This will limit itself. If demand for the cards is high, that means that demand for the format is high. If demand for the format goes down due to prices, the prices will go down and demand for the format will return.
This point seems to be lost on a lot of people when they point to price as evidence for Legacy's demise.
Too many people use their own financial situation as a metric for measuring the accessibility of a format.
I don't buy foils or foreign language cards, but I do buy specific card art.
For example, I run Legacy RW Goblins and I bought the FTV Goblin Lackeys over the regular versions. Not because I wanted foil. Not because I wanted to collect them. Just because I HATE the art of the original.
In Legacy, most of us play with the same decks for quite some time and we like to play with cards that appeal to us. If one art is more pleasing to the individual playing the deck and the cost doesn't matter, then why not swap out or purchase the most appealing cards?
This cost difference is on a small scale, but I have a few friends who paid an enormous sum to get black bordered duals, just because they were black. They play with the decks constantly and hated the white border enough to justify the expenditure.
It boils down to justifying the money against your hate for your current situation... at least for me and my few friends.
Iam on the same band wagon but i run 2 Plateu.s
Almost all of my side board is W and i need some times 2 sources of W
I run 2 Plateaus as well. Most of my sideboard is white and I run Thalias main. I also have a taiga for TSH as I hate Scrapper.
With the 2 Plateaus and the 6 Fetches, you have 8 sources of White should you need it. I also run a Taiga which the fetches ensure I have when needed. I also have 2 warren wierdings in the SB with a Badlands that I can swap out should that matchup call for it.
The fetches greatly improve the consistency of the toolbox nature of the deck if you are not running Mono-Red.
Hey guys. I just got a set of ports so my deck is finally completely assembled, just had a quick question: If I just want one Plateau for 4x Thalia out of the board, how many fetches should I run? The rest of the mana base is the standard: 4x waste, 4x port, 4x cavern, 1x plateau, 9x mountain/fetch. What's the optimal ratio here? 4 fetch/5 mountain? 5 fetch/4 mountain? Something else?
I run RW Goblins and I'm running 6 fetches. 4 Arid Mesa and 2 Bloodstained Mires. It's been working well so far. 6 seems to provide the consistency I need to ensure I have that white source when I need it.
Does that work? TNN reads "can't be dealt damage", not "prevent all damage". I'm not a judge or anything, but I think the two are different things.
This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
I'm 100% new to Dredge - trying to learn it for the upcoming Legacy GP.
One question - why is Flayer of the Hatebound played? Am I missing some kind of recursion/power that wins the game? I realize that by himself, returned and with undying he can ping for 8 - is the idea that you just Sac/DR him multiple times to win through damage to the face?
Beyond that, it's just adding up Ichorid triggers off of him every turn right? I guess it's there, just seems awkward.
Am I missing some obvious interaction or is he just there as a backup win-con/clock accelerator?
If you have 2 Dread Return, then you can Therapy Flayer to get a total of 9 damage, followed by returning Grave Troll for 12+ damage to finish him/her off. Can potentially reduce the clock by a turn.
So, I finally got around to ACTUALLY testing my Blue Belcher list last night. Sadly, I faced literally nothing but Blue. Not sadly, I went 9-4 in games and 4-1-1 in matches.
The "draw" was a match against Sneak and Show that went 1-1 and then my internet crashed, but I felt pretty confident about the matchup.
I won through:
Daze
Pierce
Force
Force+Daze
2x Daze
I lost to a double Force (I had my own Force for one of them), a Grudge on my LED (because I foolishly dropped it before going off), and one really stupid game that should've been a win by all counts, but it turns out Turn 1 SnT Proggy does not beat a Sneak Attack. The sideboard would've mitigated some of this if I'd been using it, as it contains 4 Pact of Negation for Blue decks. So all of these games were pre-side.
I noticed you are only running 7 win conditions instead of the usual 10-11 in a normal belcher list. How often did you have to mulligan? Was keeping hands without a win condition an issue?
Wouldn't Show and Tell conflict with Pacts? You cannot wait the extra turn to attack with Proggy.
Additionally even with Show and Tell being your win con, you still have to have a belcher and/or proggy in hand to utilize it right? Comparitively Belcher, Burning Wish, and EtW don't need the other win conditions to function.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Belcher w/ Protection. The lack of such is why I've been looking elsewhere, but there seems to be some potential issues.
Just getting into Belcher. What do you guys think of this list? I'm on a bit of a budget but this is in my price range. I'm hoping to pick up 2-3 LEDs once I sell off the Goblins deck I never would be able to finish building and the Volcanic Island I inherited from a friend.
I was looking to build a legacy goblin deck and I have a full playset of LEDs and Burning Wishes. Can you send me a pm with what you have so far for the Goblin Deck and we might be able to work out a trade? If you have any Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, that'll be important too.
