I third that. I was just about to ask how to play vs Mardu. It's become a huge problem at my fnm.
Traditional Mardu shouldn't be too bad. doomwake giant, drown in sorrow, bile blight can clear out any goblins and weenies and Hero's Downfall and Abzan Charm for the random Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Murderous Cut, Hornet Queen and the aforementioned Downfall for Butcher of the Horde and the random Stormbreath Dragon, and the big one, playing around their removal suite. I wouldn't board in thoughtseize even though it's efficient because you are still kinda topdecking against Mardu. Whip of Erebos is phenomenal against Mardu and you can even go sweepers with End Hostilities. I'd keep any utter end if Sarkhan is a thing. Mardu is a mix of small weenies, big flyers, and efficient removal. Think of answers to those things: small sweepers, spot removal, tempo and card advantage. As unintuitive as it may sound, you can sweep then use elspeth, sun's Champion's +1 to gain some tempo back. They use Chained to the Rocks on your siege rhino, utter end on end of turn to gain tempo back. They wipe your board, whip hornet queen to stay on top. Mardu is one of those that you can just outlast. While you're ripping bombs off the top, their dropping a rather underwhelming Goblin Rabblemaster you can easily deal with next turn and maybe even activate a whip on top of that or drop a rhino. Survive the initial onslaught, which doesn't really let up until turn 6 and you're golden. First game, you will most likely take the more control-y route, answering threats until they run out and you start dropping. Probably still stay on the control side for the rest of the matchup, but it's better to think of it as keeping on top of tempo and CA until you overpower them. My 2 cents at least
Just went 2-1 against Heroic Jeskai Ascendancy. Sided out all my planeswalkers, Rocs, 2 Hero's Downfall and the Whip to bring in 2 Blight, 2 Drown, 4 Seize, 1 Erase. Kept Doom Giants as my finisher. Saw both in the last game ftw. Not much to report on card choices, clearly right for me. Looking like a format where card choices are not as important as what you do with them and how well you know how to play them and against them. For this matchup, I recklessly threw removal at any creature, even if I knew they had God's willing. Going 1 for 1 is great against them; I even seized a defiant strike over 2 gods willing and a retraction helix to cut out their card draw (though in retrospect I probably should have taken the helix to shore up against the combo). I also recklessly threw away any of my creatures to stand in front of attacking creatures, again knowing full well I'd lose many, but guarding my life total jealously. Attacked with a Deathdealer for 10 on one turn. Eventually you just keep drawing gas and they draw nothing. There were multiple turns where the board was sufficiently stalled and they didn't have their combo or enough pump to kill blockers so they were forced to pass or risk losing creatures for only a couple points of damage.
My deck is below (same as the one I posted a week ago now I think. Didn't want to put card tags on all my cards up there so being lazy and putting the whole deck.
If you're going 1 drops, I'd go all in and cut Roc and a land and put 4 bloodsoaked champion. I also think a switch to suspension field over banishing light would be better for you. I would even think of going 3/3 split with Sorin cause he's that good but your curve might be more important. I would also think about cutting the three temples you run and max the pain lands to ensure you're dropping your hand by t3. Otherwise looks very Aggro. If you keep stalling out and have troubles with opposing boards, good ol thoughtseize is much better in these Aggro style decks that try to close out the game before seize becomes a top deck problem like in the midrange builds. And remember that while it may be tempting to seize a bomb like a planeswalker, sometimes taking out a 2 drop to keep the board open for you to keep bashing in is the right call.
In other news, have been doing lots of winning with my latest deck posted above. Really settling down on it. Can't find any faults and no unfavorable matchup.
pharika, god of affliction is great against whip because of it's versatility to give you deathtouchers, combo with doom giant, and the ability to respond to whip targets.
I run 2 doom giants main and 1 pharika sb because that matchup kicked my butt at scg Oakland. I also run an anafenza, the foremost for that reason and because she is a decent body against disdainful stroke
Edit: so I went 2-1 against an Abzan Aggro deck today. Nothing too special on the loss, but my wins generally were from removing creatures and getting card advantage.
On another note, been testing out the singleton version I wanted to test and have learned a lot and made some changes. Here's my list.
This list was made based on how I felt about the singleton cards I was testing. These are my takeaways:
2/2 cat split is the way to go for me. I love both and they excel in different matchups. Deathdealer namely against control. Plus I am not running drown MD anymore.
Doom giant is bonkers. Interacts with courser, is better in doubles, and the fact that it fills the MD drown slot while still being a relevant body is dirty. Add in pharika post board and hornet queen is really an after thought.
Planeswalkers are king. Ajani is good, man. I have never not liked drawing him. 1 Sorin I think is good because you need the lifelink, but he's not that good. That's why slot two goes to whip. They both bring a lot of value as singletons.
