My intuition is that Reality Smasher would be better in the MD than Thought-Knot Seer. I think you can't really afford 2-for-1 yourself in all the grindy matchups (because of the risk of them having 0 cards in hand), so I'd prefer it in the sideboard to swap against combo.
My intuition is that more than 4 5-drops creatures is too many.
Except they're not really 5-drops
Yeah but we're also playing 4 "not really" six drops. We need to be ready for our plan to go wrong, not for it to go right. When we have 5 mana on turn 3, yeah, we're good. But what happens when we don't draw that well? It's gonna happen, and I'd rather not be too all-in on high-cost dudes.
Yeah I get that. I'm hoping inquisition, thoughtseize, and kozilek's return stall quick decks long enough to start hammering out creatures. Realistically if we don't have a temple or eye we don't have a great chance regardless.
I mean, theoretically we're OK if we can drop some durdly body like Thought-Knot Seer on Turn 4 and curve into Bligh Herder Turn 5. Better than having nothing Turn 4.
But yes it's not ideal. Also I hadn't really considered the problem you raise about Thought-Knot Seer when the opponent has no cards in hand / is holding just 1 instant speed removal spell. In that case he's pretty awful. Well, I guess I can imagine either just playing less creatures and more disruption, or playing a split between Endless One and Reality Smasher.
My intuition is that Reality Smasher would be better in the MD than Thought-Knot Seer. I think you can't really afford 2-for-1 yourself in all the grindy matchups (because of the risk of them having 0 cards in hand), so I'd prefer it in the sideboard to swap against combo.
My intuition is that more than 4 5-drops creatures is too many.
Except they're not really 5-drops
Yeah but we're also playing 4 "not really" six drops. We need to be ready for our plan to go wrong, not for it to go right. When we have 5 mana on turn 3, yeah, we're good. But what happens when we don't draw that well? It's gonna happen, and I'd rather not be too all-in on high-cost dudes.
EDIT: Though I do acknowledge that you have a point about one of the downsides of Thought-Knot Seer. I hadn't thought about that, and it does make me reconsider. Perhaps a Reality Smasher / Endless One split is the way to go instead.
My intuition is that Reality Smasher would be better in the MD than Thought-Knot Seer. I think you can't really afford 2-for-1 yourself in all the grindy matchups (because of the risk of them having 0 cards in hand), so I'd prefer it in the sideboard to swap against combo.
My intuition is that more than 4 5-drops creatures is too many.
@Typhoon: Lashwrithe is a really cool idea that is probably win-more, I think. It's only good with Urborg out and we're just not a deck that's all-in on Urborg. And we're not exactly suffering from a lack of heavy hitters.
This is pretty close to what I'm going to be playing as well. I don't think I'm going to go to 4 Wailing Wall but I definitely want it somewhere in the 75 and the rest of your setup looks similar to what I'm doing now. I'd probably make the GFTTs Dismembers and drop one of the warping wails for an Endless one.
Perhaps. I want to start with 4 and see what it's like, however. I know I feel that Endless One is mediocre, so hopefully Warping Wail... isn't. Dismember might be stronger than Go for the Throat, sure. Neither one seems great, honestly.
Have any thoughts on Thought-Knot Seer or the correct number of Expedition Maps to run visa-v the correct number of Relics/Claws/Spellbombs?
Don't forget that Warping Wail blanks Liliana's -2.
Endless one has been FANTASTIC. You can drop a turn one 2/2 off of eye to stop aggro, a turn 2 4/4 to apply extreme pressure, and in a topdeck war it can just be massive. It's an EXTREMELY versatile card and I've never been unhappy to see it.
Dismember is just a little more versatile than GFTT - I think I'd rather run smother than gftt because of the affinity matchup.
I currently run three endless ones, I was just going to drop two and slot TKS in their place for testing.
I run two maps, 3 Eyes, 2 Urborg, 4 Relic, 2 Spellbomb, 2 surgical. I've really been happy with this setup. I feel like Relic/Spellbomb are both almost strictly better than claws.
Blanking a liliana -2 is big game I hadn't thought of. Just more versatility, sweet.
Interesting thoughts on Endless One. I hadn't tested it because it seemed so meh without Eye or Temple — and even with them it's just a vanilla dude. But I see how it can get big fast. I'll give it more consideration.
Same goes to Dismember. I don't like losing the life but it is easy to cast.
Why not 3 Urborg? If you run 3 Ugin, you might as well just bite the bullet and risk it.
This is pretty close to what I'm going to be playing as well. I don't think I'm going to go to 4 Wailing Wall but I definitely want it somewhere in the 75 and the rest of your setup looks similar to what I'm doing now. I'd probably make the GFTTs Dismembers and drop one of the warping wails for an Endless one.
