Hey guys I was wondering what your opinion was on history of benalia in this deck? It would be another way to two for one the opponent, and it would pump your mutavaults. It might mean too many three drops though. It's just tearing up standard, and usually cards that are format defining in standard are at least playable in modern. Has anyone given it a shot?
I was also kind of interested in knight of malice and knight of grace. Malice in particular seems really good against humans and uwx control, while grace would be good against the decks leaning on push and trophy. First strike on a 3/2 is no joke and they could block a large portion of the meta. Anybody tried these guys yet, and what are your thoughts?
I was wondering what people's thoughts are on Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants in this deck? It's - ability gets back our threats similar to the last hope, and its plus one can pump up lingering souls, which conveniently makes two tokens at a time. I feel like ajani would be better in more board positions than the last hope because lili doesnt do anything when you have nothing in the yard and the opponent has no creatures out, while ajani at least permanently pumps our guys. Both lili and ajani have game-ending ults that take the same amount of pluses to reach as well.
They should have reprinted a common or uncommon from dgm rather than a rare or mythic. Far//Away, wear//tear, or warleaders helix would have been fine even if they would be unexciting.
Lol at chalice being a freakin mythic. It's not like mana drain in that its expensive because of low supply, its expensive because it sees a lot of play, it should have been rare to increase supply, and give a better spread of value (a 60-70 card every case as opposed to a 30-40 card every 2 boxes).
I went to 23 lands, and it's been working out for me.
I think with the ramp decks (they play cast out, sandwurm convergence, binding, etc...) and mardu vehicles on the rise, we want more brontodons. It'd be cool to get 4 in here but I'm not sure how.
Chandra is another form of ca against the UB scarab god and control decks. I'm not sure if it should be carnage tyrant though since it can't kill scarab god in a pinch, but the w/x decks are playing like 6 wraths.
Speaking of carnage tyrant, I'm playing bontu's last reckoning for he monsters and gb snek just to have an out against it. The ramp decks look like they are playing 2 in their boards now too, so we probably need it there too. We could maybe use vona's hunger instead of reckoning, but reckoning just cleanly answers tyrant so I'm not sure. We could use dire fleet poisoner, but they could just kill it, so that's not sure appealing. Are there any other answers I'm not thinking of?
I'm thinking about including Scraphead Scrounger, however I feel like we have tons of 4 drops, which means activating its ability may be taxing. It also makes us exile a creature, which I would prefer to do with Deathgorge Scavenger. Life gain is so important in the grindy matches.
I also really like the explore build, as it lets you filter through cards. I'm running this currently.
People definitely killed the initiates early if they could, but I also got a few turn 3 Phoenix, and you can do things like put all of the counters on a Phoenix or 1/2 squire/ 2/1 ranger late game. So your not just drawing a dead card. X/4 is also a big game right now.
I didn't draw bloodfast much this time around, I drew treasure map a bunch though lol.
I think ruin raider will kill you more often than not. You can control when it triggers, but I'm sure you will get hit for 3-5 consistently. I'd rather have bloodfast because it's consistently 2 and you can have a turn where you use it 3-4 times instead of just doing it once, and on your end step. Raider also wants you to attack and we can't race aggro decks, we're just too slow. So I think he's sideboard material at best. Same with scrounger. I'm more interested in dread wanderer as a recursive threat because he can block (and it's a one drop).
Why are your cuts in the board? Surely they are better than the moment of cravings? I've won plenty of games because of ribbons.
I beat UG merfolk, sultai midrange (snek, scarab god, hadana's climb), mono black gateway (basically a bye), and mono red.
I lost to a UB midrange deck because I flooded hard game 1 and game 3 I couldn't answer their second scarab god.
25 lands seems like a lot, but it worked. I even had games where I didn't hit my 4th land drop on time. Overall it felt really smooth, and I didn't feel flooded outside of game 1 against the UB deck. With jadelight and squire, I think we can afford to play 25, and we have good mana sinks in bloodfast and ribbons.
I tried treasure map over a bloodfast, and it really sucks compared to bloodfast. Early on we have cheap creatures to either set us up or ramp us, along with cheap removal, so we don't need an early way to scry (or have a window to cast it early) and you would much rather be playing a bloodfast turn 4+.
Rhonas was also very lackluster. I played him 3 times I think, attacked with him once, and never had the chance to use his ability.
Magma spray was a house, its miles ahead of fatal push right now since the graveyard is so important. There are lots of eternalize creatures and good scarab god targets running around as well as a descent amount of cheap aggro creatures. It almost always had a target even against the midrange decks. It should be a 3 of main and maybe even have the 4th in the board.
Seeker's squire is definitely the right choice over branchwalker the 3 toughness holds back much of the field.