Bile blight is really good in this format MD
As for the board, I think it speaks for itself. I agree with Alex, that seize is good against any deck running blue. Reaper is a great card and deserves a spot in the 75 against the mirror. The only thing I would say I would be worried about are the new Jeskai heroic ascendancy decks that won scg Oakland. If they catch on, Spirit of the labarynth is a card I will be testing as it wrecks the deck's cantrip mechanism that keeps their hands full of heroic/prowess enablers.
The reason they play it is because they don't have a good 3/3 2 drop to advance their Aggro plan. They would probably run fleecemane over seeker if they could.
I've been testing out the list quite a bit and I really like soul of theros. I think he is going to stick around in the list because it allows you to play after whip gets hated on. One change I made was taking out eidolon of blossoms since I found her to be too awkward in the hand and of only real use while in the grave. I've been testing reaper of the wilds as a replacement and I really like it. It may not get the constellation trigger off but I think the added protection and threat makes it worth it.
I'd like other peoples thoughts on the deck. Brad Nelson's main complaint in his scg video was the sideboard, which he felt needed to include wraths and elspeth for devotion match ups.
Yeah, I thought the 4 Fleecemane sideboard was goofy. I know the Fleecemanes won Edward the last game of the finals, but there have to be better cards for those spots. I might do what Brad says and put in Elspeth and End Hostilities.
I don't think you can realistically take out 2 mana creatures and replace them with those bombs. fleecemane lion is just a house against any deck that plays disdainful stroke.
Beat Jeskai Tempo 2-1 last night. First two games were pretty decisive in either direction. I took game 1 slamming threats and pulling ahead in CA, he had a good draw, and me not enough removal.
Third game was great. I mulled to 5, he stayed at 7. He wasn't able to play threats in the first few turns (he might have been playing around removal or waiting for me to tap out, or he may have just been playing the control game, but he wasn't mana screwed). Card draw on Abzan Charm and siege rhino get countered early, but still not many threats and I'm managing a single Goblin Rabblemaster with a sylvan caryatid and a courser of kruphix. Then Keranos, God of Storms and the race is on. I'm forced to deal with creatures to make sure the board is empty. Had enough removal to pull it off.
Take aways: Once Keranos hits, it's pretty much a race unless you have Erase or utter end. Also, I don't know if it's the right play, but I tend to use my removal on my turn to lower the probabilities of them countering.
Played against a Heroic Jeskai Ascendancy deck last night. Gotta say, first game was a blowout. The deck is really versatile, being able to combo off randomly, while still pressuring early and winning the aggro game if it doesn't draw the combo. I got overrun by weenies first game with a jeskai charm. While I don't think we have to add new cards to combat the deck (I think normal Ascedency hate + weenie hate is a good combo. Even Hero's Downfall seems too expensive to keep all four post-board), it's definitely an intense matchup, where you also have to think about closing the game quickly once you stabilize or risk getting comboed.
I played against the deck last night and went 1-1 where the guy rage quit (or just had to go, I like rage quit more lol) after I used Abzan Charm to pump my two sylvan caryatids to take out his attacking Akroan Crusader and another token (I normally wouldn't block a Prowess dude unless I was ready to lose whatever I blocked with). I don't think he played around the charm and lost a big part of his plan with that. Even if you can get them to use a God's Willing or some other Heroic/Prowess enabler, it can prevent them from using it when they want to combo off/do a bunch of damage with prowess. The deck has many cantrips that work with the plan, so unlike normal aggro, it is hardly ever in full top deck mode, always having a few cards in hand. Retraction Helix is also used offensively to bounce a courser of kruphix before attacks to keep bashing in. I don't think I kept anything higher than 4cmc post board. Elspeth, Sun's Champion may theoretically stabilize with tokens, but that's only if you can get there, and a lot of times I don't want to use caryatids for mana so I can block.
I am usually very busy being a teacher and tutoring after school, but I've been trying to get at least one match in every day. If I come across anything cool I'll keep adding my match notes. Felt this one was noteworthy because it beat our comrade at SCG Oakland (well, don't know if actually BEAT him, but did better), and I could see it being a muuuuch more resilient Ascendancy deck, which is exactly what that deck needed to be more successful.
Thanks for your replies, Alex! I'll definitely take all of this into consideration. You are right about the conflict between Drown and Deathdealer. Gotta say, though, never had a problem with it because he was in the board and he only came in matchups that drown came out, so that was convenient. Don't know how they will work together in the main, so playtesting will have to tell me. Can't say enough about him though against control.
I'll be testing the planeswalkers out and taking note of which matchups they actively hurt me and decide before GP SA. I'm going to test out Erebos to see if I like him with Whip as I do think the two can work well together. I'd really only board him in the mirror, possibly against control, but i'm not that worried about them gaining life, so probably only the mirror. I could definitely see Pharika as SB tech instead of MB, btw. Like you said, can't see it that useful in non-midrange matchups.