Perhaps. I want to start with 4 and see what it's like, however. I know I feel that Endless One is mediocre, so hopefully Warping Wail... isn't. Dismember might be stronger than Go for the Throat, sure. Neither one seems great, honestly.
Have any thoughts on Thought-Knot Seer or the correct number of Expedition Maps to run visa-v the correct number of Relics/Claws/Spellbombs?
Don't forget that Warping Wail blanks Liliana's -2.
I also like how this is never entirely dead because of the eldrazi scion mode. Landing our guys a turn earlier is a big deal, some people play mind stone for that (although a scion is worst than a rock i think). I also like how this is castable with eldrazi scions from blight herder. This means you can tap out for it vs twin and have removal up (in addition to dismember in my case).
It can also hit a few merfolks, a few hatebears, unflipped delver of secrets, any token producing sorcery like lingering souls, all of the soul sisters, every discard spells if you really like your hand, every wrath effect, living end, summer bloom, a few burn spells, etc.
Not sure if main deck but i'll gladly pick up a few for my sideboard at the very least!
It also reduces your reliance on having access to B. This should make mulliganing easier.
I didn't notice the OR Power on this card. Hmm on second glance, this seems pretty decent then.
Yeah, I was worried at first that it didn't hit one or the other between Twin and Mite.
Kills Swiftspear in Burn (but nothing else) along with most of Affinity and all of Infect. Sadly, it never hits Etched Champion or Kor Firewalker or it would be a real winner. Does kill Master of Waves though. Deals with Spellskite but Spellskite can also steal the target if you're aiming it at something better.
It's good. It's even better in Legacy than in Modern (and it combos nicely with Sol Lands). However, it should see play in the Eldrazi deck. I hope not just in the board — playing some number of these MD seems to help against several decks and can always just be a bad instant-speed blocker. Playing them MD also lets you lean less heavily on a colored (white or red) splash.
Testing will tell. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I think Warping Wail is the real deal. Wrecks Twin, is good against Affinity and Scapeshift, and even has applications against Burn and Amulet Bloom. The only strong decks it's dead against are Zoo and Merfolk. I'd like to fit Flaying Tendrils in there, but black sources are getting dangerously low.
This may be kind of blasphemous, but I wonder if there isn't a better finisher than Tooth and Nail. Ugin is pretty non-synergistic with all the other Walkers we run, but is something like Karn strong enough to be good? I wonder if just playing a bunch of Walkers isn't enough to win. Do we really need a spell that spends most of the game sitting around doing nothing?
Next, I think Kiora is at this point obviously stronger than Garruk, at least in the context of a ramp strategy.
I chose a 3/2 split of Fertile Grounds and Voyaging Satyr because they are both relatively slow, but we need to be doing something at 2 mana.
Finally, only 1 Retreat to Coralhelm — sometimes it's an "oops, I win" button, but mostly it will just help us smooth out draws a bit. Perhaps it's correct to play more, however, in order to have a stronger Plan B.
They're different based on what you're trying to accomplish. Dromoka's is better versus burn, red decks in general and when the fight mode is valuable.
Simic Charm is better against Delve creatures, Path to Exile, anything trying to kill your permanents that aren't creatures. I've been choosing Simic main deck in decks that support both typically lately.
True enough. I prefer Dromoka's Command because it feels more objectively powerful due to the ability to get a 2-for-1 out of it in the right situation. Simic Charm is by no means weak, but it's just a little more limited.
Mass Hysteria intrigues me a lot. The deck would become super fast and be almost immune to removal. You try and kill the knight? Grab Sejiri Steppe in response. Try and kill a Mangara? He's exiling something before he goes down. All your creatures are now hasty, speeding up your beatdown plan. I don't know if there's enough to build around though. I just thought of this and it makes me want to try it out, because just maybe it would work. Any other relevant tap cards that would benefit from being hasty? Any other good haste providing cards?
This won't be good, because Mass Hysteria benefits your opponents as well. Sure, you automatically get value from Knight and Mangara, but I don't think that justifies playing a card that is otherwise weak and that could even negatively affect our game plan.
Play Dromoka's Command over Stubborn Denial. It does everything. Stops Twin, wins Goyf wars, is strong vs. Burn. (Even if you're not playing Goyf, it's stronger than Denial. Denial, as I'm sure you know, is pretty weak without Goyf anyways.)
Secondly, I've never liked Steppe Lynx with company. It seems like such a weak thing to drop into play at instant speed. But I haven't tested it, I'll admit.
The problem with Sunhome is that you can't punch through any chump blockers. What if they have Snapcasters? Manlands? They just chump and your whole combo is gone. You can leave up a Windswept to deal with a potential surprise blocker, but what if they have too many creatures to tap down? There's just so many possibilities of Sunhome not being able to get through. Wolf Run guarantees you get just about everything through to their face, ensuring an almost guaranteed victory once you've combo'd off. And as you've mentioned, Wolf Run is better without combo. It just lets you punch through defenses in so many different instances.
