Been looking at some interesting options. I like the idea of getting some of our useful cards back into the deck if they happen to be blown up or discarded.
Wheel of sun and moon.
Mistveil plains.
Hall of heliod's generosity.
Sun/moon just lets us keep the deck full. Though it probably interferes with the belcher plan.
Mistveil lets us grab any card we want and have it put back to the library. Including our board wipes,chant effects.
Heliod might be the best since we are heavy on enchantment.
Wanted to try some fun ideas at the next legacy fnm. If I can get a hold of some of these.
Also going to try a porphory nodes main deck with one of these graveyard to library effects as a repeatable effect.
Also goibg to be trying 2-3 ancient tombs for speed since I can't do cities.
one possible concern with gearhulk. if we have some of our opponents threats O-ringed. then we risk them getting the threats back once we have to choose our permanents to keep.
Forgive me but I can't see people knowing about helm rip as a huge issue. I mean knowing about it and stopping it are different things.
Decks with p needle effects game one where they preemptively name Helm are d n t and its Revokers and some Depths lists. Both are pretty easy matches regardless of wincon.
If they name them then your Scroll rack works as they are not naming it, and Cursed Scroll/ Humility/whatever eats through d n ts army.
Depths makes 20s that get removed via Karakas if you run it or plain old spot removal.
One hit forced through won't do it due to Zuran, and getting any hit in is hard with Chant about. Not to mention Blood Moon main. I can see you might want to surprise them with Belcher when they name Helm but you should win those games anyway as soon as the Land Tax engine is online there is inebitability.
For other decks, yes, sometimes they kill RIP in response to Helm, but generally good play beats that, e. g. having two RIPs down, or using Orim's to force them to use their removal midgame on the RIP if you have five mana up. To an extent if they hold a Decay spell you can tax their mana as they can't afford to tap out. Again once you are scrack/taxing you are good to go and if they are killing the combo bits they are not hurting the engine. We are a control deck after all.
The main point about helm/rip is that the cards have value by themselves. Helm by itself is just good against cheat a critter deck, but RIP otoh, is a very good card by itself vs Storm, Fins, all 3 reanimators, both Dredges, and many snapcaster/miracles decks, especially post accumulated knowledge tech, and grixis control with snappy and K command.
In the days of bug/jund tammy it did a job too on tammy and still does over KOTR beats.
I do get Charbelcher though. Good card, wins the game in one. I just want to stick up for RIP helm.
I run Nahiri side. It is pretty flexible and is good when the engine is inhibited.
If you run it main then maybe Emmrakul is worth it? I have never found room and it us not worth it for me.
I used to run unexpectedly absent, good with helm, can protect our stuff. It was good, but at that point I was getting it in by cutting Swords to Plow, which only worked when my meta was very low on dudes. A singleton copy is sometimes worth it.
CJ seems wrong, sure it hits TNN where O ring can't but you have Humility or Halo for that. O ring or Cast out being Tutorable is better, esp if someone Shows them in for you.
not saying helm/rip is bad. it's mostly that the decks in my local meta handle stopping the combo pieces from hitting the board pretty well or they have answers. I haven't had it come through for me yet. Come to think of it. I haven't really tried using helm as a way to get one of their dudes as a way to stall or something. I'm gonna try for that next week. I still have a lot to figure out with the deck at least its good fun to play.
so this next week. gonna slam some StPs in the deck and see how that goes, and I'll try to put some work in with the helms.
I played more tonight and charbelcher is still a champ. People are too keen on knowing the possible helm wincon when RIP hits play and it's won me less games than the good ol cannon. It's hard to reliably get into play from what i've experienced. for local meta reasons i might try to run some alternate cards to throw people off. Not sure as what to try. I'll keep them in as they are for now
So far I don't miss ivory tower mainboard. currently running nahiri mainboard for the filtering and permanent control.
i was suggested trying out council's judgements in place of o-rings mainboard. but that takes away from o-ring being tutorable. So i'm probably passing on that.
As much as I like path to exile. I'm also contemplating swapping for StP. Last few legacy Fnms, ramping my opponent's mana hasn't ended well for me since they start going bigger sooner with their control plan and gain advantage.
