In the competitive league I played against infect, eldrazi and taxes, the new jund deck (death's shadow version, actually pretty scary), amulet of vigor, and dredge. In the friendly league it was infect, eldrazi and taxes, kiki chord, affinity, and grixis control.
Obviously the big omission is Liliana, I wanted to play 4 helix to fuel bitterblossom, and since the tokens can chump big things, her -2 wouldn't be as significant. 4 helix also makes this more like an agro deck that can grind rather than a jund-esque deck since I can burn people out from high life totals. Butcher also makes the deck more aggressive, Liliana just isn't at home in this deck.
By cutting Liliana, I can make blood more more of an option because the deck can now operate on just one plains and one swamp. So I swapped out 2 mire for 2 mesa and gave it a shot, it was super good lock out infect, obviously the amulet deck, but it's hilariously good against eldrazi and taxes. This also helps against tron since we don't have to sink mana into multiple fulminators to keep them off of tron. Blood moon is a great dimension to this deck, and we can support it well. I did have to forgo white in 2 games because of it, but it might be correct to cut a blackcleave to get the 3rd mesa.
I also added in abbots as butcher fodder that draws a card, the prowess is also super effective. I think the card is great, it lets us cheat on lands, and it's actually a great beater.
I am playing dreadbore over terminate because karn, ugin, and the walkers in sun and moon are annoying as hell and I want a one-card answer. The only real drawbacks are not being able to hit manlands, stop a hit from a hasty threat, or stop a hit from a creature with cranial plating. I think the flexibility is more important, but I could be wrong.
I am considering cutting bitterblossom. I know I was pretty high on it before, but there are matchups where it just isn't great, I boarded it out against amulet, death's shadow jund, and dredge, just because it's too slow. I also think with the more aggressive angle to my deck, it might be better to look elsewhere. I am considering goblin rabblemaster I did try it out in another version of this and it's a really solid must-kill threat that works well with butcher and puts on a really quick clock (6 damage on it's first attack). The problem is obviously that it dies to bolt, and you have to keep the battlefield clear, whereas it's impossible for a lot of decks in modern to kill bitterblossom, and the tokens fly.
Either way I just want a threat that works with butcher (meaning creates 2 tokens by turn 4 to sac for haste and lifelink).
Butcher has been ridiculous, you guys seriously need to try him out. People will board out of terminates and such if they don't see it game one. The grixis player I beat couldn't kill it, and it just hit him 4 times for the win. It also brings you back from behind because one hit is a 10 point lifeswing. It can also get haste, so it punishes people for tapping out hard.
Nukedz, you are completely right about hide//seek, it's a lot more flexible than wear//tear. You can bring it in against jund because they sometimes play night of soul's betrayal and if they don't play it, you can seek them and make sure they don't have it, then take a pulse or something if they don't. It's also good at protecting blood moon, since most decks don't play a lot of enchantment destruction (if any) you can take away their outs (this came up against amulet).
Butcher was pretty great in the games, he usually only sticks around for a turn or two but his impact is pretty huge, and he obviously closes quickly, while making it real hard to race.
Yea I was thinking about 3 rip I just don't want to lose value on souls, do you bring in 1 or 2 against g/b/x or grixis or do you just bring them in against dredge? Rip seems better for that application than leyline.
I went 4-1 in the first competitive league that I played on mtgo, which really speaks volumes for this archetype, since I just threw this together.
I beat grixis delver, jeskai control, skred red, and jund, and I lost to grixis control (ancestral visions is super hard to get through, but I felt in the game until the end).
I think we are super, super well positioned right now, since we are basically jund but with more lifegain and cheaper removal (so we are better against agro and agro combo decks) and we have more grindy elements (so we win midrange fights), plus we have infinite sideboard options since we are white and black.
Going forward I would change a few things:
1. This deck needs 24 lands, while I only got screwed once, it was close a few other times, and we really want to be able to activate vault of the archangel.
2. soulfire just isn't great, the way that games go you tend to empty your hand earlier than it comes online, if it ever does. It also dies to everything and unlike bob it's not a must-kill threat until turn 5.
