I think this is a simple question on resolving triggers on the stack but I did not see it specifically answered anywhere else on the MTG Salvation forums or on the WOTC forums so I just wanted to make sure.
I have a Burgeoning and Sire of Stagnation in play and an opponent plays a land card from their hand. I feel like I should be able to stack my two triggers such that the Sire of Stagnation trigger resolves first, exiling two cards from that opponent's deck and drawing two cards for me. Thus, I expect that I would be able to play a land card from among the two cards I just drew off the Sire of stagnation trigger for the burgeoning trigger.
Is this correct? Reading the cards and my understanding of play vs enters for the two triggers seems to work as such. I also understand that burgeoning does not trigger of off a fetchland, while the sire of stagnation will. I am also assuming that this ordering of triggers continues to work if a card like Rites of Flourishing is in play, and an opponent plays two lands in a turn- I should be able to draw into two land cards off of sire of stagnation triggers and play them after I drew them.
The RUG deck is designed to hose most aggro matchups. Depending on the particular main and SB, their only non-removal spell until lifegain via huntmaster/ thragtusk will be a farseek.
There are two ways to beat them:
1. outpace their removal and overwhelm before they stabilize. This is more easily accomplished by Naya Humans but R/x is possible with a very strong BTE acceleration. They can only play 1 spell a turn, and if they don't have the right removal (or enough removal), you can damage push through. If they give you a chance, a morbid brimstone volley can keep up pressure. They can fully abuse huntmaster so be aware that you need to apply as much pressure before it lands(they can play all their spells on your turn or double cast to reset him, etc). and remove it ASAP. Mulligan aggressively to this end.
2. have a more midrange strategy. Most of their removal is 2-3 dmg with only a few mortars if that. However they do have turn/burn to remove anything bigger. Boros Reckoner is a nightmare for them besides the aforementioned (Turn/Burn), a thundermaw is similarly dangerous if they dont have the counter magic (they are more heavily focused on burn than permission). That being said, haste is a definite advantage, and you have a higher threat density.
Going with the little Gruul Strategy and mulliganing for BTE is probably the best bet. Boros has charms to keep their team alive through removal. Planeswalkers are hit or miss, as they have burn to direct their way, and Ral Zarek to ping. Keep in mind this deck is designed to have a good matchup against aggro, you have to play very tight and familiarize yourself with their decklists much like you would jund or naya.
Our Best cards against them: BTE+2CMC, reckoner, thundermaw, hound of griselbrand,
OK cards against them: Ash Zealot, Domri Rade (keep up on card advantage), volcanic strength (to move out of burn range and gain unblockability), hellrider (for haste, but we are unlikely to have many creatures alive when he hits)
The Naya match-up is a tricky one, depending on what you are running and what variant they have. They can race you as an aggro deck, they can morph into a midrange power deck and slow us down before the thragtusk+resto angel hits. Either way they are often trying to do a similar game plan as us, drop a lot of creatures and pummel your opponent into submission. (The current meta of such decks is creature heavy with more SB spell content).
I submit three different variations from SCO Edison, NJ for your consideration of the match-up. All three are creature heave (as per the current meta) but each does something a little different that is problematic for R/x players, so we have to find solutions for each that is slightly different. The first has an usual spell suite, which is particularlt rough against R/x players, the second punishes spell based removal, and the third has strong synergy which is only narrowly vulnerable with the options available to us.
This deck is obviously a unique example of the flexibility Naya affords it's pilot. The maindeck VS and Ranger's Guile are a difficult tech for any R/x player to deal with. VS puts most of the Naya creatures out of burn range, while Ranger's guile is under the rader on game 1 that we may not play correctly around it. The pilgrim can accelerate out a T2 smiter, or even worse- a T2 Reckoner with dire consequences for any deck trying to go underneath it. This particular deck seems built for a Red heavy meta. Removal is key against this deck, as it can grow a big board with big creatures quickly. Black removal or white exile would be strong against it. (devour flesh, victim of the night, ultimate price, mortars, smite, searing spear, etc.)
I had the unfortunate luck of playing against this deck, and while it is lean on the spells, it still retains that nasty mana acceleration for a T2 smiter. But here the maindeck thalia slows down your removal and domri rade is used to remove your creatures via pit fighting. The addition of the two charms gives flexibility in combat tricks. The lack of Boros reckoner in this list means that we have a strong advantage if we can land one, their plan of building up a strong board turns into easy targets for a reckoner. Again removal is key against such a build, and VS helps us push through damage on a clogged board.
There are answers for both these decks; the lack of black/white removal means that VS is strong tech against them (especially on ash zealot or reckoner). A reworked removal suite (mortars) will be more effective if we cannot get rid of the mana dork in time. A traitorous blood can be timed for great impact on the battlefield. Identifying what type of Naya deck you are playing will greatly aid you in the matchup. If they run a heavy creature base you will need to burn away their threats quickly, as they don't have as many card advanatgae engines as jund (domri/thragtusk/reckoner at best). While the spell heavy builds are more the mid-range variety that we can more easily go underneath. Considering that they are usually running a greedy manabase like most other 3+ color decks, and that some want to be the aggressor, a misstep on their part can or missing a mana can cost them the game. That being said, they are usually playing the best cards in three colors.