I played against you that last game at GoB Friday night. It was the mirror. I learned a lot and I guess I just wanted to break down my experience and see what you think about some particular cards and matchups. I tried to split up paragraphs by cards and realized I wrote a lot as I also wanted to get my thoughts down. I don't mean to impose on your time so thank you for reading and I hope anything sticks out as intersting!
First, how did you like fleecemane lion? Did you like it over Rakshasha Deathdealer? I loved Deathdealer whenever it came out of the board. Amazing against U/B control and against decks with Disdainful Stroke and pumping makes it a 4/4 with regen option most of the time. The problem I see is that it can be targeted and exiled.
In that vein, how did Reaper of the Wild? I loved the card in theory and if it worked well for you I will probably start including it.
I love the singleton Pharika, God of Affliction and was one of the things I thought about including but didn't own one. Did you ever get devotion for it? I think it's great that you can use it in response to opponent's Whip of Erebos. Did you ever use it that way and do you think the deathtouch token that they get is relevant? Btw, Doomwake Giant is an obvious inclusion with Pharika and when you used it that night it was just an awesome instant speed interaction that deserves the spots in the deck. Did you play/have any trouble with opposing Whip decks? My singleton Anafenza, the Foremost was great against Disdainful Stroke and while easy to kill, was a relvenat 4/4 body in the matchups that it came in on. If Whip becomes a thing, a singleton of each could deal with both creatures entering and creatures already in the 'yard.
I'd throw my hat in the 0-1 Thoughtseize MB with 4 in the 75 for sure. You said it all. But I guess now we get to the contentious part of the whole thing. Do you join Hornet Queen or beat it? I certainly got housed by it when it got played against me, and the Whip is really a dirty interaction. That being said, I will be trying to beat that interaction in particular as it is the only one that I really felt blew me out of the water. I think cards like Bile Blight and Hushwing Gryff could be real answers that interact favorably in other situations. I guess this is a big one that I'll be testing out because the 7 mana is scary and congratulations on reading the meta correctly with that, it clearly paid off this weekend.
I know we had a bit of a conversation about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and I did like it when it came out. It's weakness is that it whiffed one time when the board was empty and the opponent just Hero's Downfall. That was only once, though, and I think now that I'm off the control plan (As an aside, the control plan was not right. The threat route is the way to go and I think I went that way because I used the removal as a crutch for my lack of playtesting and weak play), it will not miss as much and I do think you'd find it hit something a lot in your deck. It's definitely powerful and worth testing I think.
On the other planeswalker side, I agree that Sorin, Solemn Visitor is definitely not as good as Whip can be and I always thought he was lackluster. Unless Whip starts getting a lot of hate, Sorin might not be the right call. I'll probably 1/1 split until GP San Antonio to see which one I like more.
I noticed you didn't run End Hostilities or Duneblast. How did that go? Did you miss them at all?
From my end, the only things I really can add is that Read the Bones is suuuuuper powerful. I can't really see it more than 1 in 75, but it's never bad. I really think it needs a spot. The only other thing I saw that I liked a lot (well, not at the time because I was playing against it) was Erebos, God of the Dead. The interaction with Whip is crazy, not to mention both of his abilities are very relevant.
Edit: Also of note: Liliana Vess tutor two turns in a row is nothing to sneeze at. The discard was pretty useless in the tope deck war and it seemed like making a control player discard a drop from their sea of cards in hand. Honestly, the ultimate is tempting, but the +1 isn't worth it. Like I said, two for on tutor or eats a downfall or burn or something. S'good.
Edit 2: Because I wanted to get a test list up while I was still fresh and that I can start working on tomorrow, I put this together:
If Sorin fails, probably MB the Queen and SB another Whip. I like the idea of 4 Blight in the 75, but may drop 1 to add a Reaper if you found them useful, which would also make me do a 3/2 split with Rhino/Reaper. That said, I think Rhino is so good, did you miss him with only 3 in the deck? Also if Liliana and Ajani don't work out, they would probably be replaced by some more Hornet Queens in the 75 if I decide to keep going that route.
I think Ajani is being included because Ari's list included it. In some article from a member of that team, he explained that Ajani, Mentor of Heroes was included because they believed control decks would be prevalent at the Pro Tour, which is fair because they always seem to be. It was a good call because UB control did show up in significant numbers and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes can help you not be top decking.
That said, I cut it long ago. We aren't seeing UB control at events and certainly not in the later rounds. I also noticed that the more controlling (basically w/ Thoughtseize instead of Fleecemane Lion) builds don't have enough targets to warrant using his middle ability, which is the ability I'm most interested in. I don't think he's good against Mardu because our creatures don't live long enough to benefit from the 3 +1/+1 counters and again the middle ability misses a lot. He's also bad against fast red based aggro which is showing up in large numbers these days.