3. timely is pretty bad here, you do get 6 life a lot of the time, but you almost never get the creatures, since we play a lot of tokens.
So I cut the timely's for lightning helix in the board, and cut the soulfires and 1 terminate for the 2nd vault and 2 pia and kiran nalaar. I think that pia and kiran will give us more value than soulfire will, it might be right to only run 1 though, it's also great with kolaghan's command.
I am considering playing blood baron of vizkopa. It has pro path, terminate, and dismember, doesn't die to bolt, and it can swing through tasigur. Card seems crazy, but it might be too slow. What do you guys think about it?
You have to play with lotv to really see why she's good. I used to avoid playing her back in the day as well, now I realize that she is one of (if not the) best walker ever printed. Now I just slap 4 into every black deck before anything else. She's super expensive for a reason.
This seems too good. It's at least as good as smuggler's copter, but it might be even better.
Having 4 toughness is pretty huge, dodges harnessed lightning, eats copters, doesn't die to avacyn flip if that ever comes up.
4 power means it kills Gideon in one swing and trades with avacyn.
All in all this seems like a great tool for u/w and against u/w.
I'm just getting into this deck, and I've seen a lot of lists running noble hierarch eschewing bob in the process. I don't understand why, we can top out at three mana (bob seems way better than tasigur and murderous cut), and the ramp from hierarch isn't super relevant for us, unless I'm missing something.
Why don't you guys like gatekeeper of malakir? He is a 2 for 1 and provides 2 devotion all for only 3 mana. He seems like one of the reasons to play the deck, at least he has been great in my experience. What am I missing?
I think your analysis is spot on, go with TKS. Consistent, and only increases in value as the game goes on.
Another card for consideration is harsh scrutiny.
The only thing about tks is his weakness to spell queller, which is kind of a big deal in that match so I'm not sure I really want him to be correct though.
I did consider scrutiny but it doesn't get their actual counters.
I'm playing a 5 color panharmonicon deck, and I want a discard spell.
Playing against uw flash is super difficult without knowing what is in their hand, they seem to have exact answer every time. I could also use a discard spell against delirium for emrakul, but this is more for uw flash.
So i think there are 3 options transgress the mind, thought-knot seer, and distended mind bender. Now thought-knot is the obvious choice because I'm running panharmonicon, but it gets Blownout by spell queller it is really good against delirium though. Mindbender has the highest ceiling but I can see it getting countered and only getting a selfless spirit or something out of it plus it's probably going to cost around 4 so it will be hard to double spell. Transgress seems like the safe choice, but it's not super impactful. What do you guys think?
I took my list to a PPTQ and just was miserable playing this. Zombies absolutely demolishes this deck and we have almost no answers to anything they do. Delirium is also a terrible matchup. It's pretty frustrating to try to get this to work currently. If I didn't despise deckbuilding with a passion, I'd like to try out some other standard decks. As is, I'm only having success with this in non-competitive events. The meta is just so fast right now to the point I may have to take a break from standard for a bit.
As far as feedback on the deck, I honestly am getting to the point where I really don't like Copter. I know it's the best card in Standard currently so I'm a maniac to say this but I just don't think it works in this deck that well. Turn 2 plays are so powerful in so many decks that us tapping out for it (especially on the draw) just sets us so far back. The one match I won was a U/W mirror where I sb them out for games 2 and 3. Maybe it's just my list but I really am leaning towards moving Copter to the sb and only bringing in when on the play in specific matchups.
zombies is 100% our worst matchup because of voldaren pariah, I think we can race them if they don't have it though. What I've been doing is cutting quellers (because there's almost nothing to counter) for 3 declaration in stone and the 3rd unsubstantiate. this way I have the rebuffs and unsubstantiate to answer the pariah, this has worked twice now. I personally think the delirium matchup is more 50/50 and if we get ahead by just alittle it swings heavily in our favor.
It can get awkward trying to play the copter on the draw. Brad nelson wrote an article about a week or so ago, where he said that against g/r agro on the draw he cut his copters in his g/w deck, so you're not the first to think like this. I think that it's too strong to cut, but I can see shaving numbers. It still blocks well, and obviously the looting is rediculous.