That being said, if you got the LEDs, which you desperately need to make any Belcher list function, then you'd also need a playset of Burning Wish to act as another set of win conditions. 8 is too few to be consistent enough to avoid mulligans. The burning wish cards also have tremendous synergy with LED.
Without (4) LEDs and (3-4) Burning Wishes, the list isn't quite explosive enough to be competitive.
Taiga is also a natural improvement over Stomping Ground, but for the purposes of this deck completely unnecessary.
Otherwise I don't see too many problems. Removing 7-8 cards to add the LEDs and Burning Wishes. I would remove the Street Wraiths, 1 EtW to the Wishboard, 1-2 ritual, and 2-3 Tinder Walls.
2 Tinder Walls in hand are often difficult to cast, but 1 is easy.
That seems pretty antagonistic and doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.
What's the point of this thread?
If the combo goes off one turn earlier than another combo, that doesn't make it better or worse as long as the combo can protect itself and force itself through. TRAMD is also asking for real world win times, not goldfishing, which is entirely dependent on the matchup/disruption/etc.
Even if we could come to some rough estimate of each combo deck's win times, what use is it?
Call it 007 or james bond. It has to with rogues winning the game. James bond is pretty rogue. Or you could call it Archer or Isis from the show "Archer". Just my two cents
At this point, no one can decide what to name it. Everyone is wanting to leave their mark by giving this sucker a name. There are many many names and everyone wants to name it what they want to name it. We are not going to reach an agreement discussing it here. It's going to take the deck winning a major event and the one who wins gives the name. Even then, everyone agreeing with it probably wont happen.
why do you say that? I mean we could try a more traditional reanimator plan with well.. Reanimate, Animate Dead etc. or try out Unburial Rites but those options feel subpar to me
Those options are subpar. It's the extra black mana. This deck's ability to produce 2 or more black mana is very poor. It can be done, but not reliably. Getting a single black mana source is already hard enough as it is and is one of the main constraints. Additionally you would have to have multiple to make sure they are drawn which take up valuable space. The only exception is Unburial Rites, but the white mana cost is near impossible to pay and paying the extra four mana is even more impossible. None of the typical reanimation strategies work with this deck in its current form, except Dread Return due to the zero mana cost.
In regard to Commune with Nature I believe the biggest draw back is that it is an sorcery. As a sorcery 3 important plays cannot be done:
- At end of opponent's turn play it, to ensure your draw, lessen the likelihood of the spell being countered when the opponent is tapped out and to keep your opponent 'in the dark' about what deck you're playing for 1 turn.
- Playing the spell during your upkeep, before your draw, to fix your draw into a card your actually need instead of a random, and possibly redundant card.
- Playing in the spell in response to a discard. Okay so this won't happen that often, but against a Duress for example, you can keep Wild Cantor, Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Tinder Wall, Balustrade Spy, Undercity Informer in your hand. Against something like Thoughtseize it would be less effective, but still you force an opponent to a smaller choice of cards, while your next draw can give you more value.
Still I am not against any suggestion, and it could be tried out at least. Though I am not convinced it can outperform Worldly Tutor.
I’m not convinced on Commune with Nature either, but just exploring new avenues. The plays you mentioned are great, but the idea of removing the wait was very enticing. Overall, using Commune is probably suboptimal, but I was just exploring a potential way to speed us up.
I’ve had matches where Commune got me the win against decks packing counter magic that would have stopped me if they had the chance to play mana.
I have already swapped the Worldly Tutors back, but it’s a possibility I’m keeping in mind.
This point seems to be lost on a lot of people when they point to price as evidence for Legacy's demise.
Too many people use their own financial situation as a metric for measuring the accessibility of a format.
This is what I've been using. It's mostly from an old build from Nudon, before he started supporting his new brew with Past in Flames.
3x Balustrade Spy
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Wild Cantor
1x Dragon Breath
1x Sutured Ghoul
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Grim Monolith
4x Living Wish
4x Lotus Petal
4x Narcomoeba
3x Pact of Negation
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Undercity Informer
1x Dread Return
1x Balustrade Spy
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Nature's Claim
1x Pact of Negation
5x Utility Lands
It feels very consistent and I've had very good results with it.
I'm still going back and forth between Sutured Ghoul and Lab Maniac. I love the one less dead card with Ghoul, but Maniac is more of a sure thing.
I don't buy foils or foreign language cards, but I do buy specific card art.
For example, I run Legacy RW Goblins and I bought the FTV Goblin Lackeys over the regular versions. Not because I wanted foil. Not because I wanted to collect them. Just because I HATE the art of the original.
