Hey guys, been playing the deck on and off for a year or so now. Just picked it back up again, I'm playing a pretty standard 'no shuffle' version of the deck. Having a lot of trouble with Infect. I currently bring in an extra Slaughter Pact, a Duress, Favor the Mighty, Echoing Truth, Drown in Sorrow, and Supreme Verdict. Some of the cards are pretty good when I draw them, most of the time the sweepers are too slow. And this just seems really tough overall, even when I draw my SB cards.
Wondering if anyone else had other strategies or SB ideas? Or is this match up just hopeless? Maybe there are certain ways I could be playing it that I'm missing? Let me know what you guys think.
So, I just wrote an incredibly long post and accidentally Xed out the window. This will be substantially shorter as a product of my irritation.
I've been testing a BUG build for a couple weeks now on Cockatrice. I was running a simic build prior to this and I have to say the Black really fills the deck out. Yes there is Deathrite and Korozda Guildmage but more so, the potential sideboard options are incredibly useful. We get Ultimate Price to help with the hasty red creatures, Abrupt Decay to deal with all sorts of nonsense and, more importantly, Durress and Golgari Charm to deal with the sweeps. I've gone unsweeped in games where opponents have drawn up to 3 sweepers with the combination of the two cards. Terminus will always be a pain though. Duress also has many more applications, like eating Walkers, Sphinx's, and burn. Whatever you may need.
They other key to success was adding the Garruks to the deck. I have been running 5 with a 2/3 split in favor of the smaller guy. They just give you so many options, and so much play in the mid-to-late-game. If you start to think of them as spells in certain situations, and not planeswalkers, the large number of Garruks makes way more sense . As token producers,they both do great work in combination with Biomancer. Not to mention, the smaller Garruk gives an awesome amount of utility to the deck, allowing you to run one-ofs with way more consistency both in the main AND the board (Zegana, Hoof), or just tutor up the missing piece of the Korozda/Biomancer combo to finish off the game, or even just find our lord to beef up our guys and alpha strike for the win. Not to mention he can deal with Reckoner, Hunstmaster, and some other troublesome creatures that Decay and Price can't hit.
There is tons more I can say, but I'd like to hear some other opinions. I'm probably wrong about some things. But the testing has been fantastic against the majority of match-ups so far.
No decklist, guy claimed it was a "real deck" but who knows. Black/blue with maybe a red splash (saw one BR dual iirc). The win condition seemed to be wurmcoil engine which is also fairly resilient to our deck's plan.
But it was the fact I couldn't keep him from playing tormods crypt repeatedly between trinket mage and academy ruins. And if I did keep it under control with fulminator/beast then my living end would get countered anyways and I'm left hard-casting carabids against wurmcoil engines :/
It's not so much that specific deck as it is that we can deal with counterspells and we can deal with graveyard hate, but dealing with both at the same time is a very tough slog that probably requires god draws.
I don't really see the problem with almost any counterspell matchup. I actually love playing against the counters, it's pretty easy to just jam Living Ends. I really think, with the correct play, that those are favorable match ups. Most decks don't run enough counters to keep up with our threats. And if they are splitting that between counter AND grave hate, the counters just become less relevant and we can get through grave hate with good sideboarding.
All the real bad stuff is artifact based, and the real heavy hitters usually require activations. Krosan Grip can just blow them out in SB games. It should be considered if there seems to be extra troublesome artifacts, or even enchantments, in your meta.
What are your guys thoughts on Ricochet Trap? I'm bran new to storm, thinking about the Epic Electromancer build. You think it's worth sideboard slots?
You know....it would be quite the pump spell for a Piked creature. You could win games out of no where. This Thought Scour and Dimir Charm milling yourself and setting up Delvers, you could get to a big Pike faster than ever. And with all the flashback floating around, I could see this card doing a variety of things in Esper Delver. Which I think will become a force in Standard.