I ran my list in a pptq today and went 3-2.
I beat 2 jeskai control decks, and a really bad b/w midrange deck. I lost to a jeskai control deck due to dynavolt tower, I should have won game one but drew 3 lands in a row (it happens :/ ) and didn't see the towers game 1 so I didn't bring in fragmentize. Then I lost to a br agro deck that was really heavy with burn (it played collective defiance, collective brutality, and alms of the vein) I usually board out quellers for reflector mages in these kind of matchups on the draw, but I only saw inventor's apprentice, bomat courier, and pia nalaar, and since he was heavy in burn I figured queller would be better on the draw than the usual reflector mage plan, big mistake, he beat me with creatures. I also brought in fragmentize for his copters, turns out he boarded out all of his vehicles expecting me to bring in fragmentize, so I died with a fragmentize in hand after taking about 4 hits from a bomat courier waiting for a better target, along with 2 quellers.
So I lost 2 matches due to boarding mistakes.
I never played against the stock u/w list, gb delirium, or vehicles, which is what I was expecting to face. Oh well.
I did swap out a sideboarded declaration for the 3rd unsubstantiate, as a way to deal with copters and other vehicles in the mardu matchup, not sure if it's right or not. But I wouldn't change anything about the deck, just didn't have the right read on my opponent's decks.
Summary Dismissal as a 1 of but I want to go to 2. Fragmentize has been a 2 of but I believe I'm dropping it to 1. Ceremonious Rejection is great at 3. Negate at 1 since I have 1 main. Dispel I don't like this card, but I'm going to test with it some more at 1. Blessed Alliance was disappointing at 3 so I'm moving it to 2. Fumigate is either a 1 or 2.
Always watching is definitely a main board or not at all card, I think it's a really important card for the deck right now. Authority just hasn't been as good as I wish it would be it always seems good in theory but in practice you always draw it on turn 5 and hate life.
What are your plans with the other cards and can you post your current list for context?
I was thinking about 2 fumigate as well but I don't think it does enough against vehicle decks so it would just be for rg agro which isn't bad, but I want something for vehicles personally.
Delirium isnt too bad of a match up if played right. I'm 4-3 against it currently. Play yuuki ichikawas list. Take out inspectors, selfless spirit, rattlechains. Bring in all but fragmentize and counters. Most people think counters are good against them but I'd argue against it since hand disruption can leave me being a reactive deck rather than proactive. Kill ishkanah, grind through the tokens. Hope they don't get emrakul
I completely disagree with this approach. This deck is all about countering their plays, why kill an ishkanah and grind through the tokens, when you can just counter it? There aren't many cards that they play that we care about, it's removal spells, ishkanah, and Liliana, emrakul is obviously hard to beat, but they should be dead before they can get to it. It's all about correctly evaluating their cards. I think the "stock" u/w decks have a harder time at it than the more counter heavy tribal version though.
So I have tried to put 3 Revolutionary Rebuff maindeck, cutting 3 Unsubstantiate. Though it performed well countering haymakers like Avacyn, PW etc, I was buried by unanswered copter due to the fact that we dont have many answers to it once resolved.
Well, I still agree to maindeck 3 R.Rebuff, but we need to mix at least 2 or 3 early game interaction to a resolved copter or early threats, something like Immolating Glare/Blessed Alliance.
I totally agree. After theory crafting I realized that unsubstantiate is actually alittle bit better than reflector mage in the main because it can bounce a copter and, if they don't get a copter, it can delay their bomb. I think I just approached the card wrong. Right now I'm trying to figure out if the 3rd essence flux is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate, I think it probably is but I'm willing to be wrong. I do think that the 4th rebuff is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate though, it just permanently answers cards we have problems with. It is definitely worse than unsubstantiate against mardu vehicles though, but I expect that we will see stock uw and gb delirium more often than vehicles.