The ramp from channeler initiate was really important and the mana fixing was instrumental in at least one win. It coming down as an 0/1 kinda blows though, you can put the counters on a Phoenix late-game though. It still feels like there should be a better option, but the ramp and fixing was really powerful.
I never got to use the brontodon's ability, but having a 3/4 against mono red was pretty awesome, as was having the ability to kill an enchantment even though it didn't come up (hadana's climb is really good with snek).
I brought in angrath in every matchup except mono red. I'm really liking him, it might be worth it to try to fit it in the main, but it would make our curve pretty top heavy, it's probably better in the board.
So the changes for next time:
In the main
-1 abrade, -1 rhonas, -1 treasure map
+1 magma spray, +1 deathgorge scavenger, +1 arguels bloodfast
In the board
-1 magma spray, -1 deathgorge scavenger, -1 arguels bloodfast
+1 abrade, +1 thrashing brontodon, +1 angrath the flame chained
As for ravenous chupacabra, I think it's probably ok to play one over a contempt. But exile is super important right now, so I wouldn't do it, unless your plan is to board into lilianas for midrange and control matchups, even then though, you need answers to the scarab god.
I have been thinking about Rhonas and the scrounger. The former not really great in the deck, The latter fits exactly in what we try to do.
I'm just not into Heart of Kiran for it does not meet the requirements of a value card. It IS a great magic card though. But I don't think there are any slots/spells i'd want to give up.
I'm afraid my phoenixes wont be here in time for the next FNM had a delay in my presale shipent for some reason. I really want to take the list to an event soon!
Anybody been working on a way to consistently incorporate both double black and green alongside red? I really don't want more taplands but I'd love to play more green.
Why don't you like rhonas in here? I haven't gotten to test him yet, but it seems like he fills a small hole we have. With giving our creatures trample, letting our smaller guys attack in the event of a board stall, an letting our fliers threaten to trade with a 6/6 angel of invention. As well as being another mana sink.
It's totally possible that he's bad, but I just want to know why you don't like him.
I don't like scrounger, I think we need creatures that can block, because we can't race aggro decks. Scrounger can block in those decks because of heart of kiran. We are sacrificing aggressive starts for mid/late game power. He could be a descent sideboard option but I'm not high on him in here.
The next manabase I'm trying is:
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 root-bound crag
4 sheltered thicket
4 canyon slough
2 forest
2 swamp
Along with 4 initiates. This might be too many tapped lands though. You could maybe play 1 evolving wilds and a mountain ( or maybe 2 mountains) over a thicket and a slough.
What about Channeler Initiate as a two drop that can help fix mana, ramp into the four drops and be a big butt if it becomes a 3/4?
I like Seekers' Squire over merfolk branchwalker as the extra toughness helps in blocking. Deathgore can eat up turns against creature decks, and blockers helps fuel it. When Arguel's Blood Fast flips you can start sacking a rekindling Phoenix to gain life and just bring it back your turn after you attacked or blocked with it. It's a game-saver, especially if you have multiple Phoenix's. Arguel's really can help in the long game, which this deck has an advantage in.
100% agree with all of this I'm working on a version that cuts the branchwalkers for initiates. I'm also testing out rhonas, the problem with deathgorge is that he just trades with a random creature on the opponents board so you can't press an advantage with him, but rhonas could fix that. Making your Phoenix a massive trampler that is hard to kill is just upside haha.
I hadn't thought about serpopard but I'm going to look into fitting it in.
I beat grixis energy, gb snek, esper approach, and grixis improvise. I lost to esper gpg (which feels like a really hard matchup).
I'll be the first to admit that the manabase isn't correct, it was hard to get double red sometimes, I'm cuting an evolving wilds and forest for the 4th crag, another slough, another thicket making it 24 lands instead of 23, I think this will fix it.
The idea was have a lot of explore to fix draws and just jam Phoenix and glorybringers till they die. And that worked really well. Arguels bloodfast is insane as well, if aggro wasn't a thing I'd maindeck 3 and I'm thinking about playing the third in the board. Even the flipped side is great because you can sac your Phoenix in response to exile removal, card is nuts. I had games where I was 15+ cards deeper than my opponent.
Going forward I'm moving the wildgrowth walkers to the board (they were unimpactful but i still think they will be good against aggro). I want 4 deathgorge in the main. Explore fuels deathgorge and deathgorge fuels bloodfast. There is a lot of power here this might not be the optimal build, but there is a tier one deck here somewhere. My matchups that I won felt really easy.