I use Brimaz, King of Oreskos in its place. I like Brimaz against Mardu because it helps stretch their removal out (something they're good at doing to us) and goes into combat well with Seeker of the Way and Goblin Rabblemaster. It's obviously good against those fast decks and also serves as a strong card against the UB control deck if it does show up as a significant creature that drops early and dodges Disdainful Stroke and Bile Blight. I've even liked Brimaz against the green ramp strategies. In these games, I usually want to be the controller and Brimaz provides good pressure that they have to defend with mana producers while I spend removal on their real creatures. BTW, if the mana producers are Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic and Rattleclaw Mystic, they can't even profitably go into combat with the cat token.
The only thing I find unattractive about Brimaz is the double white but I've honestly rarely had a problem casting it.
Brimaz's call has been strong. He seems good in a lot of situations. If I wasn't going for a more PW controlly build, I would definitely add him. I don't think he is strong enough an answer to any deck to be a SB option, but I think he is definitely a strong MB option in the place of others. I definitely like him in a more creature-oriented Midrange build since he isn't really aggro and you really want that big butt and vigilance in the Midrange game. I honestly think he is super strong and probably would go with him if I as going the creature build.
What is the best sideboard option against UB Control? Right now I have 3 Phyrexian Revoker, since it shuts down Ashiok, Pearl-Lake Ancient, and Sphinx. But usually it just eats a Hero's Downfall or Murderous Cut and then they play the threat. I've heard about Stain the Mind as an option... but I'm wondering if it's likely to just be countered, and we might be putting too much reliance on that card succeeding.
You haven't tried Nissa? She's a beast. Also Liliana
I've been thinking a lot about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in the midrange build, and the more I think, the less I like him. The numbers just don't feel right.
Take at look at Kamahl's list (above) for example -- not picking on you man, just a readily-accessible example. I think the overall changes are moving in a great direction, but even so, we have 16 creatures and PW's (besides Ajani himself) that you might find with the second [+1] ability. Assuming typical draws so far (i.e. the creature to non-creature ratio of the deck is the same as 16/60), you've got about a 72% chance of finding a target on each activation.
So I have to ask: why Ajani? Clearly Scry and Courser make him better; is that the basis of the plan? If we have courser in play, do we usually let the top card dictate which Ajani [+1] to use? Because I'm definitely not interested in paying five mana for a PW that gives me a 28% chance of whiffing on an activation every turn, but he seems to be a popular inclusion as a 1- or 2-of.
I think you're underestimating how good the other +1 is. It's crazy good. Sorin t4 into Ajani to make a 5/5 flier is beastly.
Plus, his other +1 ensures it replaces itself 3 out of 4 times, that's pretty good, especially if you're getting a threat. I used to think it wasn't that good, but I have been relieved every time I draw it.
Kamahl, I gotta say, I think you solved my quandry. I like Liliana MB and I think this can be a killer build. I did end up cutting a bit of the removal suite to beef up the PW. You said it yourself, PW are great in the meta right now against 1 for 1, but I don't think you go far enough with it; you only have 6 PW. Here's the list I will be testing, which is yours modified a bit:
For some reason, I'm too much of a coward to just cut the caryatid's completely, but if many of the classic lists run 2 Mystics "just to make sure you get to your mana", then I think using the same justification for only 2 Caryatids is valid.
I may ultimately be wrong about cutting removal for more PW, but I think the beef is necessary or you risk not actually executing your gameplan if they remove them. I really like the MD wipe and the various 1-of removal, and I think your explanation for them is right on. I go with the 4 Drowns in the SB because I've used them and it's such a blowout, I just want to get that feeling at the tourney I'm playing in. I'm shaky on the Whip and Anafenza in the SB, but Whip I think can be really good against grindy matchups and the random Anafenza I think is there in case I go against a Sidisi deck, and she's not that bad against Jeskai and other creature-based blue that would run delve. I would even bring her in against control matchups as another random body.
Edit: I don't think Whip will work with the low creature count. I'm always 99% tempted to throw a garruk, apex predator because I want him to be a thing. I will probably end up just playing another naturalize or and unravel the aether to shore up against Ascendancy, Whip, and Vault decks.
I have been contemplating the removal of Sylvan Caryatid for a while now, and I recently decided to commit to it for a couple reasons. Ari's list is still what I consider to be the best core for Abzan, I don't feel that the 2 drop "threat" package is really where the deck wants to be given that it still has unfavorable matches against Mardu Midrange and GRx Monster decks. Your primary removal suite, regardless of what shell you are running, is the driving force behind why these matches are weak. You are limited on ways to deal with Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker and Stormbreath Dragon when your stuck using your draw spells as removal and Hero's Downfall might as well be the only removal spell you run that is real. Sure, you can still Abzan Charm a Sarkhan but you don't have a way of setting yourself up to deal with things effectively on a 1 for 1 ratio and still come out ahead against things like Goblin Rabblemaster, Elspeth, Sun's Champion or the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker or Stormbreath Dragon that likes to land in an untimely fashion.