This is very close to my list. I run 2 jund charms in the main for -1 beast within and -1 pale recluse. I also run 3x riccochet trap in the board because I guess I'm one of the few players who cares about having my living ends countered :/ I haven't tried gnaw yet, have been sticking with 4x brindle boar. I want to try gnaw out though and see which is better in the matchup. Also if its close, does gnaw have application in other matchups?
Tron and RDW are the two matchups I've found consistently difficult with this build.
I've done well enough fighting through the counters that I don't need to dedicate the sideboard slot to them. We are much worse in other matchups in my opinion, and and EOT Violent Outburst followed up by a Demonic Dread will usually do any Blue deck in. Or suspending a living end with a Violent Outburst/Demonic Dread in hand will usually offer the same results. Just jaming Living Ends seems to do counters in just fine. Especially if you keep the Land D up.
I've actually switched my deck up slightly in light of the Top 4 list. It's looking something like this now.
I'm thinking something like this will have the versatility to take almost any matchup. I like the two Architects of Will to bump up the one mana cycler count. I can't stress enough how big Leyline of Sanctity is going to be for this deck. I'm really not sure about a couple of slots in the SB but other wise I'm pretty sold on this build. Things I'm questioning are, should I MD the Jund Charms? Should I MD another Avalanche Riders? I really want 12 Land D spells between MD and SB. Do I just want a Fourth Ingot Chewer instead of a Krosan Grip? Do I want Krosan Grip at all? Also, should I be making room for other utility lands in the mana base? I know I run a very skimpy amount of lands, but it definitely works in most situations. But I'm not sure if an extra colorless or two would throw **** in upheaval. Or maybe the man land, I really like the idea of Ravaging Ravine.
I guess I'd like to hear some input in regards to Jund Charm, Avalanche Riders, and Krosan Grip. I'm trying to make some evaluations in regards to the importance of these in respective match ups. I also don't know how well Leyline of Sanctity plays, so I'm not sure if I NEED the Gnaw to the Bone. Which could free up another slot, but I can totally see the Gnaw being helpful, and may wanna go the other way and cut a Krosan Grip or something for an extra Gnaw to give the time to set up the Sanctity in the relevant match ups where I don't draw it opening hand. Basically, my mind is racing...someone ground me here, hah.
@Michai
I think Wispmare isn't good, even if GW Aura and white decks with Honor of the Pure and/or Intangible Virtue take off. You got a field wipe with Living End so even if they pump their dudes to 4/4 creatures, it doesn't matter if they die to Living End.
You're also overvaluing Leyline of Sanctity because it isn't that good against Jund and Second Breakfast can bounce it with Echoing Truth. It does stop Lava Spike and Flames of the Blood Hand in the Burn match-up, but that doesn't seem worth it if you have four copies of Brindle Boar along with Kitchen Finks and Obstinate Baloth.
Finally, my tips for the four match-ups you listed are:
1. Don't side Ingot Chewer in to deal with Spellskite, just use Living End and Dismember to stop their combo. I recommend siding three copies of Dismember for this match-up.
2. Same thing, just use Living End and Dismember, and maybe Jund Charm and Lingering Souls.
3. Just use Living End to board-wipe, but g2 is significantly harder since they have Relic and Rule of Law/Canonist. I recommend bringing in all copies of Beast Within, Ingot Chewer, and Krosan's Grip.
4. Brindle Boar, Kitchen Finks, and Obstinate Baloth and you should probably side out Fulminator Mage for this match-up since their lands are all Mountains and Blood Crypts.
I really don't think the Leyline of Sanctity is being overvalued here. You talk about adding 4 Boars plus having Kitchen Finks and Baloth? That's a lot of the sideboard dedicated to one matchup, that still isn't a solid win percentage with all of those cards in. And that doesn't even help us in the storm matchup like Leyline of Sanctity does. For four sideboard slots, we gain a HUGE upperhand in matchups that were near puntable before.
I agree that whispmare is no good, I would rather have the Krosan Grip or Beast Within deal with enchantments. Or just Living End away the enchanted creatures.