Being a tribal deck, their mana is actually less greedy because of the flexibility Cavern of Souls affords. But unlike the previous two lists we looked at, the average creature P/T here is lower thus our removal suite goes a long way. Some cards here are also reliant on battalion to be effective, so proper timing on a removal spell can soften their board. Obviously an aggressive mulligan for stromkirk noble is needed against them unless you have a different plan; they want to go fast and underneath most decks so they will try to race other aggro decks.
General Good cards against Naya: Boros Reckoner, Rancor, Volcanic Strength, Mizzium Mortars, traitorous Blood (sometimes), Fiend Hunter, stonewright+, boros charm, dreadbore, deathtouch, etc..
Please name these many people and the events they're having success in MDing VS. I ask because I've been keeping up with tournaments for the most part and don't remember a single successful list with VS MD.
3rd Place Naya Zoo from StarCity Games Standard Open Edison, NJ
Keep in mind, he is using a more midrange build- this keeps those VS creatures out of burn range (mortars), and he can defend them better against targeted removal via ranger's guile. So this may be a limited application.
blind obedience is a terrible scourge upon aggro decks. from your turn 2 ash zealot to hellrider to your hellion token, all will bow before the orzhov alter their first turn on the field (including those returning from undying.)
there are a few ways to fight against that card (its all one game plan). the first is to punish them, they spent a turn playing an enchantment which does not directly affect the board state, attack in with your creatures and punish this ignorance of your red powers. Second; Burn them, turn their blockers into ash and smack them for not removing your threats. Third; go big, hellrider triggers still work even when he is tapped, hound of griselbrand is still a monster when he untaps a turn later. you have boros charm to make your early drops double strike (noble!).
Realize they spent a turn (and a card) that only slows down your ensuing turns, not stopping your current threats, therefore you must keep your current board advantage alive. If they burn one threat you play another, if they put down a blocker, you kill it etc. If you are playing Wr you can more easily include enchantment hate/ less haste makes this less of an issue for you.
We will defiantly see it played against us as aggro decks. It would be better suited to the W based Boros decks because they will have less haste in the mirror. Therefore they will likely be in the control mode and might consider this with blind obedience as a very strong sideboard against a R based aggro deck. Red based- probably not, burn is better suited removal.
Things Smite deals with very well: boros reckoner, spark trooper (if it sees play), alms beast (if it sees play), consuming abberation (if it sees play), obzedat (he will defiantly see play), First strikers/ double strikers/ tramplers/things just out of burn range (4+ toughness)
the inclusion of giant growth is mana-optimization not card optimization. looking at that deck and assuming we can play a BTE on 2nd turn, what else could we play that turn? the boar, lightning mauler, searing spear, OR any of the one drops (red) plus a green spell (rancor, GG), so it is included to help curve out mana wise and maximize the impact of BTE. any other suggestions for spells that cost G are welcome. The legion loyalist is the 1cmc version of pyreheart wolf, in that is makes blocking difficult/ problematic for your opponent, don't just look at him as a one-drop; see him as a R spell that says attacking creatures you control gain FS and trample until EOT. aggro red loves FS, and trample.
The idea is to drop early threats (especially with the advantage of a BTE (emissary)) to accelerate the threats for a Hellrider. This deck should empty its hand very quickly, so Huntsmaster is too slow, and most other 4 drops as well by that reasoning. I'd try to abuse BTE as hard a possible, it accelerates threats onto the field soo quickly.
Technically this is a WR Aggro, but they don't have a dedicated competitive forum. I see the average creature power being higher because of all the FS, but slower because of the lack of haste. The overall strategy is the same here however, drop early threats, hellrider ftw.
Alternativly the RW variant, which is a little more challenging because it relies upon the battalion/ pyreheart/ hellrider to be cost effective. The tough part is figuring what is worth replacing, ex: GHCW is easily dropped for the halberdiers, and boros charm is taking some other slot because it is so powerful. so this is my first (rough) draft.
My takeaways from GP:AC
GHCW OUT, Lightning Mauler IN
Archwing dragon, reckless waif meh...
Frostburn wierd mirror tech
Volcanic strength mirror tech / naya?
FoF is less relevant in current meta
Brimstone Volley IN (some reach mid game as we attack into blockers)
curve out at 4cmc and save a land.
Thoughts on how to deal with Bant Enchant Decks? It seems like we don't have a strong way to combat (interact with) them besides (chump) blocking and burning the mana dorks and silverblades, which still might not be enough with rancor and the speed ethereal armor affords. Considering how we want to go faster than them, but they curve out at 4cmc spells (2 increasing savagery). I see pyreheart as even more essential against this deck but ultimately it is a pure race where our burn doesn't slow them down that much.
I though it strange we didn't have a match-up thread for this variant:
So far I've been testing Zem's Good StuffZ deck against this deck from Clark Williamson, perhaps I am playing incorrectly but I've only managed a 30% success rate against it (after ~20 games), that goes up to about 40% after SB, but in general I feel we are slighly unfavored against this type of deck:
The general play-style:
Play out your early drops (noble, cackler, GHCW) expecting them to die to removal, so that your bigger threats (Ash zealot, hellrider, pyreheart, hound) are more likely to stick around. Try to keep your early creatures alive, as they go up in value if you are holding a hellrider or pyreheart. Hound of Griselbrand is the best card against them, Stonewright is his best friend followed by pyreheart.