Your removal is your weak spot, not the lack of threat density.
That catch here is that you make your aggro matches kind of funky in game 1. Sorin, Solemn Visitor really allows you to make up for this with things like Courser of Kruphix or Siege Rhino - which gives us some play in game 1 still.
The biggest revelation I have really had since picking up this deck is with Abzan Charm. You want to be using this to draw as often as you possibly can. The deck has a funky way of drawing 0 or 1 Rhino in one game and 3-4 the next and drawing helps you really balance this out. Sylvan Caryatid is one of those cards where I feel people are stuck on the dream of a turn 3 Siege Rhino or Sorin, Solemn Visitor or that ramp into another walker a whole turn earlier. The fact of it is, it just isn't that powerful in these colors unless it is a match you are probably already favored in. I have removed Caryatid for additional support in stable removal with cards like Murderous Cut and Silence the Believers as I feel the extra slots here help you roll out your midrange plan more effectively while giving you tools to prevent disaster from striking. In the games I have played since removing Caryatid, I find that I am often times assuming the control route and just setting up for a big midrange play and focus on attrition more than anything. The singleton Brimaz, King of Oreskos isn't really needed in the main I do not think, but I am running 3 total in the 75 to make up for not running Drown in Sorrow. Pairing them with the 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor still gives me a lot of play against aggressive decks while allowing me to get aggressive against more controlling decks - perhaps my favorite thing here is that I get an additional threat that goes under Disdainful Stroke while still avoiding an over saturation of early threats.
Ari's list is solid, focusing more on the walkers gives you a better game against decks running removal. With so much 1 for 1 removal, the value you get from the walker suite is probably the best value you can get in Standard.
Ok, so I was starting to think I was the only one to be thinking this way. I think the next iteration of Abzan needs to get more controlly with some additional removal and I like silence the believers against Mardu, but I do think a bile blight would be better; that card is insane right now methinks. I'm also not sure I like running Brimaz over drown in sorrow because it's such a blowout, but hey, to each his own. I think those who were building the deck mentioned in a deck tech that they specifically chose a lot of their removal so that it would not be dead against control matchups, which I think are not going to be as prevalent as midrange and aggro, at least this weekend in the tournament I'm going to. I think switching this up to better accommodate the current meta is certainly the way to go. I haven't explored it too much, and I do like your list. I completely agree that Abzan Charm should be more of a card draw.
The way I went was to keep caryatid, add 2 mystics, add another land and go bigger on the threat scale. This is the list I brewed up this morning, but I haven't gotten to play it and probably won't until tonight. I like your list, though, because it removes dead draws in caryatid and is lower on the curve, but the only problem real I can see is the heavy color requirements in all three colors. The biggest inclusions for me are garruk, apex predator and Aegis Angel, which I think is a card right now if you're going big. I would love comments on it =). Either way, I think I'm leaning towards Planeswalkers; I just think they are too good in the meta right now.
Edit: You know, I really just put up my list in case I stumbled upon something cool, and I do think it has some potential, but your list with liliana and the lower curve does seem like a slightly better choice for a tournament. The only change I would make to your list is replace the silence the believers with a bile blight, then move a murderous cut and a Brimaz to the board to put in two sylvan caryatid. I'm still worried about consistency and honestly caryatid does a fine job of slowing aggro down.
Traditional Mardu shouldn't be too bad. doomwake giant, drown in sorrow, bile blight can clear out any goblins and weenies and Hero's Downfall and Abzan Charm for the random Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Murderous Cut, Hornet Queen and the aforementioned Downfall for Butcher of the Horde and the random Stormbreath Dragon, and the big one, playing around their removal suite. I wouldn't board in thoughtseize even though it's efficient because you are still kinda topdecking against Mardu. Whip of Erebos is phenomenal against Mardu and you can even go sweepers with End Hostilities. I'd keep any utter end if Sarkhan is a thing. Mardu is a mix of small weenies, big flyers, and efficient removal. Think of answers to those things: small sweepers, spot removal, tempo and card advantage. As unintuitive as it may sound, you can sweep then use elspeth, sun's Champion's +1 to gain some tempo back. They use Chained to the Rocks on your siege rhino, utter end on end of turn to gain tempo back. They wipe your board, whip hornet queen to stay on top. Mardu is one of those that you can just outlast. While you're ripping bombs off the top, their dropping a rather underwhelming Goblin Rabblemaster you can easily deal with next turn and maybe even activate a whip on top of that or drop a rhino. Survive the initial onslaught, which doesn't really let up until turn 6 and you're golden. First game, you will most likely take the more control-y route, answering threats until they run out and you start dropping. Probably still stay on the control side for the rest of the matchup, but it's better to think of it as keeping on top of tempo and CA until you overpower them. My 2 cents at least
I kinda go through my SB a few posts up. I have won 3 matches against them so far and can't say it was because they drew poorly either...