I just 4-1ed a league with this list (punted to g/r energy, had the win in hand), and I'm pretty sure I'm taking it to a pptq on Saturday:
I think I might need to swap out a plains for an island, I generally want as much blue as possible, but only need 2 white. I did get color screwed once or twice today.
Always watching is so freakin good right now, going wanderer, copter, queller, always watching with flux backup is really hard to beat. I was thinking about the 4th always watching but it's probably too much.
I haven't gotten a lot of chances to play against vehicles, so I'm not sure if my board plan is correct or not. In the games I have played against them I find that I'm not really playing much of a flash game, so I cut quellers and (obviously) rebuff, and i'm shaving 1 essence flux, for 3 fragmentize, 2 rejection and 4 reflector mage. I don't really like declaration in stone here, since it's really the vehicles that give you problems (thus the 3 fragmentize, where I'd only bring in 2 in other matches that call for it).
Hi Guys, in your pinion, how is positioned grixis control/jeskai control against this deck?
I think they have a favorable matchup event post side maybe...
I've never had problems against them. My version runs 8 counterspells in the main, plus 4 more if you count rattlechains, selfless spirit and essence flux also sort of count.
Congrats @immapwner on having a success on the tribal version of this deck. I'm not really solve on Revolutionary Rebuff, since every deck has copter and Vehicle decks are here to stay. I see your point in countering spells that totally wreck our deck (Avacyn, Ishkana, Lily, etc.), but all of those could be countered by Unsubstantiate. It is basically a timewalk, so that we can untap and get in for flyer damage.
Ongoing Investigation could be replaced by 2 Negates, so have additional answers to Copter, Gideon, Snares, etc...Gisela is not what you want on a R/x fast aggro decks, she will just eat Harness Lightning, Unlicensed Disentegration. Maybe 4th Blessed alliance and 1 Immolating Glare if your meta is super aggro like R/x or B/R vampires.
Also, you can cut 2 Ceremonious Rejection, for 2 Spell Shrivel. If you are worried about Marvel/Colussus Decks, I think 2 Rejection, 2 Shrivel, 2 Fragmentize and 2 Negates will do the job.
I might give the Revolutionary Rebuff a whirl, and see how it performs on the rest of the field.
I think rebuff is better than unsubstantiate, with unsub they can just cast the spell next turn, so you better hope you can kill them before they recast an ishkanah. I also don't think the bounce is especially useful, since we don't have a huge problem at dealing with creatures, I do like the idea of bouncing a copter though. Against the artifact decks you of course board out the rebuffs for rejection, I haven't quite figured out the best plan against agro, but it probably involves some sort of mix.
I was considering 2 negate in the main. It sounds good but then again since I'm playing 4 rattlechains and 3 essence flux (and to a lesser extent 4 selfless) I can beat spot removal. But it would be nice to have a turn 2 answer to copter in the main.
I was thinking that selfless spirit and essence flux would be enough to protect Gisela, it might not be though. I was wanting something that puts pressure on them, while padding our life, so a lifelinking creature is what I was thinking. Maybe it needs to be responder since it's cheaper, but Gisela has a huge upside if it sticks. I think I'd rather play authority of the consuls before more removal spells, since it buffs our life total and slows then down a ton, since, if they don't have a one drop, they can't crew a copter until turn 4 (assuming you don't have a reflector mage).
Ceremonious rejection is only for the marvel/colossus decks though, I don't really need more counters against other decks, so why not play the best one against the artifact decks?
2 arid mesa
4 marsh flats
2 bloodstained mire
4 blackcleave cliffs
1 blood crypt
1 godless shrine
1 sacred foundry
3 shambling vent
1 vault of the archangel
1 plains
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 grim lavamancer
4 dark confidant
3 abbot of keral keep
3 butcher of the horde
enchantments: 3
3 bitterblossom
spells: 24
4 path to exile
4 lightning bolt
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 lightning helix
1 dreadbore
4 lingering souls
1 kolaghan's command
3 rest in peace
3 stony silence
1 zealous persecution
1 timely reinforcements
2 anger of the gods
3 blood moon
2 hide//seek
In the competitive league I played against infect, eldrazi and taxes, the new jund deck (death's shadow version, actually pretty scary), amulet of vigor, and dredge. In the friendly league it was infect, eldrazi and taxes, kiki chord, affinity, and grixis control.