While I don't know about the MD Disember or even Jund Charm, nor the SB Maelstrom Pulse or Dampening Matrix...and I don't understand the Baloth....I really like the Leline of Sanctity. It's a huge breakthrough for our bad MUs.
I also like the idea of two Architects of Will. I agree with everyone that the body is no good, but I think it's worth it for the extra one mana cyclers. Especially now with a viable answer for almost every single matchup tucked away in the sideboard. It will help with the ability to reach those answers.
Artifacts are still a big issue so I would probably keep the Ingot Chewers at four, or maybe a pair of Krosan Grip instead of another two Chewers.
I also agree that there needs to be a second white source for Leline of Sanctity hard cast. Probably a Godless Shrine so Verdant and Recluses can both find it. I would also get rid of the Rannet for another Pale Recluse. We would already have enough fragile bodies with the Architects. Probably want Avalanch Riders and another Beast Within instead of the Jund Charms and Disemeber MD. I think keeping up on the Land D is important. Probably move those cards to the SB and get rid of the Dampening Matrix and Maelstrom Pulse. Just some thoughts.
Overall I really like the ideas in this list and am already tweaking my deck accordingly. I really think the builds inspired by this list will be much more versatile.
What do you guys think of this build? Weaker to what and stronger to what based on the selected sideboard and MD choices? I'll take an input in regards to changing the deck, or thoughts on a different build. Let me know what you guys think.
Keep in mind our meta is non-existent as very few if any around here have jumped into the Modern arena (apparently everyone is waiting for Modern Masters before commiting). I've gone heavy on the graveyard hate obviously, not sure why, just a hunch. In the event a Jund/Tron heavy meta develops (likely) I may lose the Leylines and add a Fulminator and maybe even an Avalanche Rider to hate out mana bases. I do love how Faerie Macabre can serve double duty protecting your Living Ends from Extraction effects in the event of a long game with multiple Ends.
The only real change I would suggest is switching the counts on Fulminator Mage and Architects of Will. I think the Land D is one of our best 'hidden modes', not to mention that Architects of Will just don't cycle as easily as the other one-mana cyclers due to the color constriction. I think cutting an Architect for a Fulminator would be a sound move. And not really mess with things too much. If you're really sold on the Architects maybe switch a Stomping Ground for a Steam Vents, so you can hard cast the Architects if you need to?
Just some thoughts.
Also, I've been mulling over this question if anyone would care to give some input. Are there situations where we just straight up want Abrupt Decay over Beast Within? If so, do those situations arise enough to consider it as a viable sideboard option? Is this relevant enough to cut some of the other solidified sideboard cards? I guess this is all meta dependent...but I'd love to hear what people think about this. I don't necessarily have a list to apply this to, or an example meta to speak of, just thinking more generally.
I just wanted to make a small contribution in regards to peoples misconceptions of the deck's viability. I can't think of a single match up or situation where you 'definitely scoop'. We aren't Second Breakfast or something where a Leyline turn one ends it. I don't believe a good Living End player should ever give up on a match. We can really pull victories out of our asses with the unexpected versatility. And, with the proper meta investigation and subsequent sideboarding this deck can be incredibly resilient to all sorts of hate. When properly piloted, you can almost always pull out the win no matter the circumstances. Sure sometimes we'll need a little luck, or things to fall into place, but that's part of the game. The important thing is that this deck almost ALWAYS has a chance. It's a beautiful thing about the deck that I think most people miss, and really underestimate it's ability. Which also just helps us even more, and feeds into what I'm trying to say.
Having said that, I'm fairly new to modern and haven't been piloting the deck TOO long, so I could easily be off base with my assumption. I've never played the deck in paper form. But I just wanted to make a response in regards to some comments I've seen the read, 'we are dead, or should just scoop, if this if this happens. Or 'if they can get [insert card] on the board it's over'. I think you sell the deck short, and miss out on some fantastic wins, by adopting that mindset. Not trying to argue, just offering a different perspective. I think we can always give ourselves an out if we are prepared, we shouldn't forget that.