All fair points. I've had the manland situation come up already, and it's a pain to deal with. Against Merfolk especially it's relevant. I just hate the idea of taking 10 or so damage to combo against burn. I haven't done the math, but if Sunhome costs 5 life to deal 20, Kessig must cost a lot more than that...
Someone should figure out how bad it is if you're comboing off turn 3 with Knight, Dork, and Retreat in play, and just two lands (both of which are tapped), only one of which is a forest/plains. That's the bare minimum situation to combo. With Sunhome, I know it's 5 life. With Kessig... more.
I don't think we need Kessig Wolf Run anymore, It's more trouble than it's worth taking tons of damage to net enough mana to make a trampling knight big enough, we're inherently going to create extra tap triggers from Retreat to Coralhelm + fetchlands so I honestly think it makes more sense to run Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion and something like Soaring Seacliff because we're going to be tapping down a lot of blockers anyway. Then you only have to run through 8ish lands to get Knight of the Reliquary to a 10/10, and you only have to net 4 mana for the sunhome activation. Seems a lot safer and more reliable to me.
Completely agree. Yet if you're not comboing, you'd generally rather have Kessig Wolf Run. It's good late game with dorks. We don't want this deck to be a one trick pony.
My only issue (and its probably just a personal one) is I feel naked if I dont have Remand main, though I see you have negate in the side, what do you remove for them? Also how big are you finding Goyf to get? In my last several, he hasnt broken 3/4!
Goyf is usually a 3/4 of 4/5. Visions helps with that. It's pretty easy to get Sorcery, Instant, Land, Creature in the yard.
As to Remand: I never seriously considered playing Remand in this deck. This is not a control or even an aggro-control deck. It's an aggro-combo deck that can switch to a more controlling role. But you're never going to sit back with 2 mana up, and be winning, at least in the early game. This isn't Twin where you don't have to tap out almost every turn.
Negate is for switching into that more controllish role post-board. It's for Tron, Twin, and Scapeshift, mostly, as well as for anyone you think will Wrath you. You slow down to play a more conservative game. I'm not completely sure what to take out for it yet, but probably 1 Birds of Paradise, 2 Scavenging Ooze (Ooze being unexceptional in the above match-ups), and perhaps 1 Dromoka's Command or 1 Retreat to Coralhelm. That depends how combo-centric you want to be post-board. Finally, I want to say that the sideboard is still very up in the air. For instance, having 3 Spellskite may be too many, especially since the deck it's strongest against -- Twin -- is one against which we can already bring in 4 Negate and already have 3 Dromoka's Command and 3 Qasali Pridemage maindeck! This may all be overkill. And is there a better option than the 3rd Spellskite against Burn? Wondering.
I mean, theoretically we're OK if we can drop some durdly body like Thought-Knot Seer on Turn 4 and curve into Bligh Herder Turn 5. Better than having nothing Turn 4.
But yes it's not ideal. Also I hadn't really considered the problem you raise about Thought-Knot Seer when the opponent has no cards in hand / is holding just 1 instant speed removal spell. In that case he's pretty awful. Well, I guess I can imagine either just playing less creatures and more disruption, or playing a split between Endless One and Reality Smasher.
Yeah but we're also playing 4 "not really" six drops. We need to be ready for our plan to go wrong, not for it to go right. When we have 5 mana on turn 3, yeah, we're good. But what happens when we don't draw that well? It's gonna happen, and I'd rather not be too all-in on high-cost dudes.
EDIT: Though I do acknowledge that you have a point about one of the downsides of Thought-Knot Seer. I hadn't thought about that, and it does make me reconsider. Perhaps a Reality Smasher / Endless One split is the way to go instead.
My intuition is that more than 4 5-drops creatures is too many.
@Typhoon: Lashwrithe is a really cool idea that is probably win-more, I think. It's only good with Urborg out and we're just not a deck that's all-in on Urborg. And we're not exactly suffering from a lack of heavy hitters.
Interesting thoughts on Endless One. I hadn't tested it because it seemed so meh without Eye or Temple — and even with them it's just a vanilla dude. But I see how it can get big fast. I'll give it more consideration.
Same goes to Dismember. I don't like losing the life but it is easy to cast.
Why not 3 Urborg? If you run 3 Ugin, you might as well just bite the bullet and risk it.
Perhaps. I want to start with 4 and see what it's like, however. I know I feel that Endless One is mediocre, so hopefully Warping Wail... isn't. Dismember might be stronger than Go for the Throat, sure. Neither one seems great, honestly.
Have any thoughts on Thought-Knot Seer or the correct number of Expedition Maps to run visa-v the correct number of Relics/Claws/Spellbombs?