Obviously the big omission is Liliana, I wanted to play 4 helix to fuel bitterblossom, and since the tokens can chump big things, her -2 wouldn't be as significant. 4 helix also makes this more like an agro deck that can grind rather than a jund-esque deck since I can burn people out from high life totals. Butcher also makes the deck more aggressive, Liliana just isn't at home in this deck.
By cutting Liliana, I can make blood more more of an option because the deck can now operate on just one plains and one swamp. So I swapped out 2 mire for 2 mesa and gave it a shot, it was super good lock out infect, obviously the amulet deck, but it's hilariously good against eldrazi and taxes. This also helps against tron since we don't have to sink mana into multiple fulminators to keep them off of tron. Blood moon is a great dimension to this deck, and we can support it well. I did have to forgo white in 2 games because of it, but it might be correct to cut a blackcleave to get the 3rd mesa.
I also added in abbots as butcher fodder that draws a card, the prowess is also super effective. I think the card is great, it lets us cheat on lands, and it's actually a great beater.
I am playing dreadbore over terminate because karn, ugin, and the walkers in sun and moon are annoying as hell and I want a one-card answer. The only real drawbacks are not being able to hit manlands, stop a hit from a hasty threat, or stop a hit from a creature with cranial plating. I think the flexibility is more important, but I could be wrong.
I am considering cutting bitterblossom. I know I was pretty high on it before, but there are matchups where it just isn't great, I boarded it out against amulet, death's shadow jund, and dredge, just because it's too slow. I also think with the more aggressive angle to my deck, it might be better to look elsewhere. I am considering goblin rabblemaster I did try it out in another version of this and it's a really solid must-kill threat that works well with butcher and puts on a really quick clock (6 damage on it's first attack). The problem is obviously that it dies to bolt, and you have to keep the battlefield clear, whereas it's impossible for a lot of decks in modern to kill bitterblossom, and the tokens fly.
Either way I just want a threat that works with butcher (meaning creates 2 tokens by turn 4 to sac for haste and lifelink).
Butcher has been ridiculous, you guys seriously need to try him out. People will board out of terminates and such if they don't see it game one. The grixis player I beat couldn't kill it, and it just hit him 4 times for the win. It also brings you back from behind because one hit is a 10 point lifeswing. It can also get haste, so it punishes people for tapping out hard.
Nukedz, you are completely right about hide//seek, it's a lot more flexible than wear//tear. You can bring it in against jund because they sometimes play night of soul's betrayal and if they don't play it, you can seek them and make sure they don't have it, then take a pulse or something if they don't. It's also good at protecting blood moon, since most decks don't play a lot of enchantment destruction (if any) you can take away their outs (this came up against amulet).
Anyway, what do you guys think?
Yea I was thinking about 3 rip I just don't want to lose value on souls, do you bring in 1 or 2 against g/b/x or grixis or do you just bring them in against dredge? Rip seems better for that application than leyline.
Isn't hide//seek just worse than wear//tear?
4 marsh flats
4 bloodstained mire
1 sacred foundry
1 blood crypt
1 goddess shrine
4 blackcleave cliffs
3 shambling vent
2 swamp
1 mountain
1 plains
1 vault of the archangel
1 grim lavamancer
4 dark confidant
2 soulfire grand master
2 butcher of the horde
walkers: 4
4 Liliana of the veil
enchantments: 2
2 bitterblossom
spells: 22
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
2 terminate
4 lingering souls
2 kolaghan's command
2 stony silence
2 timely reinforcement
2 anguished unmaking
4 fulminator mage
4 leyline of the void
1 engineered explosives
I went 4-1 in the first competitive league that I played on mtgo, which really speaks volumes for this archetype, since I just threw this together.
I beat grixis delver, jeskai control, skred red, and jund, and I lost to grixis control (ancestral visions is super hard to get through, but I felt in the game until the end).