My observations:
Zem's primer is right on for the most part, but your early creatures may not be applying much in the way of pressure unless you are forcing them to use a removal spell instead of farseek (which they will almost never do).
If I am on the draw I need to curve really well, and anticipate that my first few guys will get burned/ removal since the only non removal they have is farseek/shaman in the early turns before huntmaster and olivia.
If they stall at 4 lands, the win percentage goes up to ~75%. This did not happen often however.
Shaman is really annoying, but I didn't want to use a burn (mortars or spear) on him, thinking to wait for thragtusk/olivia/huntmaster. That might be the right play, but there were times when I wanted my noble to get through and grow so it can trade.
That being said, our early creature advantage is quickly erased by the abundance of early removal and lifegain via huntsmaster and thragtusk.
Don't always chump block with the undying guys, they may have removal to follow it up. Actually you should almost never block unless you need to stall for more turns.
Getting to late game when we are both top decking was actually OK, they have more land in their deck and we have hellion crucibles plus haste creatures, so this was not as bad as I thought it would be.
They only run a few bonfires, so it almost a matter of luck if they can hard cast (always at 5 mana) or miracle it to blow you out.
After SB this did get a little better, as I brought in 3 traitorous blood, the last 2 mortars, the 4th hound, and a 3rd stonewright; pulled out the cacklers, pillars, and a noble. Still was tough, as now my main creatures ate removal instead of the 1 drops. (they SB in more removal)
There is obviously a lot of subtle hints to learn from watching their order of plays and mana choices to help figure out what they have in their hand, but this still seems like a tough match-up. I felt I had to be really opportunistic, and it was really their match to lose.
Faith's Shield usually shows up in the UW Humans decks. depending on the meta, they usually run 3-4 main boarded as the only combat trick or spell. the fateful hour on it is why you leave them at 6 life before you swing for the win. its literally the only spell they run besides feeling of dread which they will side in against red too. I dont see any other deck that would run it, the WG Humans version has better cards (centaur healer, smiter, thragtusk, restoration angel) in the main so its really only the UW matchup, also be careful of them dropping a sublime archangel this should be included in your combat math if you tap out and don't kill them. Its pretty rough that he had two of them, more annoying that other W/x decks are adopting it too.
It looks like an all-in on the pyreheart/hellrider philosophy. lower top end means more consistent board presence early game, perhaps a better synergy with the lower burn density. The hound is a big problem for a lot of decks and the removal at that phase of the game. but if he is going the creature heavy route, why not mogg flunkies over GHCWalkers? I guess the possible 2:1 of not having a threat?
Card Breakdown:
Most of the deck is a pretty standard RB aggro (sans zombie) but there are some cool things in here but mostly this:
KEYRUNE: !! this is brilliant, we dont run much in the way of three drops (pyreheart) in the current meta anyways. So why not use it to accelerate into our top end/ mana fix/ add an attacker or blocker. It stops Thragtusks ( and its tokens), it avoids (most) UW removal. Bonus, helps you overload Mortars or a big bonfire.
Archwing: only here for the UW matchups, also name 'dragon' on your cavern of souls and they have almost no way to stop it.
New card to consider:
Crippling Blight: the -1/-1 removes some mana dorks and a slew of other things, but put that same -1/-1 on a blocker (think smiter or thragtusk or any UW human) and you have a semi-pyreheart.
Be careful for: Chronic Flooding: this accelerates the graveyard dump for reanimator decks, especially if this is on an overgrown tomb and an arbor elf is in play... they can dump 6 cards into their graveyard per turn, while still casting threats or acceleration.
Played a small tournament at the LGS, went 2-1-1 with this Sligh build:
This build is the low mana, high burn variety, which tries to stick early threats and build into a bunch of smaller threats punching though with hellrider/ pyreheart. The lack of the top end can be an issue against Jund and lifegain, probably against UWx control too. The SB is all over the place because I wasn’t sure what I’d face, and I was still missed what I needed.
Round 1: UW Enchantments
Game 1: 1-0
On the play, but I didn’t see much of his deck here, opening a noble into zealot was greeted by two pacifisms. Followed by an oblivion ring on hellrider. Eventually he put down a geist , but a cackler + GHCW outraced the geist from having a life lead, burn finished him off to make sure.
SB: Out: 2 Pillar of Flame, 2 Flames of the Firebrand; IN: 2 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Thunderbolt
Game 2: 2-0
On the draw, A slightly slower opening into zealot was greeted by an oblivion ring, followed by a sphere of safety. And geist , I had a noble and hellrider and was able to pay for attacks each round before the burn eventually finished him off. This could give us fits if it can stabilize before it dies; red dislikes enchantments.
Round 2: UW Humans
Game 1: 0-1
On the draw, I led with a noble which was eaten by a bird a turn after. His first turn champion grew when he added Thalia, thus rendering the FoF useless, as I was stuck on 3 mana. I added zealot and Pyreheart to the board but his two inquisitor s effectively locked me out of attacking, while being able to go on the offense themselves. Thalia 1 – Burn spells 0.