Did some more testing and came up with Charbelcher being able to send cards to the bottom if you're in a "no shuffle" effect situation while rack is in play. it's expensive but at least you can target something and still send X cards to the bottom and start seeing some fresh cards. not optimal but it might help to keep in mind if the situation comes up.
I played against my friend who was on Parfait. I used Sneak & Breach and I can only assume that he kept bad hands because I never saw anything but lands hit the board on his side. How does Parfait stop a T1/2 win against something like that? I'd like to build it, but I don't like that it can get blown out early to combo.
pithing needle on sneak attack is probably the one of the few things we could do. otherwise parfait has tough time against super fast combo.
show and tell is much easier since you can play O-ring or humility off of their show and tell and shut everything down immediately.
Honestly tower is just such a strong low cost value card. It can buy you time without the resource loss associated with zorb. I think I have covered your concerns before so I can not touch on those right now unless required. I will suggest tithe as the shuffle effect of choice, it was why I originally had plateaus.
other night came up against round 1 goblins. won that one out. 2nd game got knocked down to one with trinisphere on field. got a zuran orb down to heal up and landed a charbelcher to kill their creactures under humility until they couldnt play anything and i could target them for the kill. they scooped early.
Rest of the rounds were straight up control and they didn't care for any life points gained unless they were coming in with mentor+ monks, otherwise I was jaced out of the game, While i did manage to remove planeswalkers etc, they still won out. I do realize now I probably gave my opponent a bit too much time to search/set up. but if i'm facing off against a lot of control decks i'd like to work on making some changes or learning the match up better.
oddly enough charbelcher did a lot of work. it came down more often than helm/RIP. It's a champ card.
been doing a lot of play testing at my Lgs, I keep running into the same situation in where scroll rack is in play, but absolutely no way to shuffle and dig deeper aside from holding onto your cards and digging 1 card deeper each turn (which is awful cause we need to be making plays).
Whether it's from the opponent removing tax or just ending up in a situation where you have no choice but to play more lands in order to make some plays just to stabilize somewhat. It feels bad and it happened multiple games tonight.
Brought to my attention by another player. we're strongly going for removing ivory tower from the list. Just about every game I've drawn it, i'd wish it were a different card. maybe Up the zuran orb count to 2. I feel like I don't see them in the hands I get and e tutoring for it feels like a waste at some points.
I also feel the deck needs to speed up at the expense of opening up some enemy hate cards. I'm tempted to try city of traitors and a small land package into the manabase. Probably karakas, Maze and cities. and possibly 1-2 arid mesa and 2 extra shuffle effects.
I'd also love to test a version of the deck with a blue splash, but I lack mindsculptors currently.
Reanimator is not actually that easy anyway. The non blue versions running Chancellor can delay that RIP with the t0 and drop a sire or GB. They are very fast. Blue versions will most likely be able to close out the first removal spell post Grisselbrand via the card draw too, and possibly the second, or just reanimate Iona.
I run 2 karakas and a maze as part of the 18 land 5 moxen count, I find it makes the reanimator match easier in matches where they go off prior to RIP, even if it makes activating L tax a bit more thought intensive. I like them for bouncing Teeg in Maverick, too, but it is still not the cake walk that other bin decks like Dredge/Lands are.
If it keeps coming up in matchups I could start running a karakas or two in the deck. On the other hand we apparently had 3+ goblin players, 2-3 depths decks. 1 ad nauseam, a spanish inquisition, Dnt, Sneak and Show, a janky legacy UG deck (I don't think the poor guy won a single game) and I think 2 reanimators, Doomsday(this surprised me a lot I thought the deck would be nearly dead with the probe ban), and me on parfait. I think I got decently lucky with my pairings.
though overall pretty diverse meta for the night which suprised me. Sneak went exactly how I hoped it would lmao.
Played a tournament tonight and did pretty well. I played WeaponX's BDI parfait list+sideboard.
Round 1- DnT
game one- I mulled to 5 and didnt draw into land while they ported and beat me down. nothing special there.
game 2- needle on vial and PtE/oblivion ring when necessary. I was able to turn 5 Rip/helm.
game 3- this is the only game I got the land tax/rack engine going in the whole tournament. kept their board clear as i could. chanted them to time walk them and give myself time to draw into what I needed. they prolonged the game by end stepping my helm with flickerwisp. helm/rip'd them out of the game after a wrath of god to make sure I wouldnt be dying to beat down.
round 2- mono Black reanimator worst game of the tournament.
game 1- he gets an early sire of insanity. I top deck Path and exile it. and we're in topdeck mode. I dont draw anything relevant and he wins the topdeck war.