I think we are super, super well positioned right now, since we are basically jund but with more lifegain and cheaper removal (so we are better against agro and agro combo decks) and we have more grindy elements (so we win midrange fights), plus we have infinite sideboard options since we are white and black.
Going forward I would change a few things:
1. This deck needs 24 lands, while I only got screwed once, it was close a few other times, and we really want to be able to activate vault of the archangel.
2. soulfire just isn't great, the way that games go you tend to empty your hand earlier than it comes online, if it ever does. It also dies to everything and unlike bob it's not a must-kill threat until turn 5.
3. timely is pretty bad here, you do get 6 life a lot of the time, but you almost never get the creatures, since we play a lot of tokens.
So I cut the timely's for lightning helix in the board, and cut the soulfires and 1 terminate for the 2nd vault and 2 pia and kiran nalaar. I think that pia and kiran will give us more value than soulfire will, it might be right to only run 1 though, it's also great with kolaghan's command.
I am considering playing blood baron of vizkopa. It has pro path, terminate, and dismember, doesn't die to bolt, and it can swing through tasigur. Card seems crazy, but it might be too slow. What do you guys think about it?
Having 4 toughness is pretty huge, dodges harnessed lightning, eats copters, doesn't die to avacyn flip if that ever comes up.
4 power means it kills Gideon in one swing and trades with avacyn.
All in all this seems like a great tool for u/w and against u/w.
The only thing about tks is his weakness to spell queller, which is kind of a big deal in that match so I'm not sure I really want him to be correct though.
I did consider scrutiny but it doesn't get their actual counters.
Playing against uw flash is super difficult without knowing what is in their hand, they seem to have exact answer every time. I could also use a discard spell against delirium for emrakul, but this is more for uw flash.
So i think there are 3 options transgress the mind, thought-knot seer, and distended mind bender. Now thought-knot is the obvious choice because I'm running panharmonicon, but it gets Blownout by spell queller it is really good against delirium though. Mindbender has the highest ceiling but I can see it getting countered and only getting a selfless spirit or something out of it plus it's probably going to cost around 4 so it will be hard to double spell. Transgress seems like the safe choice, but it's not super impactful. What do you guys think?
zombies is 100% our worst matchup because of voldaren pariah, I think we can race them if they don't have it though. What I've been doing is cutting quellers (because there's almost nothing to counter) for 3 declaration in stone and the 3rd unsubstantiate. this way I have the rebuffs and unsubstantiate to answer the pariah, this has worked twice now. I personally think the delirium matchup is more 50/50 and if we get ahead by just alittle it swings heavily in our favor.
It can get awkward trying to play the copter on the draw. Brad nelson wrote an article about a week or so ago, where he said that against g/r agro on the draw he cut his copters in his g/w deck, so you're not the first to think like this. I think that it's too strong to cut, but I can see shaving numbers. It still blocks well, and obviously the looting is rediculous.
I beat 2 jeskai control decks, and a really bad b/w midrange deck. I lost to a jeskai control deck due to dynavolt tower, I should have won game one but drew 3 lands in a row (it happens :/ ) and didn't see the towers game 1 so I didn't bring in fragmentize. Then I lost to a br agro deck that was really heavy with burn (it played collective defiance, collective brutality, and alms of the vein) I usually board out quellers for reflector mages in these kind of matchups on the draw, but I only saw inventor's apprentice, bomat courier, and pia nalaar, and since he was heavy in burn I figured queller would be better on the draw than the usual reflector mage plan, big mistake, he beat me with creatures. I also brought in fragmentize for his copters, turns out he boarded out all of his vehicles expecting me to bring in fragmentize, so I died with a fragmentize in hand after taking about 4 hits from a bomat courier waiting for a better target, along with 2 quellers.
So I lost 2 matches due to boarding mistakes.
I never played against the stock u/w list, gb delirium, or vehicles, which is what I was expecting to face. Oh well.
I did swap out a sideboarded declaration for the 3rd unsubstantiate, as a way to deal with copters and other vehicles in the mardu matchup, not sure if it's right or not. But I wouldn't change anything about the deck, just didn't have the right read on my opponent's decks.