Game 2: 1-1
Red control time. I lucked out (on the draw) with 2 noble. First noble hit the board, his inquisitor ate a pillar and a second noble started a nearly unblockable clock. A champion stuck and begun growing as skyknight, skynight, silverblade were all added to the board then removed by mortars, spear, and double geistflame. Eventually I drew into a third noble, and it was a race against a late geist . Burn put me over.
Game 3: 2-1
On the draw again, I lucked into 2 nobles and a FoF . Eventually I ran out of burn and he was able to add a jubilation to the geist and raced the two nobles, but eventually burn got me there a turn before the pumped geist did.
Round 3: Jund
Game 1: 0-1
My worst matchup as a lower curve sligh, I had to go under him and around with a pyreheart, but a slow opening (on the draw) with a GHCW was met with a pillar, but a zealot stayed around to get bonded to a stonewright. He killed both next turn with golgari charm and a pillar to finish off the zealot . His garruk landed and I had no way to remove it quickly, and eventually won him the game. A mis-play losing a GHCW to the wolf token might have made it closer by the time I added a hellrider and cackler , but the endless flood of 3/3 wolves was more than I could answer without having an overloaded mortars.
Game 2: 0-2
This game was over before it started; I side boarded into control when I should have kept the aggro and just changed burn and threaten. I mulliganed down to 5 after a hand of 4 land, GHCW , Hellrider and a no land hand. I kept 2 GHCW , zealot , pillar, mountain. On the play, The first 2 GHCW were met with abrupt decay and searing spear. The zealot stuck and was joined by another GHCW but then garruk hit the board again and so did the endless wolves. Two later hellriders had nothing to do but block wolves in hopes of mortars which never came.
Round 4: GW Lifegain
Game 1: 0-1
On the play, a noble and zealot started to poke while he put down a pilgrim. Stonewright bonded with the zealot and both swung in. He blinked in the resto and killed the noble (should have seen that coming). A GHCW joined the board, and the zealot started poking away, picking off a chump blocking angel. Trostani hit the board followed by sigarda, with the zealot racing sigarda, things seemed OK with some burn in hand…until an armada wurm hit the field and he gained it all back via trostani. No pyreheart to punch through and not big enough burn.
Game 2: 1-1
On the play, a noble begins to attack while he drops a pilgrim into healer, which ate a spear, a second noble joined the board and started to build momentum. He tried to put down a sublime, but it ate a mortar and the nobles pushed through on their own.
Game 3: 1-1-1
On the draw, an opening of cackler , cackler , hellrider, stonewright built a board presence and punched through a little early. But his arbor elf accelerated a healer, and thragtusk. A Pyreheart let me attack through a blocker. He dropped a jubilation and the thragtusk attacked for 8. The angel got a bolt the next turn. I kept the wolf back to block the thragtusk and he chumped the cacklers with two dorks. He raced with a thragtusk, healer vs 2 cacklers, hellrider bonded to stonewright. Pumping everything I was 3 damage short (not drawing enough burn); the game ended on turns.
Review:
Jund and lifegain were rough for this deck, I couldn’t reliably go around them as they could make enough blockers in these variants. Hellkite needs to be an option to punch though if I don’t draw the Mortars to OL. garruk was a nightmare, I never had the burn ready for him, and he got out of hand right away. The card draw in green is also just silly, when do we get browbeat back?
Stromkirk Noble – if you can keep him going he can win (or keep them reacting) on his own. Was the only reason I had a chance in the UW matchup without having bonfire/ Mortars OL. mauler – played him once, didn’t soulbond. I feel when I add in the hound of griselbrand he will be more useful, but right now he (theoretically) helps an early drop attack fast and buff the hellrider/ pyreheart synergy. Annihilating Fire – I was expecting BR and I saw none, otherwise it’s a bad instant speed removal in other matchups. Hellion crucible – similar to above, it is in here for the mirror and UWx control, didn’t see either so I never once put a counter on it, it did delay RR for zealot one game, but that’s just a tradeoff you live with. perhaps drop down to 2 for next time, 1 SB. Pyreheart wolf – along with rider, this is what the deck wants leading the charge, I drew him often enough that I feel OK with him as a 3-of. He is a little too weak if I had two at the same time. Hellrider- you have to keep the aggressor role by the time you play him, if he is not attacking, you might as well have hanweir watchkeep. So short of the times when garruk was a problem, he finishes well. Flames of the Firebrand – only used once against UW, would be viable in the mirror as well, drop to a 2-of in the 75, not reliable enough for the cost / speed. Geistflame – similar to above, only in the mirror or UW does this work, dropped for next time. Mortars – never got to OL it, which is unfortunate, but this and thunderbolt were so vital against the angels and other larger threats. Now we just need a reliable way to kill faithmender, trostani, hellkite, and we are set. Traitorous blood – again this was the best threaten available for this style of mass creature low mana RDW, if I am adding in larger creatures for next time, I might have conscripts instead so I can steal those planeswalkers Hound of Griselbrand – probably will be a SB next time, as it can defend and trade favorably Hellkite –for next time, it’s a lot of range in one card (5), and bonus synergy of hellrider procs, otherwise devils play might be a viable range answer for this low mana variant.
I think this is a simple question on resolving triggers on the stack but I did not see it specifically answered anywhere else on the MTG Salvation forums or on the WOTC forums so I just wanted to make sure.