Game 2- turn 2 sire of insanity. I draw into no removal or anything relevant and die to beat down.
Round 3 UR Sneak and Show
game one- turn one and two I dont have anything playable. He Show and tells omniscience and I show Oblivion Ring targeting omni. My next turn i draw humility and play pithing needle blindly naming sneak attack Since I remember him playing Mono blue Show and tell, and he had mentioned he was borrowing this deck from a friend for tonight so it wasn't the same list as before. Next turn he show and tells again and I show humility. I was able to helm/rip a few turns later.
all i could think to side in was pyroblast for omni and coucil for w/e target.
Game 2- I mull to 6 finding humility and wait for show and tell. He show and tells and plays Emrakul and I place humility. . We end up top decking for a few turns while he hits me with his 1/1 for a few turns until I find charblecher. I play it and over 3 turns I hit him for 3 damage then 2 and on my 3rd charbelcher targeting him I managed to hit 10 cards and the final being mountain for lethal. great because I wasn't able to have land tax hit the field due to spell pierces.
Turns out he has no relevant hate cards for my deck seeing as humility is fringe as hell in legacy. He was also very caught off guard by the charbelcher win condition lol.
Final round Player needed to head out and we agreed to split.
Turns out he was on Ad nauseum Tendrils. I kind of wish we got to play. I wanted to see how the match up would go pre/post sideboard.
Overall I really like the list so far. I'm going to stick with it unless I feel changes are needed. Only problems I ran into was not having lands when I had Moxes in hand or not drawing into relevant cards, but that happens.
I have this deck put together minus a working sideboard. Mostly weapon's list in his sig. I'll be taking it to the next legacy night once I can get some leylines lol. I'll report back with how it does. I know we have a constant mono blue omnishow player so i'm hoping to just drop humility and oblivion rings through SnT to stop their shenanigans for free.
i'd assume not. since you'd be taking away fodder targets for ichorid. LED's can also be targets for counter magic and then you'll get absolutely zero value out of them once they hit the graveyard. so best way to play LEDs would be just playing LED dredge and not manaless, since the LEDs are there mostly for faithless looting flashbacks.
What does everyone think about the new goblin chainwhirler? It could do some serious work clearing the field. hitting a ton of 1 toughness creatures in the format. If running kiki, you've got repeatable damage to everything.
Wheel of sun and moon.
Mistveil plains.
Hall of heliod's generosity.
Sun/moon just lets us keep the deck full. Though it probably interferes with the belcher plan.
Mistveil lets us grab any card we want and have it put back to the library. Including our board wipes,chant effects.
Heliod might be the best since we are heavy on enchantment.
Wanted to try some fun ideas at the next legacy fnm. If I can get a hold of some of these.
Also going to try a porphory nodes main deck with one of these graveyard to library effects as a repeatable effect.
Also goibg to be trying 2-3 ancient tombs for speed since I can't do cities.
I like that idea. since im running nahiri main. that'd be an interesting grab target. still able to be cast unlike emmy if you draw it early.
not saying helm/rip is bad. it's mostly that the decks in my local meta handle stopping the combo pieces from hitting the board pretty well or they have answers. I haven't had it come through for me yet. Come to think of it. I haven't really tried using helm as a way to get one of their dudes as a way to stall or something. I'm gonna try for that next week. I still have a lot to figure out with the deck at least its good fun to play.
so this next week. gonna slam some StPs in the deck and see how that goes, and I'll try to put some work in with the helms.
So far I don't miss ivory tower mainboard. currently running nahiri mainboard for the filtering and permanent control.
i was suggested trying out council's judgements in place of o-rings mainboard. but that takes away from o-ring being tutorable. So i'm probably passing on that.
As much as I like path to exile. I'm also contemplating swapping for StP. Last few legacy Fnms, ramping my opponent's mana hasn't ended well for me since they start going bigger sooner with their control plan and gain advantage.
pithing needle on sneak attack is probably the one of the few things we could do. otherwise parfait has tough time against super fast combo.
show and tell is much easier since you can play O-ring or humility off of their show and tell and shut everything down immediately.
other night came up against round 1 goblins. won that one out. 2nd game got knocked down to one with trinisphere on field. got a zuran orb down to heal up and landed a charbelcher to kill their creactures under humility until they couldnt play anything and i could target them for the kill. they scooped early.