My deck is below (same as the one I posted a week ago now I think. Didn't want to put card tags on all my cards up there so being lazy and putting the whole deck.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Fleecemane lion
2 rakshasha deathdealer
4 courser of kruphix
4 siege rhino
2 Wingmate roc
2 doomwake giant
Planeswalkers 5
1 Sorin, solemn visitor
2 Ajani, mentor of heroes
2 elspeth, sun's champion
4 abzan charm
3 hero's downfall
2 utter end
1 bile blight
1 whip of erebos
Land 24
24 standard build
4 thoughtseize
1 murderous cut
2 drown in sorrow
2 bile blight
1 reaper of the wild
1 erase
1 anafenza, the foremost
1 pharika, god of affliction
1 hornet queen
1 end hostilities
In other news, have been doing lots of winning with my latest deck posted above. Really settling down on it. Can't find any faults and no unfavorable matchup.
He allows for hornet queen to just be a 1 for 1.
pharika, god of affliction is great against whip because of it's versatility to give you deathtouchers, combo with doom giant, and the ability to respond to whip targets.
I run 2 doom giants main and 1 pharika sb because that matchup kicked my butt at scg Oakland. I also run an anafenza, the foremost for that reason and because she is a decent body against disdainful stroke
Edit: so I went 2-1 against an Abzan Aggro deck today. Nothing too special on the loss, but my wins generally were from removing creatures and getting card advantage.
On another note, been testing out the singleton version I wanted to test and have learned a lot and made some changes. Here's my list.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Fleecemane lion
2 rakshasha deathdealer
4 courser of kruphix
4 siege rhino
2 Wingmate roc
2 doomwake giant
Planeswalkers 5
1 Sorin, solemn visitor
2 Ajani, mentor of heroes
2 elspeth, sun's champion
4 abzan charm
3 hero's downfall
2 utter end
1 bile blight
1 whip of erebos
Land 24
24 standard build
4 thoughtseize
1 murderous cut
2 drown in sorrow
2 bile blight
1 reaper of the wild
1 erase
1 anafenza, the foremost
1 pharika, god of affliction
1 hornet queen
1 end hostilities
This list was made based on how I felt about the singleton cards I was testing. These are my takeaways:
2/2 cat split is the way to go for me. I love both and they excel in different matchups. Deathdealer namely against control. Plus I am not running drown MD anymore.
Doom giant is bonkers. Interacts with courser, is better in doubles, and the fact that it fills the MD drown slot while still being a relevant body is dirty. Add in pharika post board and hornet queen is really an after thought.
Planeswalkers are king. Ajani is good, man. I have never not liked drawing him. 1 Sorin I think is good because you need the lifelink, but he's not that good. That's why slot two goes to whip. They both bring a lot of value as singletons.
Bile blight is really good in this format MD
As for the board, I think it speaks for itself. I agree with Alex, that seize is good against any deck running blue. Reaper is a great card and deserves a spot in the 75 against the mirror. The only thing I would say I would be worried about are the new Jeskai heroic ascendancy decks that won scg Oakland. If they catch on, Spirit of the labarynth is a card I will be testing as it wrecks the deck's cantrip mechanism that keeps their hands full of heroic/prowess enablers.
I don't think you can realistically take out 2 mana creatures and replace them with those bombs. fleecemane lion is just a house against any deck that plays disdainful stroke.
Third game was great. I mulled to 5, he stayed at 7. He wasn't able to play threats in the first few turns (he might have been playing around removal or waiting for me to tap out, or he may have just been playing the control game, but he wasn't mana screwed). Card draw on Abzan Charm and siege rhino get countered early, but still not many threats and I'm managing a single Goblin Rabblemaster with a sylvan caryatid and a courser of kruphix. Then Keranos, God of Storms and the race is on. I'm forced to deal with creatures to make sure the board is empty. Had enough removal to pull it off.
Take aways: Once Keranos hits, it's pretty much a race unless you have Erase or utter end. Also, I don't know if it's the right play, but I tend to use my removal on my turn to lower the probabilities of them countering.