I have a Burgeoning and Sire of Stagnation in play and an opponent plays a land card from their hand. I feel like I should be able to stack my two triggers such that the Sire of Stagnation trigger resolves first, exiling two cards from that opponent's deck and drawing two cards for me. Thus, I expect that I would be able to play a land card from among the two cards I just drew off the Sire of stagnation trigger for the burgeoning trigger.
Is this correct? Reading the cards and my understanding of play vs enters for the two triggers seems to work as such. I also understand that burgeoning does not trigger of off a fetchland, while the sire of stagnation will. I am also assuming that this ordering of triggers continues to work if a card like Rites of Flourishing is in play, and an opponent plays two lands in a turn- I should be able to draw into two land cards off of sire of stagnation triggers and play them after I drew them.
Thank you
There are two ways to beat them:
1. outpace their removal and overwhelm before they stabilize. This is more easily accomplished by Naya Humans but R/x is possible with a very strong BTE acceleration. They can only play 1 spell a turn, and if they don't have the right removal (or enough removal), you can damage push through. If they give you a chance, a morbid brimstone volley can keep up pressure. They can fully abuse huntmaster so be aware that you need to apply as much pressure before it lands(they can play all their spells on your turn or double cast to reset him, etc). and remove it ASAP. Mulligan aggressively to this end.
2. have a more midrange strategy. Most of their removal is 2-3 dmg with only a few mortars if that. However they do have turn/burn to remove anything bigger. Boros Reckoner is a nightmare for them besides the aforementioned (Turn/Burn), a thundermaw is similarly dangerous if they dont have the counter magic (they are more heavily focused on burn than permission). That being said, haste is a definite advantage, and you have a higher threat density.
Going with the little Gruul Strategy and mulliganing for BTE is probably the best bet. Boros has charms to keep their team alive through removal. Planeswalkers are hit or miss, as they have burn to direct their way, and Ral Zarek to ping. Keep in mind this deck is designed to have a good matchup against aggro, you have to play very tight and familiarize yourself with their decklists much like you would jund or naya.
Our Best cards against them: BTE+2CMC, reckoner, thundermaw, hound of griselbrand,
OK cards against them: Ash Zealot, Domri Rade (keep up on card advantage), volcanic strength (to move out of burn range and gain unblockability), hellrider (for haste, but we are unlikely to have many creatures alive when he hits)
Good Luck.
I submit three different variations from SCO Edison, NJ for your consideration of the match-up. All three are creature heave (as per the current meta) but each does something a little different that is problematic for R/x players, so we have to find solutions for each that is slightly different. The first has an usual spell suite, which is particularlt rough against R/x players, the second punishes spell based removal, and the third has strong synergy which is only narrowly vulnerable with the options available to us.
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
2 Mountain
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
2 Ranger's Guile
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Rest in Peace
3 Boros Charm
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Domri Rade
4 Pillar of Flame
This deck is obviously a unique example of the flexibility Naya affords it's pilot. The maindeck VS and Ranger's Guile are a difficult tech for any R/x player to deal with. VS puts most of the Naya creatures out of burn range, while Ranger's guile is under the rader on game 1 that we may not play correctly around it. The pilgrim can accelerate out a T2 smiter, or even worse- a T2 Reckoner with dire consequences for any deck trying to go underneath it. This particular deck seems built for a Red heavy meta. Removal is key against this deck, as it can grow a big board with big creatures quickly. Black removal or white exile would be strong against it. (devour flesh, victim of the night, ultimate price, mortars, smite, searing spear, etc.)
3x Flinthoof Boar
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Restoration Angel
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thragtusk
3x Boros Charm
3x Selesnya Charm
3x Clifftop Retreat
2x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Rootbound Crag
3x Sacred Foundry
4x Stomping Ground
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Naturalize
3x Rest in Peace
3x Searing Spear
3x Skullcrack
I had the unfortunate luck of playing against this deck, and while it is lean on the spells, it still retains that nasty mana acceleration for a T2 smiter. But here the maindeck thalia slows down your removal and domri rade is used to remove your creatures via pit fighting. The addition of the two charms gives flexibility in combat tricks. The lack of Boros reckoner in this list means that we have a strong advantage if we can land one, their plan of building up a strong board turns into easy targets for a reckoner. Again removal is key against such a build, and VS helps us push through damage on a clogged board.
There are answers for both these decks; the lack of black/white removal means that VS is strong tech against them (especially on ash zealot or reckoner). A reworked removal suite (mortars) will be more effective if we cannot get rid of the mana dork in time. A traitorous blood can be timed for great impact on the battlefield. Identifying what type of Naya deck you are playing will greatly aid you in the matchup. If they run a heavy creature base you will need to burn away their threats quickly, as they don't have as many card advanatgae engines as jund (domri/thragtusk/reckoner at best). While the spell heavy builds are more the mid-range variety that we can more easily go underneath. Considering that they are usually running a greedy manabase like most other 3+ color decks, and that some want to be the aggressor, a misstep on their part can or missing a mana can cost them the game. That being said, they are usually playing the best cards in three colors.
The last deck I want to look at is Naya Humans.