Wondering if anyone else had other strategies or SB ideas? Or is this match up just hopeless? Maybe there are certain ways I could be playing it that I'm missing? Let me know what you guys think.
3 Master Biomancer
3 Garruk Relentless
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Thragtusk
3 Yeva, Nature's Herald
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Korozda Guildmage
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Visionary
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Simic Charm
Land
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
7 Forest
It changes every day. But this is where I am right now.
I've been testing a BUG build for a couple weeks now on Cockatrice. I was running a simic build prior to this and I have to say the Black really fills the deck out. Yes there is Deathrite and Korozda Guildmage but more so, the potential sideboard options are incredibly useful. We get Ultimate Price to help with the hasty red creatures, Abrupt Decay to deal with all sorts of nonsense and, more importantly, Durress and Golgari Charm to deal with the sweeps. I've gone unsweeped in games where opponents have drawn up to 3 sweepers with the combination of the two cards. Terminus will always be a pain though. Duress also has many more applications, like eating Walkers, Sphinx's, and burn. Whatever you may need.
They other key to success was adding the Garruks to the deck. I have been running 5 with a 2/3 split in favor of the smaller guy. They just give you so many options, and so much play in the mid-to-late-game. If you start to think of them as spells in certain situations, and not planeswalkers, the large number of Garruks makes way more sense . As token producers,they both do great work in combination with Biomancer. Not to mention, the smaller Garruk gives an awesome amount of utility to the deck, allowing you to run one-ofs with way more consistency both in the main AND the board (Zegana, Hoof), or just tutor up the missing piece of the Korozda/Biomancer combo to finish off the game, or even just find our lord to beef up our guys and alpha strike for the win. Not to mention he can deal with Reckoner, Hunstmaster, and some other troublesome creatures that Decay and Price can't hit.
There is tons more I can say, but I'd like to hear some other opinions. I'm probably wrong about some things. But the testing has been fantastic against the majority of match-ups so far.
I don't really see the problem with almost any counterspell matchup. I actually love playing against the counters, it's pretty easy to just jam Living Ends. I really think, with the correct play, that those are favorable match ups. Most decks don't run enough counters to keep up with our threats. And if they are splitting that between counter AND grave hate, the counters just become less relevant and we can get through grave hate with good sideboarding.
All the real bad stuff is artifact based, and the real heavy hitters usually require activations. Krosan Grip can just blow them out in SB games. It should be considered if there seems to be extra troublesome artifacts, or even enchantments, in your meta.
I've done well enough fighting through the counters that I don't need to dedicate the sideboard slot to them. We are much worse in other matchups in my opinion, and and EOT Violent Outburst followed up by a Demonic Dread will usually do any Blue deck in. Or suspending a living end with a Violent Outburst/Demonic Dread in hand will usually offer the same results. Just jaming Living Ends seems to do counters in just fine. Especially if you keep the Land D up.
I've actually switched my deck up slightly in light of the Top 4 list. It's looking something like this now.
4 Pale Recluse
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Avalanche Riders
2 Architects of Will
2 Jungle Weaver
Spells
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
4 Beast Within
3 Living End
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Jund Charm
2 Avalanche Riders
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gnaw to the Bone
I'm thinking something like this will have the versatility to take almost any matchup. I like the two Architects of Will to bump up the one mana cycler count. I can't stress enough how big Leyline of Sanctity is going to be for this deck. I'm really not sure about a couple of slots in the SB but other wise I'm pretty sold on this build. Things I'm questioning are, should I MD the Jund Charms? Should I MD another Avalanche Riders? I really want 12 Land D spells between MD and SB. Do I just want a Fourth Ingot Chewer instead of a Krosan Grip? Do I want Krosan Grip at all? Also, should I be making room for other utility lands in the mana base? I know I run a very skimpy amount of lands, but it definitely works in most situations. But I'm not sure if an extra colorless or two would throw **** in upheaval. Or maybe the man land, I really like the idea of Ravaging Ravine.