I played against the deck last night and went 1-1 where the guy rage quit (or just had to go, I like rage quit more lol) after I used Abzan Charm to pump my two sylvan caryatids to take out his attacking Akroan Crusader and another token (I normally wouldn't block a Prowess dude unless I was ready to lose whatever I blocked with). I don't think he played around the charm and lost a big part of his plan with that. Even if you can get them to use a God's Willing or some other Heroic/Prowess enabler, it can prevent them from using it when they want to combo off/do a bunch of damage with prowess. The deck has many cantrips that work with the plan, so unlike normal aggro, it is hardly ever in full top deck mode, always having a few cards in hand. Retraction Helix is also used offensively to bounce a courser of kruphix before attacks to keep bashing in. I don't think I kept anything higher than 4cmc post board. Elspeth, Sun's Champion may theoretically stabilize with tokens, but that's only if you can get there, and a lot of times I don't want to use caryatids for mana so I can block.
I am usually very busy being a teacher and tutoring after school, but I've been trying to get at least one match in every day. If I come across anything cool I'll keep adding my match notes. Felt this one was noteworthy because it beat our comrade at SCG Oakland (well, don't know if actually BEAT him, but did better), and I could see it being a muuuuch more resilient Ascendancy deck, which is exactly what that deck needed to be more successful.
I'll be testing the planeswalkers out and taking note of which matchups they actively hurt me and decide before GP SA. I'm going to test out Erebos to see if I like him with Whip as I do think the two can work well together. I'd really only board him in the mirror, possibly against control, but i'm not that worried about them gaining life, so probably only the mirror. I could definitely see Pharika as SB tech instead of MB, btw. Like you said, can't see it that useful in non-midrange matchups.
Congratulations on top 4!
I played against you that last game at GoB Friday night. It was the mirror. I learned a lot and I guess I just wanted to break down my experience and see what you think about some particular cards and matchups. I tried to split up paragraphs by cards and realized I wrote a lot as I also wanted to get my thoughts down. I don't mean to impose on your time so thank you for reading and I hope anything sticks out as intersting!
First, how did you like fleecemane lion? Did you like it over Rakshasha Deathdealer? I loved Deathdealer whenever it came out of the board. Amazing against U/B control and against decks with Disdainful Stroke and pumping makes it a 4/4 with regen option most of the time. The problem I see is that it can be targeted and exiled.
In that vein, how did Reaper of the Wild? I loved the card in theory and if it worked well for you I will probably start including it.
I love the singleton Pharika, God of Affliction and was one of the things I thought about including but didn't own one. Did you ever get devotion for it? I think it's great that you can use it in response to opponent's Whip of Erebos. Did you ever use it that way and do you think the deathtouch token that they get is relevant? Btw, Doomwake Giant is an obvious inclusion with Pharika and when you used it that night it was just an awesome instant speed interaction that deserves the spots in the deck. Did you play/have any trouble with opposing Whip decks? My singleton Anafenza, the Foremost was great against Disdainful Stroke and while easy to kill, was a relvenat 4/4 body in the matchups that it came in on. If Whip becomes a thing, a singleton of each could deal with both creatures entering and creatures already in the 'yard.
I'd throw my hat in the 0-1 Thoughtseize MB with 4 in the 75 for sure. You said it all. But I guess now we get to the contentious part of the whole thing. Do you join Hornet Queen or beat it? I certainly got housed by it when it got played against me, and the Whip is really a dirty interaction. That being said, I will be trying to beat that interaction in particular as it is the only one that I really felt blew me out of the water. I think cards like Bile Blight and Hushwing Gryff could be real answers that interact favorably in other situations. I guess this is a big one that I'll be testing out because the 7 mana is scary and congratulations on reading the meta correctly with that, it clearly paid off this weekend.
I know we had a bit of a conversation about Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and I did like it when it came out. It's weakness is that it whiffed one time when the board was empty and the opponent just Hero's Downfall. That was only once, though, and I think now that I'm off the control plan (As an aside, the control plan was not right. The threat route is the way to go and I think I went that way because I used the removal as a crutch for my lack of playtesting and weak play), it will not miss as much and I do think you'd find it hit something a lot in your deck. It's definitely powerful and worth testing I think.
On the other planeswalker side, I agree that Sorin, Solemn Visitor is definitely not as good as Whip can be and I always thought he was lackluster. Unless Whip starts getting a lot of hate, Sorin might not be the right call. I'll probably 1/1 split until GP San Antonio to see which one I like more.
I noticed you didn't run End Hostilities or Duneblast. How did that go? Did you miss them at all?
From my end, the only things I really can add is that Read the Bones is suuuuuper powerful. I can't really see it more than 1 in 75, but it's never bad. I really think it needs a spot. The only other thing I saw that I liked a lot (well, not at the time because I was playing against it) was Erebos, God of the Dead. The interaction with Whip is crazy, not to mention both of his abilities are very relevant.
Edit: Also of note: Liliana Vess tutor two turns in a row is nothing to sneeze at. The discard was pretty useless in the tope deck war and it seemed like making a control player discard a drop from their sea of cards in hand. Honestly, the ultimate is tempting, but the +1 isn't worth it. Like I said, two for on tutor or eats a downfall or burn or something. S'good.