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Experiment One
2 Frontline Medic
3 Hellrider
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Silverblade Paladin
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Clifftop Retreat
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Stomping Ground
1 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
3 Searing Spear
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 War Priest of Thune
1 Zealous Conscripts
2 Bonds of Faith
2 Rest in Peace
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Being a tribal deck, their mana is actually less greedy because of the flexibility Cavern of Souls affords. But unlike the previous two lists we looked at, the average creature P/T here is lower thus our removal suite goes a long way. Some cards here are also reliant on battalion to be effective, so proper timing on a removal spell can soften their board. Obviously an aggressive mulligan for stromkirk noble is needed against them unless you have a different plan; they want to go fast and underneath most decks so they will try to race other aggro decks.
General Good cards against Naya: Boros Reckoner, Rancor, Volcanic Strength, Mizzium Mortars, traitorous Blood (sometimes), Fiend Hunter, stonewright+, boros charm, dreadbore, deathtouch, etc..
3rd Place Naya Zoo from StarCity Games Standard Open Edison, NJ
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52944
Keep in mind, he is using a more midrange build- this keeps those VS creatures out of burn range (mortars), and he can defend them better against targeted removal via ranger's guile. So this may be a limited application.
there are a few ways to fight against that card (its all one game plan). the first is to punish them, they spent a turn playing an enchantment which does not directly affect the board state, attack in with your creatures and punish this ignorance of your red powers. Second; Burn them, turn their blockers into ash and smack them for not removing your threats. Third; go big, hellrider triggers still work even when he is tapped, hound of griselbrand is still a monster when he untaps a turn later. you have boros charm to make your early drops double strike (noble!).
Realize they spent a turn (and a card) that only slows down your ensuing turns, not stopping your current threats, therefore you must keep your current board advantage alive. If they burn one threat you play another, if they put down a blocker, you kill it etc. If you are playing Wr you can more easily include enchantment hate/ less haste makes this less of an issue for you.
Things Smite deals with very well: boros reckoner, spark trooper (if it sees play), alms beast (if it sees play), consuming abberation (if it sees play), obzedat (he will defiantly see play), First strikers/ double strikers/ tramplers/things just out of burn range (4+ toughness)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Hellrider
4 Searing Spear
4 Rancor
2 Giant Growth
Lands: 23
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Forest
11 Mountain
1 Pyreheart Wolf
1 Disciple of the Old Ways
1 Skarrg Guildmage
1 Gruul Charm
The idea is to drop early threats (especially with the advantage of a BTE (emissary)) to accelerate the threats for a Hellrider. This deck should empty its hand very quickly, so Huntsmaster is too slow, and most other 4 drops as well by that reasoning. I'd try to abuse BTE as hard a possible, it accelerates threats onto the field soo quickly.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Boros Elite
4 Frontline Medic
4 Skyknight Legionnaire
3 Precinct Captain
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Silverblade Paladin
4 Hellrider
4 Boros Charm
3 Searing Spear
Lands: 23
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Slayers' Stronghold
10 Plains
3 Mountain
1 Wojek Halberdiers
1 Boros Reckoner
1 Faith's Shield
Alternativly the RW variant, which is a little more challenging because it relies upon the battalion/ pyreheart/ hellrider to be cost effective. The tough part is figuring what is worth replacing, ex: GHCW is easily dropped for the halberdiers, and boros charm is taking some other slot because it is so powerful. so this is my first (rough) draft.
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Legion Loyalist
2 Skyknight Legionnaire
4 Ash Zealot
2 Lightning Mauler
4 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Hellrider
4 Boros Charm
4 Searing Spear
2 Pillar of Flame
Lands: 23
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Slayers' Stronghold
3 Plains
10 Mountain
1 Wojek Halberdiers
1 Boros Reckoner
GHCW OUT, Lightning Mauler IN
Archwing dragon, reckless waif meh...
Frostburn wierd mirror tech
Volcanic strength mirror tech / naya?
FoF is less relevant in current meta
Brimstone Volley IN (some reach mid game as we attack into blockers)
curve out at 4cmc and save a land.
Thoughts on how to deal with Bant Enchant Decks? It seems like we don't have a strong way to combat (interact with) them besides (chump) blocking and burning the mana dorks and silverblades, which still might not be enough with rancor and the speed ethereal armor affords. Considering how we want to go faster than them, but they curve out at 4cmc spells (2 increasing savagery). I see pyreheart as even more essential against this deck but ultimately it is a pure race where our burn doesn't slow them down that much.
So far I've been testing Zem's Good StuffZ deck against this deck from Clark Williamson, perhaps I am playing incorrectly but I've only managed a 30% success rate against it (after ~20 games), that goes up to about 40% after SB, but in general I feel we are slighly unfavored against this type of deck:
Creatures: 14
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Thragtusk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
Planeswalkers: 5
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Instants: 5
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ultimate Price
Sorceries: 12
1 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Dreadbore
4 Farseek
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Appetite for Brains
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Slaughter Games
3 Vampire Nighthawk
The general play-style:
Play out your early drops (noble, cackler, GHCW) expecting them to die to removal, so that your bigger threats (Ash zealot, hellrider, pyreheart, hound) are more likely to stick around. Try to keep your early creatures alive, as they go up in value if you are holding a hellrider or pyreheart. Hound of Griselbrand is the best card against them, Stonewright is his best friend followed by pyreheart.