Always watching is definitely a main board or not at all card, I think it's a really important card for the deck right now. Authority just hasn't been as good as I wish it would be it always seems good in theory but in practice you always draw it on turn 5 and hate life.
What are your plans with the other cards and can you post your current list for context?
I was thinking about 2 fumigate as well but I don't think it does enough against vehicle decks so it would just be for rg agro which isn't bad, but I want something for vehicles personally.
I completely disagree with this approach. This deck is all about countering their plays, why kill an ishkanah and grind through the tokens, when you can just counter it? There aren't many cards that they play that we care about, it's removal spells, ishkanah, and Liliana, emrakul is obviously hard to beat, but they should be dead before they can get to it. It's all about correctly evaluating their cards. I think the "stock" u/w decks have a harder time at it than the more counter heavy tribal version though.
I totally agree. After theory crafting I realized that unsubstantiate is actually alittle bit better than reflector mage in the main because it can bounce a copter and, if they don't get a copter, it can delay their bomb. I think I just approached the card wrong. Right now I'm trying to figure out if the 3rd essence flux is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate, I think it probably is but I'm willing to be wrong. I do think that the 4th rebuff is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate though, it just permanently answers cards we have problems with. It is definitely worse than unsubstantiate against mardu vehicles though, but I expect that we will see stock uw and gb delirium more often than vehicles.
I just 4-1ed a league with this list (punted to g/r energy, had the win in hand), and I'm pretty sure I'm taking it to a pptq on Saturday:
8 island
8 plains
4 port town
4 prairie stream
Creatures: 20
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 selfless spirit
4 rattlechains
4 spell queller
4 nebelghast herald
3 essence flux
4 smuggler's copter
4 revolutionary rebuff
2 unsubstantiate
3 always watching
Board: 15
3 fragmentize
2 ceremonious rejection
4 declaration in stone
2 negate
4 reflector mage
I think I might need to swap out a plains for an island, I generally want as much blue as possible, but only need 2 white. I did get color screwed once or twice today.
Always watching is so freakin good right now, going wanderer, copter, queller, always watching with flux backup is really hard to beat. I was thinking about the 4th always watching but it's probably too much.
I haven't gotten a lot of chances to play against vehicles, so I'm not sure if my board plan is correct or not. In the games I have played against them I find that I'm not really playing much of a flash game, so I cut quellers and (obviously) rebuff, and i'm shaving 1 essence flux, for 3 fragmentize, 2 rejection and 4 reflector mage. I don't really like declaration in stone here, since it's really the vehicles that give you problems (thus the 3 fragmentize, where I'd only bring in 2 in other matches that call for it).
What do you guys think about that matchup?
I've never had problems against them. My version runs 8 counterspells in the main, plus 4 more if you count rattlechains, selfless spirit and essence flux also sort of count.
I think rebuff is better than unsubstantiate, with unsub they can just cast the spell next turn, so you better hope you can kill them before they recast an ishkanah. I also don't think the bounce is especially useful, since we don't have a huge problem at dealing with creatures, I do like the idea of bouncing a copter though. Against the artifact decks you of course board out the rebuffs for rejection, I haven't quite figured out the best plan against agro, but it probably involves some sort of mix.
I was considering 2 negate in the main. It sounds good but then again since I'm playing 4 rattlechains and 3 essence flux (and to a lesser extent 4 selfless) I can beat spot removal. But it would be nice to have a turn 2 answer to copter in the main.
I was thinking that selfless spirit and essence flux would be enough to protect Gisela, it might not be though. I was wanting something that puts pressure on them, while padding our life, so a lifelinking creature is what I was thinking. Maybe it needs to be responder since it's cheaper, but Gisela has a huge upside if it sticks. I think I'd rather play authority of the consuls before more removal spells, since it buffs our life total and slows then down a ton, since, if they don't have a one drop, they can't crew a copter until turn 4 (assuming you don't have a reflector mage).
Ceremonious rejection is only for the marvel/colossus decks though, I don't really need more counters against other decks, so why not play the best one against the artifact decks?