Rest of the rounds were straight up control and they didn't care for any life points gained unless they were coming in with mentor+ monks, otherwise I was jaced out of the game, While i did manage to remove planeswalkers etc, they still won out. I do realize now I probably gave my opponent a bit too much time to search/set up. but if i'm facing off against a lot of control decks i'd like to work on making some changes or learning the match up better.
oddly enough charbelcher did a lot of work. it came down more often than helm/RIP. It's a champ card.
Whether it's from the opponent removing tax or just ending up in a situation where you have no choice but to play more lands in order to make some plays just to stabilize somewhat. It feels bad and it happened multiple games tonight.
Brought to my attention by another player. we're strongly going for removing ivory tower from the list. Just about every game I've drawn it, i'd wish it were a different card. maybe Up the zuran orb count to 2. I feel like I don't see them in the hands I get and e tutoring for it feels like a waste at some points.
I also feel the deck needs to speed up at the expense of opening up some enemy hate cards. I'm tempted to try city of traitors and a small land package into the manabase. Probably karakas, Maze and cities. and possibly 1-2 arid mesa and 2 extra shuffle effects.
I'd also love to test a version of the deck with a blue splash, but I lack mindsculptors currently.
If it keeps coming up in matchups I could start running a karakas or two in the deck. On the other hand we apparently had 3+ goblin players, 2-3 depths decks. 1 ad nauseam, a spanish inquisition, Dnt, Sneak and Show, a janky legacy UG deck (I don't think the poor guy won a single game) and I think 2 reanimators, Doomsday(this surprised me a lot I thought the deck would be nearly dead with the probe ban), and me on parfait. I think I got decently lucky with my pairings.
though overall pretty diverse meta for the night which suprised me. Sneak went exactly how I hoped it would lmao.
Round 1- DnT
game one- I mulled to 5 and didnt draw into land while they ported and beat me down. nothing special there.
game 2- needle on vial and PtE/oblivion ring when necessary. I was able to turn 5 Rip/helm.
game 3- this is the only game I got the land tax/rack engine going in the whole tournament. kept their board clear as i could. chanted them to time walk them and give myself time to draw into what I needed. they prolonged the game by end stepping my helm with flickerwisp. helm/rip'd them out of the game after a wrath of god to make sure I wouldnt be dying to beat down.
round 2- mono Black reanimator worst game of the tournament.
game 1- he gets an early sire of insanity. I top deck Path and exile it. and we're in topdeck mode. I dont draw anything relevant and he wins the topdeck war.
Game 2- turn 2 sire of insanity. I draw into no removal or anything relevant and die to beat down.
Round 3 UR Sneak and Show
game one- turn one and two I dont have anything playable. He Show and tells omniscience and I show Oblivion Ring targeting omni. My next turn i draw humility and play pithing needle blindly naming sneak attack Since I remember him playing Mono blue Show and tell, and he had mentioned he was borrowing this deck from a friend for tonight so it wasn't the same list as before. Next turn he show and tells again and I show humility. I was able to helm/rip a few turns later.
all i could think to side in was pyroblast for omni and coucil for w/e target.
Game 2- I mull to 6 finding humility and wait for show and tell. He show and tells and plays Emrakul and I place humility. . We end up top decking for a few turns while he hits me with his 1/1 for a few turns until I find charblecher. I play it and over 3 turns I hit him for 3 damage then 2 and on my 3rd charbelcher targeting him I managed to hit 10 cards and the final being mountain for lethal. great because I wasn't able to have land tax hit the field due to spell pierces.
Turns out he has no relevant hate cards for my deck seeing as humility is fringe as hell in legacy. He was also very caught off guard by the charbelcher win condition lol.
Final round Player needed to head out and we agreed to split.
Turns out he was on Ad nauseum Tendrils. I kind of wish we got to play. I wanted to see how the match up would go pre/post sideboard.
Overall I really like the list so far. I'm going to stick with it unless I feel changes are needed. Only problems I ran into was not having lands when I had Moxes in hand or not drawing into relevant cards, but that happens.