My observations:
Zem's primer is right on for the most part, but your early creatures may not be applying much in the way of pressure unless you are forcing them to use a removal spell instead of farseek (which they will almost never do).
If I am on the draw I need to curve really well, and anticipate that my first few guys will get burned/ removal since the only non removal they have is farseek/shaman in the early turns before huntmaster and olivia.
If they stall at 4 lands, the win percentage goes up to ~75%. This did not happen often however.
Shaman is really annoying, but I didn't want to use a burn (mortars or spear) on him, thinking to wait for thragtusk/olivia/huntmaster. That might be the right play, but there were times when I wanted my noble to get through and grow so it can trade.
That being said, our early creature advantage is quickly erased by the abundance of early removal and lifegain via huntsmaster and thragtusk.
Don't always chump block with the undying guys, they may have removal to follow it up. Actually you should almost never block unless you need to stall for more turns.
Getting to late game when we are both top decking was actually OK, they have more land in their deck and we have hellion crucibles plus haste creatures, so this was not as bad as I thought it would be.
They only run a few bonfires, so it almost a matter of luck if they can hard cast (always at 5 mana) or miracle it to blow you out.
After SB this did get a little better, as I brought in 3 traitorous blood, the last 2 mortars, the 4th hound, and a 3rd stonewright; pulled out the cacklers, pillars, and a noble. Still was tough, as now my main creatures ate removal instead of the 1 drops. (they SB in more removal)
There is obviously a lot of subtle hints to learn from watching their order of plays and mana choices to help figure out what they have in their hand, but this still seems like a tough match-up. I felt I had to be really opportunistic, and it was really their match to lose.
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Dragonskull Summit
10 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Ash Zealot
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Rakdos Keyrune
4 Searing Spear
1 Ultimate Price
2 Appetite for Brains
3 Archwing Dragon
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Duress
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ultimate Price
2 Zealous Conscripts
Card Breakdown:
Most of the deck is a pretty standard RB aggro (sans zombie) but there are some cool things in here but mostly this:
KEYRUNE: !! this is brilliant, we dont run much in the way of three drops (pyreheart) in the current meta anyways. So why not use it to accelerate into our top end/ mana fix/ add an attacker or blocker. It stops Thragtusks ( and its tokens), it avoids (most) UW removal. Bonus, helps you overload Mortars or a big bonfire.
Archwing: only here for the UW matchups, also name 'dragon' on your cavern of souls and they have almost no way to stop it.
New card to consider:
Crippling Blight: the -1/-1 removes some mana dorks and a slew of other things, but put that same -1/-1 on a blocker (think smiter or thragtusk or any UW human) and you have a semi-pyreheart.
Be careful for:
Chronic Flooding: this accelerates the graveyard dump for reanimator decks, especially if this is on an overgrown tomb and an arbor elf is in play... they can dump 6 cards into their graveyard per turn, while still casting threats or acceleration.
This build is the low mana, high burn variety, which tries to stick early threats and build into a bunch of smaller threats punching though with hellrider/ pyreheart. The lack of the top end can be an issue against Jund and lifegain, probably against UWx control too. The SB is all over the place because I wasn’t sure what I’d face, and I was still missed what I needed.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Stonewright
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Lightning [CARD=lightning mauler]mauler
4 Ash Zealot
3 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Hellrider
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
2 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Mizzium Mortars
Land: 22
3 Hellion Crucible
19 Mountain
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Annihilating Fire
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Traitorous Blood
2 Thunderbolt
2 Geistflame
2 Flames of the Firebrand
Round 1: UW Enchantments
Game 1: 1-0
On the play, but I didn’t see much of his deck here, opening a noble into zealot was greeted by two pacifisms. Followed by an oblivion ring on hellrider. Eventually he put down a geist , but a cackler + GHCW outraced the geist from having a life lead, burn finished him off to make sure.
SB: Out: 2 Pillar of Flame, 2 Flames of the Firebrand; IN: 2 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Thunderbolt
Game 2: 2-0
On the draw, A slightly slower opening into zealot was greeted by an oblivion ring, followed by a sphere of safety. And geist , I had a noble and hellrider and was able to pay for attacks each round before the burn eventually finished him off. This could give us fits if it can stabilize before it dies; red dislikes enchantments.
Round 2: UW Humans
Game 1: 0-1
On the draw, I led with a noble which was eaten by a bird a turn after. His first turn champion grew when he added Thalia, thus rendering the FoF useless, as I was stuck on 3 mana. I added zealot and Pyreheart to the board but his two inquisitor s effectively locked me out of attacking, while being able to go on the offense themselves. Thalia 1 – Burn spells 0.
SB: Out: 4 cackler , 4 GHCW , 2 mauler ; IN: 2 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Thunderbolt, 2 FoF , 2 Pillar, 2 geistflame, 2 annihilating Fire
Game 2: 1-1
Red control time. I lucked out (on the draw) with 2 noble. First noble hit the board, his inquisitor ate a pillar and a second noble started a nearly unblockable clock. A champion stuck and begun growing as skyknight, skynight, silverblade were all added to the board then removed by mortars, spear, and double geistflame. Eventually I drew into a third noble, and it was a race against a late geist . Burn put me over.
