quote from motleyslayer »
    what decks will get strongest after the unbanning?


    my prediction is Temur aggro. you can BBE into visions with goyf and delver backup. all the worse parts of the bible wrapped up in one.


    Ugh, for the last time.

    BBE and Visions will almost never be in the same deck. Just because it works doesn't mean its good (especially without top deck manipulation).
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 15/01/18)
    I don't think Jace would be as scary as some are thinking. There are far more answers to planeswalkers than there were when Jace ruled the world, and Modern lacks the tools to protect him that Legacy has. He would be strong, but a 4 CMC card that either Brainstorms or Unsummons when it comes out in a format with fairly lackluster counter tools and a fast clock doesn't seem that overwhelming.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun - Can this card be good in casual play?
    Quote from Krimsonmask »
    Quote from LouCypher »
    It just requires so much work for a payoff that, once you get there, feels very much like a win-more situation. Plus, you need to keep your life total up as well. When people see what you're up to, you will be gunned for...it might just be too much work.

    Yeah I'm a bit pessimistic about this one.

    Totally agree. No reasonable playgroup with the most basic amounts of removal is going to allow you to flip this fairly. If you are trying to pull some shenanigans to flip it "unfairly", there are just easier ways to make infinite mana. It just seems like a bad way to loot to me.


    It's not infinite, and it's reusable. And yes, every card in the game can be removed. I prefer to think of what cards can do when they aren't. A deck with 40 threats and 20 lands will always beat a deck of 40 answers and 20 lands.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [POLL] What cards do you want banned or unbanned in the February 12, 2018 announcement?
    Quote from Aazadan »
    Quote from Shmanka »
    With the surprising rise of Field of Ruins, I can start to see how much better the card is suited towards all the control decks. I definitely under evaluated the card with spoiler season. With access to cheap removal, it holds the option like any other blue control deck to dismantle decks like Tron effectively without absolutely throwing each game into Wasteland Mirrors.

    I think the Lantern banning, if it ever occurs will start out with just banning Mox Opal. The ability to just play Lotus Petal's in that deck is what really makes it tick, and have access to all the colors. The deck to be on par with the rest of Modern, needs a manabase the deck can't effectively provide without being highly susceptible to other forms of hate.

    Locking your opponent out turn 3, without a discard spell, and emptying your hand is ridiculous, and only Mox Opal enables those.


    I understand the reasoning behing Mox Opal but it also comes with a lot of splash damage, most notably Affinity. I think that if Lantern needs hit, it should just be removed from the format, in which case the namesake card is the one to hit.

    Decks like Lantern are never going to be fun or fair. You're either ok with them in the format at any power level, or you remove them.


    Define "fair" in this context. Are "prison" style decks not fair? They've existed since Moat and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale were cards, so they've been around as long if not longer than every archetype. "Prison" by its very nature doesn't want its opponent to play cards, similar to hard control. Would you say the old style of deck (hard counters, instant draw, and one hard to deal with threat) is "unfair"?
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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