Edit 2: Because I wanted to get a test list up while I was still fresh and that I can start working on tomorrow, I put this together:
2 Rakshasha Deathdealer
1 Fleecemane Lion
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Siege Rhino
1 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Wingmate Roc
Spells 12
1 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
1 Read the Bones
2 Utter End
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Liliana Vess
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Chamption
Lands
24 Lands
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Hornet Queen
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Erase
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Bile Blight
If Sorin fails, probably MB the Queen and SB another Whip. I like the idea of 4 Blight in the 75, but may drop 1 to add a Reaper if you found them useful, which would also make me do a 3/2 split with Rhino/Reaper. That said, I think Rhino is so good, did you miss him with only 3 in the deck? Also if Liliana and Ajani don't work out, they would probably be replaced by some more Hornet Queens in the 75 if I decide to keep going that route.
Brimaz's call has been strong. He seems good in a lot of situations. If I wasn't going for a more PW controlly build, I would definitely add him. I don't think he is strong enough an answer to any deck to be a SB option, but I think he is definitely a strong MB option in the place of others. I definitely like him in a more creature-oriented Midrange build since he isn't really aggro and you really want that big butt and vigilance in the Midrange game. I honestly think he is super strong and probably would go with him if I as going the creature build.
You haven't tried Nissa? She's a beast. Also Liliana
I think you're underestimating how good the other +1 is. It's crazy good. Sorin t4 into Ajani to make a 5/5 flier is beastly.
Plus, his other +1 ensures it replaces itself 3 out of 4 times, that's pretty good, especially if you're getting a threat. I used to think it wasn't that good, but I have been relieved every time I draw it.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Liliana Vess
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Abzan Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
1 Bile Blight
1 Utter End
1 End Hostilities
1 Read the Bones
4 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
1 Hero's Downfall
1 End Hostilities
1 Duneblast
1 Utter End
1 Naturalize
1 Unravel the Æther
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
For some reason, I'm too much of a coward to just cut the caryatid's completely, but if many of the classic lists run 2 Mystics "just to make sure you get to your mana", then I think using the same justification for only 2 Caryatids is valid.
I may ultimately be wrong about cutting removal for more PW, but I think the beef is necessary or you risk not actually executing your gameplan if they remove them. I really like the MD wipe and the various 1-of removal, and I think your explanation for them is right on. I go with the 4 Drowns in the SB because I've used them and it's such a blowout, I just want to get that feeling at the tourney I'm playing in. I'm shaky on the Whip and Anafenza in the SB, but Whip I think can be really good against grindy matchups and the random Anafenza I think is there in case I go against a Sidisi deck, and she's not that bad against Jeskai and other creature-based blue that would run delve. I would even bring her in against control matchups as another random body.
Edit: I don't think Whip will work with the low creature count. I'm always 99% tempted to throw a garruk, apex predator because I want him to be a thing. I will probably end up just playing another naturalize or and unravel the aether to shore up against Ascendancy, Whip, and Vault decks.
Ok, so I was starting to think I was the only one to be thinking this way. I think the next iteration of Abzan needs to get more controlly with some additional removal and I like silence the believers against Mardu, but I do think a bile blight would be better; that card is insane right now methinks. I'm also not sure I like running Brimaz over drown in sorrow because it's such a blowout, but hey, to each his own. I think those who were building the deck mentioned in a deck tech that they specifically chose a lot of their removal so that it would not be dead against control matchups, which I think are not going to be as prevalent as midrange and aggro, at least this weekend in the tournament I'm going to. I think switching this up to better accommodate the current meta is certainly the way to go. I haven't explored it too much, and I do like your list. I completely agree that Abzan Charm should be more of a card draw.
The way I went was to keep caryatid, add 2 mystics, add another land and go bigger on the threat scale. This is the list I brewed up this morning, but I haven't gotten to play it and probably won't until tonight. I like your list, though, because it removes dead draws in caryatid and is lower on the curve, but the only problem real I can see is the heavy color requirements in all three colors. The biggest inclusions for me are garruk, apex predator and Aegis Angel, which I think is a card right now if you're going big. I would love comments on it =). Either way, I think I'm leaning towards Planeswalkers; I just think they are too good in the meta right now.
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Aegis Angel
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
other spells: 13
1 Duneblast
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abzan Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Bile Blight
1 Utter End
Edit: You know, I really just put up my list in case I stumbled upon something cool, and I do think it has some potential, but your list with liliana and the lower curve does seem like a slightly better choice for a tournament. The only change I would make to your list is replace the silence the believers with a bile blight, then move a murderous cut and a Brimaz to the board to put in two sylvan caryatid. I'm still worried about consistency and honestly caryatid does a fine job of slowing aggro down.