Game 3: 2-1
On the draw again, I lucked into 2 nobles and a FoF . Eventually I ran out of burn and he was able to add a jubilation to the geist and raced the two nobles, but eventually burn got me there a turn before the pumped geist did.
Round 3: Jund
Game 1: 0-1
My worst matchup as a lower curve sligh, I had to go under him and around with a pyreheart, but a slow opening (on the draw) with a GHCW was met with a pillar, but a zealot stayed around to get bonded to a stonewright. He killed both next turn with golgari charm and a pillar to finish off the zealot . His garruk landed and I had no way to remove it quickly, and eventually won him the game. A mis-play losing a GHCW to the wolf token might have made it closer by the time I added a hellrider and cackler , but the endless flood of 3/3 wolves was more than I could answer without having an overloaded mortars.
SB: Out: 2 Pillar, 2 FoF , 4 cackler , 1 mauler ; IN: 2 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Thunderbolt, 3 Traitorous Blood, 2 Annihilating Fire
Game 2: 0-2
This game was over before it started; I side boarded into control when I should have kept the aggro and just changed burn and threaten. I mulliganed down to 5 after a hand of 4 land, GHCW , Hellrider and a no land hand. I kept 2 GHCW , zealot , pillar, mountain. On the play, The first 2 GHCW were met with abrupt decay and searing spear. The zealot stuck and was joined by another GHCW but then garruk hit the board again and so did the endless wolves. Two later hellriders had nothing to do but block wolves in hopes of mortars which never came.
Round 4: GW Lifegain
Game 1: 0-1
On the play, a noble and zealot started to poke while he put down a pilgrim. Stonewright bonded with the zealot and both swung in. He blinked in the resto and killed the noble (should have seen that coming). A GHCW joined the board, and the zealot started poking away, picking off a chump blocking angel. Trostani hit the board followed by sigarda, with the zealot racing sigarda, things seemed OK with some burn in hand…until an armada wurm hit the field and he gained it all back via trostani. No pyreheart to punch through and not big enough burn.
SB: Out: 2 Pillar, 2 FoF , 3 cackler ; IN: 2 Mizzium Mortars, 2 Thunderbolt, 3 Traitorous Blood
Game 2: 1-1
On the play, a noble begins to attack while he drops a pilgrim into healer, which ate a spear, a second noble joined the board and started to build momentum. He tried to put down a sublime, but it ate a mortar and the nobles pushed through on their own.
Game 3: 1-1-1
On the draw, an opening of cackler , cackler , hellrider, stonewright built a board presence and punched through a little early. But his arbor elf accelerated a healer, and thragtusk. A Pyreheart let me attack through a blocker. He dropped a jubilation and the thragtusk attacked for 8. The angel got a bolt the next turn. I kept the wolf back to block the thragtusk and he chumped the cacklers with two dorks. He raced with a thragtusk, healer vs 2 cacklers, hellrider bonded to stonewright. Pumping everything I was 3 damage short (not drawing enough burn); the game ended on turns.
Review:
Jund and lifegain were rough for this deck, I couldn’t reliably go around them as they could make enough blockers in these variants. Hellkite needs to be an option to punch though if I don’t draw the Mortars to OL. garruk was a nightmare, I never had the burn ready for him, and he got out of hand right away. The card draw in green is also just silly, when do we get browbeat back?
Stromkirk Noble – if you can keep him going he can win (or keep them reacting) on his own. Was the only reason I had a chance in the UW matchup without having bonfire/ Mortars OL.
mauler – played him once, didn’t soulbond. I feel when I add in the hound of griselbrand he will be more useful, but right now he (theoretically) helps an early drop attack fast and buff the hellrider/ pyreheart synergy.
Annihilating Fire – I was expecting BR and I saw none, otherwise it’s a bad instant speed removal in other matchups.
Hellion crucible – similar to above, it is in here for the mirror and UWx control, didn’t see either so I never once put a counter on it, it did delay RR for zealot one game, but that’s just a tradeoff you live with. perhaps drop down to 2 for next time, 1 SB.
Pyreheart wolf – along with rider, this is what the deck wants leading the charge, I drew him often enough that I feel OK with him as a 3-of. He is a little too weak if I had two at the same time.
Hellrider- you have to keep the aggressor role by the time you play him, if he is not attacking, you might as well have hanweir watchkeep. So short of the times when garruk was a problem, he finishes well.
Flames of the Firebrand – only used once against UW, would be viable in the mirror as well, drop to a 2-of in the 75, not reliable enough for the cost / speed.
Geistflame – similar to above, only in the mirror or UW does this work, dropped for next time.
Mortars – never got to OL it, which is unfortunate, but this and thunderbolt were so vital against the angels and other larger threats. Now we just need a reliable way to kill faithmender, trostani, hellkite, and we are set.
Traitorous blood – again this was the best threaten available for this style of mass creature low mana RDW, if I am adding in larger creatures for next time, I might have conscripts instead so I can steal those planeswalkers
Hound of Griselbrand – probably will be a SB next time, as it can defend and trade favorably
Hellkite –for next time, it’s a lot of range in one card (5), and bonus synergy of hellrider procs, otherwise devils play might be a viable range answer for this low mana variant.