Pretty sure skymarcher will be a 4-of in the vampire deck. I'd say that swift warden is playable, but there have been cards similar to this that didn't see play in the past Voidgrafter. Pirate's prize costs 4, straight draws you 2, and creates a treasure token, and doesn't see play so neither will Pirate's pillage. Atzocan seer is just too slow imo.
1bw
Instant
Exile target non-land permanent.
Honestly, we should have had this instead of anguished unmaking.
I'd love to get:
Bw
Sorcery
Target opponent exiles two cards from their hand.
Not specifically for this deck, but I think we need something like this to beat up on the combo decks. Might be too good for standard though.
I was also kind of interested in knight of malice and knight of grace. Malice in particular seems really good against humans and uwx control, while grace would be good against the decks leaning on push and trophy. First strike on a 3/2 is no joke and they could block a large portion of the meta. Anybody tried these guys yet, and what are your thoughts?
I've been playing a bunch of leagues (7 or 8 I think) going 3/2 or 4/1, never had a losing record, but can't get that elusive 5-0.
Anyway, this is where I'm currently at.
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 rootbound crag
3 sheltered thicket
3 canyon slough
2 swamp
2 forest
1 mountain
Creatures 24
4 merfolk branchwalker
4 seekers squire
3 deathgorge scavenger
1 thrashing brontodon
4 jadelight ranger
4 rekindling Phoenix
4 glorybringer
3 magma spray
3 abrade
2 arguels blood fast
3 vraska's contempt
2 cut//ribbons
15
3 duress
1 magma spray
1 abrade
1 arguels blood fast
2 sweltering suns
1 bontu's last reckoning
2 thrashing brontodon
2 Chandra torch of defiance
2 angrath the flame chained
I went to 23 lands, and it's been working out for me.
I think with the ramp decks (they play cast out, sandwurm convergence, binding, etc...) and mardu vehicles on the rise, we want more brontodons. It'd be cool to get 4 in here but I'm not sure how.
Chandra is another form of ca against the UB scarab god and control decks. I'm not sure if it should be carnage tyrant though since it can't kill scarab god in a pinch, but the w/x decks are playing like 6 wraths.
Speaking of carnage tyrant, I'm playing bontu's last reckoning for he monsters and gb snek just to have an out against it. The ramp decks look like they are playing 2 in their boards now too, so we probably need it there too. We could maybe use vona's hunger instead of reckoning, but reckoning just cleanly answers tyrant so I'm not sure. We could use dire fleet poisoner, but they could just kill it, so that's not sure appealing. Are there any other answers I'm not thinking of?
Is anyone still playing this?
People definitely killed the initiates early if they could, but I also got a few turn 3 Phoenix, and you can do things like put all of the counters on a Phoenix or 1/2 squire/ 2/1 ranger late game. So your not just drawing a dead card. X/4 is also a big game right now.
I didn't draw bloodfast much this time around, I drew treasure map a bunch though lol.
I think ruin raider will kill you more often than not. You can control when it triggers, but I'm sure you will get hit for 3-5 consistently. I'd rather have bloodfast because it's consistently 2 and you can have a turn where you use it 3-4 times instead of just doing it once, and on your end step. Raider also wants you to attack and we can't race aggro decks, we're just too slow. So I think he's sideboard material at best. Same with scrounger. I'm more interested in dread wanderer as a recursive threat because he can block (and it's a one drop).
Why are your cuts in the board? Surely they are better than the moment of cravings? I've won plenty of games because of ribbons.
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 rootbound crag
4 sheltered thicket
3 canyon slough
2 mountain
2 swamp
2 forest
Creatures 23
4 channeler initiate
4 seeker's squire
4 jadelight ranger
2 deathgorge scavenger
1 rhonas the indomitable
4 rekindling Phoenix
4 glorybringer
2 magma spray
3 abrade
1 arguels bloodfast
1 treasure map
3 vraska's contempt
2 cut to ribbons
3 duress
1 magma spray
1 arguels bloodfast
1 abrade
2 lost legacy
3 sweltering suns
1 deathgorge scavenger
1 prowling serpopard
1 thrashing brontodon
1 angrath, the flame chained
I beat UG merfolk, sultai midrange (snek, scarab god, hadana's climb), mono black gateway (basically a bye), and mono red.
I lost to a UB midrange deck because I flooded hard game 1 and game 3 I couldn't answer their second scarab god.
25 lands seems like a lot, but it worked. I even had games where I didn't hit my 4th land drop on time. Overall it felt really smooth, and I didn't feel flooded outside of game 1 against the UB deck. With jadelight and squire, I think we can afford to play 25, and we have good mana sinks in bloodfast and ribbons.