In Legacy, most of us play with the same decks for quite some time and we like to play with cards that appeal to us. If one art is more pleasing to the individual playing the deck and the cost doesn't matter, then why not swap out or purchase the most appealing cards?
This cost difference is on a small scale, but I have a few friends who paid an enormous sum to get black bordered duals, just because they were black. They play with the decks constantly and hated the white border enough to justify the expenditure.
It boils down to justifying the money against your hate for your current situation... at least for me and my few friends.
I run 2 Plateaus as well. Most of my sideboard is white and I run Thalias main. I also have a taiga for TSH as I hate Scrapper.
With the 2 Plateaus and the 6 Fetches, you have 8 sources of White should you need it. I also run a Taiga which the fetches ensure I have when needed. I also have 2 warren wierdings in the SB with a Badlands that I can swap out should that matchup call for it.
The fetches greatly improve the consistency of the toolbox nature of the deck if you are not running Mono-Red.
I run RW Goblins and I'm running 6 fetches. 4 Arid Mesa and 2 Bloodstained Mires. It's been working well so far. 6 seems to provide the consistency I need to ensure I have that white source when I need it.
This is an argument for red, but it's not a great answer. The idea is that True Name attacks and you block with a creature. In response to True Name attacking you play Skullcrack and therefore the damage from blacking cannot be prevented and TNN dies.
Is there a Red or White option for RW Goblins?
If you have 2 Dread Return, then you can Therapy Flayer to get a total of 9 damage, followed by returning Grave Troll for 12+ damage to finish him/her off. Can potentially reduce the clock by a turn.
Did you have any consistency problems?
I noticed you are only running 7 win conditions instead of the usual 10-11 in a normal belcher list. How often did you have to mulligan? Was keeping hands without a win condition an issue?
Wouldn't Show and Tell conflict with Pacts? You cannot wait the extra turn to attack with Proggy.
Additionally even with Show and Tell being your win con, you still have to have a belcher and/or proggy in hand to utilize it right? Comparitively Belcher, Burning Wish, and EtW don't need the other win conditions to function.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Belcher w/ Protection. The lack of such is why I've been looking elsewhere, but there seems to be some potential issues.
I was looking to build a legacy goblin deck and I have a full playset of LEDs and Burning Wishes. Can you send me a pm with what you have so far for the Goblin Deck and we might be able to work out a trade? If you have any Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, that'll be important too.
That being said, if you got the LEDs, which you desperately need to make any Belcher list function, then you'd also need a playset of Burning Wish to act as another set of win conditions. 8 is too few to be consistent enough to avoid mulligans. The burning wish cards also have tremendous synergy with LED.
Without (4) LEDs and (3-4) Burning Wishes, the list isn't quite explosive enough to be competitive.
Taiga is also a natural improvement over Stomping Ground, but for the purposes of this deck completely unnecessary.
Otherwise I don't see too many problems. Removing 7-8 cards to add the LEDs and Burning Wishes. I would remove the Street Wraiths, 1 EtW to the Wishboard, 1-2 ritual, and 2-3 Tinder Walls.
2 Tinder Walls in hand are often difficult to cast, but 1 is easy.
Love Belcher. It's consistency is undeniable.
Best wishes mate.
That seems pretty antagonistic and doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.
What's the point of this thread?
If the combo goes off one turn earlier than another combo, that doesn't make it better or worse as long as the combo can protect itself and force itself through. TRAMD is also asking for real world win times, not goldfishing, which is entirely dependent on the matchup/disruption/etc.
Even if we could come to some rough estimate of each combo deck's win times, what use is it?
At this point, no one can decide what to name it. Everyone is wanting to leave their mark by giving this sucker a name. There are many many names and everyone wants to name it what they want to name it. We are not going to reach an agreement discussing it here. It's going to take the deck winning a major event and the one who wins gives the name. Even then, everyone agreeing with it probably wont happen.
Those options are subpar. It's the extra black mana. This deck's ability to produce 2 or more black mana is very poor. It can be done, but not reliably. Getting a single black mana source is already hard enough as it is and is one of the main constraints. Additionally you would have to have multiple to make sure they are drawn which take up valuable space. The only exception is Unburial Rites, but the white mana cost is near impossible to pay and paying the extra four mana is even more impossible. None of the typical reanimation strategies work with this deck in its current form, except Dread Return due to the zero mana cost.
I’m not convinced on Commune with Nature either, but just exploring new avenues. The plays you mentioned are great, but the idea of removing the wait was very enticing. Overall, using Commune is probably suboptimal, but I was just exploring a potential way to speed us up.
I’ve had matches where Commune got me the win against decks packing counter magic that would have stopped me if they had the chance to play mana.
I have already swapped the Worldly Tutors back, but it’s a possibility I’m keeping in mind.
What does your deck list currently look like?