I guess I'd like to hear some input in regards to Jund Charm, Avalanche Riders, and Krosan Grip. I'm trying to make some evaluations in regards to the importance of these in respective match ups. I also don't know how well Leyline of Sanctity plays, so I'm not sure if I NEED the Gnaw to the Bone. Which could free up another slot, but I can totally see the Gnaw being helpful, and may wanna go the other way and cut a Krosan Grip or something for an extra Gnaw to give the time to set up the Sanctity in the relevant match ups where I don't draw it opening hand. Basically, my mind is racing...someone ground me here, hah.
I really don't think the Leyline of Sanctity is being overvalued here. You talk about adding 4 Boars plus having Kitchen Finks and Baloth? That's a lot of the sideboard dedicated to one matchup, that still isn't a solid win percentage with all of those cards in. And that doesn't even help us in the storm matchup like Leyline of Sanctity does. For four sideboard slots, we gain a HUGE upperhand in matchups that were near puntable before.
I agree that whispmare is no good, I would rather have the Krosan Grip or Beast Within deal with enchantments. Or just Living End away the enchanted creatures.
I also like the idea of two Architects of Will. I agree with everyone that the body is no good, but I think it's worth it for the extra one mana cyclers. Especially now with a viable answer for almost every single matchup tucked away in the sideboard. It will help with the ability to reach those answers.
Artifacts are still a big issue so I would probably keep the Ingot Chewers at four, or maybe a pair of Krosan Grip instead of another two Chewers.
I also agree that there needs to be a second white source for Leline of Sanctity hard cast. Probably a Godless Shrine so Verdant and Recluses can both find it. I would also get rid of the Rannet for another Pale Recluse. We would already have enough fragile bodies with the Architects. Probably want Avalanch Riders and another Beast Within instead of the Jund Charms and Disemeber MD. I think keeping up on the Land D is important. Probably move those cards to the SB and get rid of the Dampening Matrix and Maelstrom Pulse. Just some thoughts.
Overall I really like the ideas in this list and am already tweaking my deck accordingly. I really think the builds inspired by this list will be much more versatile.
4 Street Wraith
3 Avalanche Riders
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Pale Recluse
3 Jungle Weaver
Spells
4 Beast Within
3 Living End
4 Violent Outburst
4 Demonic Dread
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Brindle Boar
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Krosan Grip
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Avalanche Riders
What do you guys think of this build? Weaker to what and stronger to what based on the selected sideboard and MD choices? I'll take an input in regards to changing the deck, or thoughts on a different build. Let me know what you guys think.
The only real change I would suggest is switching the counts on Fulminator Mage and Architects of Will. I think the Land D is one of our best 'hidden modes', not to mention that Architects of Will just don't cycle as easily as the other one-mana cyclers due to the color constriction. I think cutting an Architect for a Fulminator would be a sound move. And not really mess with things too much. If you're really sold on the Architects maybe switch a Stomping Ground for a Steam Vents, so you can hard cast the Architects if you need to?
Just some thoughts.
Also, I've been mulling over this question if anyone would care to give some input. Are there situations where we just straight up want Abrupt Decay over Beast Within? If so, do those situations arise enough to consider it as a viable sideboard option? Is this relevant enough to cut some of the other solidified sideboard cards? I guess this is all meta dependent...but I'd love to hear what people think about this. I don't necessarily have a list to apply this to, or an example meta to speak of, just thinking more generally.
Having said that, I'm fairly new to modern and haven't been piloting the deck TOO long, so I could easily be off base with my assumption. I've never played the deck in paper form. But I just wanted to make a response in regards to some comments I've seen the read, 'we are dead, or should just scoop, if this if this happens. Or 'if they can get [insert card] on the board it's over'. I think you sell the deck short, and miss out on some fantastic wins, by adopting that mindset. Not trying to argue, just offering a different perspective. I think we can always give ourselves an out if we are prepared, we shouldn't forget that.