I tried treasure map over a bloodfast, and it really sucks compared to bloodfast. Early on we have cheap creatures to either set us up or ramp us, along with cheap removal, so we don't need an early way to scry (or have a window to cast it early) and you would much rather be playing a bloodfast turn 4+.
Rhonas was also very lackluster. I played him 3 times I think, attacked with him once, and never had the chance to use his ability.
Magma spray was a house, its miles ahead of fatal push right now since the graveyard is so important. There are lots of eternalize creatures and good scarab god targets running around as well as a descent amount of cheap aggro creatures. It almost always had a target even against the midrange decks. It should be a 3 of main and maybe even have the 4th in the board.
Seeker's squire is definitely the right choice over branchwalker the 3 toughness holds back much of the field.
The ramp from channeler initiate was really important and the mana fixing was instrumental in at least one win. It coming down as an 0/1 kinda blows though, you can put the counters on a Phoenix late-game though. It still feels like there should be a better option, but the ramp and fixing was really powerful.
I never got to use the brontodon's ability, but having a 3/4 against mono red was pretty awesome, as was having the ability to kill an enchantment even though it didn't come up (hadana's climb is really good with snek).
I brought in angrath in every matchup except mono red. I'm really liking him, it might be worth it to try to fit it in the main, but it would make our curve pretty top heavy, it's probably better in the board.
So the changes for next time:
In the main
-1 abrade, -1 rhonas, -1 treasure map
+1 magma spray, +1 deathgorge scavenger, +1 arguels bloodfast
In the board
-1 magma spray, -1 deathgorge scavenger, -1 arguels bloodfast
+1 abrade, +1 thrashing brontodon, +1 angrath the flame chained
As for ravenous chupacabra, I think it's probably ok to play one over a contempt. But exile is super important right now, so I wouldn't do it, unless your plan is to board into lilianas for midrange and control matchups, even then though, you need answers to the scarab god.
Why don't you like rhonas in here? I haven't gotten to test him yet, but it seems like he fills a small hole we have. With giving our creatures trample, letting our smaller guys attack in the event of a board stall, an letting our fliers threaten to trade with a 6/6 angel of invention. As well as being another mana sink.
It's totally possible that he's bad, but I just want to know why you don't like him.
I don't like scrounger, I think we need creatures that can block, because we can't race aggro decks. Scrounger can block in those decks because of heart of kiran. We are sacrificing aggressive starts for mid/late game power. He could be a descent sideboard option but I'm not high on him in here.
The next manabase I'm trying is:
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 root-bound crag
4 sheltered thicket
4 canyon slough
2 forest
2 swamp
Along with 4 initiates. This might be too many tapped lands though. You could maybe play 1 evolving wilds and a mountain ( or maybe 2 mountains) over a thicket and a slough.
100% agree with all of this I'm working on a version that cuts the branchwalkers for initiates. I'm also testing out rhonas, the problem with deathgorge is that he just trades with a random creature on the opponents board so you can't press an advantage with him, but rhonas could fix that. Making your Phoenix a massive trampler that is hard to kill is just upside haha.
I hadn't thought about serpopard but I'm going to look into fitting it in.
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
3 root-bound crag
1 sheltered thicket
1 canyon slough
3 evolving wilds
3 forest
3 swamp
1 mountain
4 merfolk branchwalker
3 seeker's squire
4 wildgrowth walker
4 jadelight ranger
4 rekindling Phoenix
4 glorybringer
1 tetzimoc, primal death
Spells 13
3 fatal push
2 abrade
2 arguel's bloodfast
3 vraska's contempt
3 cut to ribbons
2 deadeye tracker
3 duress
2 abrade
2 deathgorge scavenger
2 sweltering suns
2 angrath, the flame-chained
I beat grixis energy, gb snek, esper approach, and grixis improvise. I lost to esper gpg (which feels like a really hard matchup).
I'll be the first to admit that the manabase isn't correct, it was hard to get double red sometimes, I'm cuting an evolving wilds and forest for the 4th crag, another slough, another thicket making it 24 lands instead of 23, I think this will fix it.
The idea was have a lot of explore to fix draws and just jam Phoenix and glorybringers till they die. And that worked really well. Arguels bloodfast is insane as well, if aggro wasn't a thing I'd maindeck 3 and I'm thinking about playing the third in the board. Even the flipped side is great because you can sac your Phoenix in response to exile removal, card is nuts. I had games where I was 15+ cards deeper than my opponent.
Going forward I'm moving the wildgrowth walkers to the board (they were unimpactful but i still think they will be good against aggro). I want 4 deathgorge in the main. Explore fuels deathgorge and deathgorge fuels bloodfast. There is a lot of power here this might not be the optimal build, but there is a tier one deck here somewhere. My matchups that I won felt really easy.
Will post my updated list soon