Don't forget that Warping Wail blanks Liliana's -2.
It also reduces your reliance on having access to B. This should make mulliganing easier.
It's good. It's even better in Legacy than in Modern (and it combos nicely with Sol Lands). However, it should see play in the Eldrazi deck. I hope not just in the board — playing some number of these MD seems to help against several decks and can always just be a bad instant-speed blocker. Playing them MD also lets you lean less heavily on a colored (white or red) splash.
4 Blight Herder
4 Oblivion Sower
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Expedition Map
1 Scrabbling Claws
1 Thoughtseize
4 Warping Wail
2 Go for the Throat
10 Swamp
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuku Bog
Testing will tell. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I think Warping Wail is the real deal. Wrecks Twin, is good against Affinity and Scapeshift, and even has applications against Burn and Amulet Bloom. The only strong decks it's dead against are Zoo and Merfolk. I'd like to fit Flaying Tendrils in there, but black sources are getting dangerously low.
Granted.
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Path to Exile
3 Fertile Ground
2 Voyaging Satyr
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Hinterland Harbor
Yeah, I'd be excited to test that.
This may be kind of blasphemous, but I wonder if there isn't a better finisher than Tooth and Nail. Ugin is pretty non-synergistic with all the other Walkers we run, but is something like Karn strong enough to be good? I wonder if just playing a bunch of Walkers isn't enough to win. Do we really need a spell that spends most of the game sitting around doing nothing?
Next, I think Kiora is at this point obviously stronger than Garruk, at least in the context of a ramp strategy.
I chose a 3/2 split of Fertile Grounds and Voyaging Satyr because they are both relatively slow, but we need to be doing something at 2 mana.
Finally, only 1 Retreat to Coralhelm — sometimes it's an "oops, I win" button, but mostly it will just help us smooth out draws a bit. Perhaps it's correct to play more, however, in order to have a stronger Plan B.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Horizon Canopy
This is what I regard as my "core." It's still only 57 cards, however. There should be at least 1 more land -- I'm thinking Lumbering Falls, Celestial Colonnade, or Stirring Wildwood -- and 2 other things: perhaps 1 Ojutai's Command (instant speed Goyf seems nice) and 1 Dragonlord Ojutai.
Thoughts on these last 3 slots?
True enough. I prefer Dromoka's Command because it feels more objectively powerful due to the ability to get a 2-for-1 out of it in the right situation. Simic Charm is by no means weak, but it's just a little more limited.
This won't be good, because Mass Hysteria benefits your opponents as well. Sure, you automatically get value from Knight and Mangara, but I don't think that justifies playing a card that is otherwise weak and that could even negatively affect our game plan.
Secondly, I've never liked Steppe Lynx with company. It seems like such a weak thing to drop into play at instant speed. But I haven't tested it, I'll admit.
Edit: Simic Charm is also weaker than Dromoka's Command. Though I can imagine some sort of split.
All fair points. I've had the manland situation come up already, and it's a pain to deal with. Against Merfolk especially it's relevant. I just hate the idea of taking 10 or so damage to combo against burn. I haven't done the math, but if Sunhome costs 5 life to deal 20, Kessig must cost a lot more than that...
Someone should figure out how bad it is if you're comboing off turn 3 with Knight, Dork, and Retreat in play, and just two lands (both of which are tapped), only one of which is a forest/plains. That's the bare minimum situation to combo. With Sunhome, I know it's 5 life. With Kessig... more.
Completely agree. Yet if you're not comboing, you'd generally rather have Kessig Wolf Run. It's good late game with dorks. We don't want this deck to be a one trick pony.
Goyf is usually a 3/4 of 4/5. Visions helps with that. It's pretty easy to get Sorcery, Instant, Land, Creature in the yard.
As to Remand: I never seriously considered playing Remand in this deck. This is not a control or even an aggro-control deck. It's an aggro-combo deck that can switch to a more controlling role. But you're never going to sit back with 2 mana up, and be winning, at least in the early game. This isn't Twin where you don't have to tap out almost every turn.
Negate is for switching into that more controllish role post-board. It's for Tron, Twin, and Scapeshift, mostly, as well as for anyone you think will Wrath you. You slow down to play a more conservative game. I'm not completely sure what to take out for it yet, but probably 1 Birds of Paradise, 2 Scavenging Ooze (Ooze being unexceptional in the above match-ups), and perhaps 1 Dromoka's Command or 1 Retreat to Coralhelm. That depends how combo-centric you want to be post-board. Finally, I want to say that the sideboard is still very up in the air. For instance, having 3 Spellskite may be too many, especially since the deck it's strongest against -- Twin -- is one against which we can already bring in 4 Negate and already have 3 Dromoka's Command and 3 Qasali Pridemage maindeck! This may all be overkill. And is there a better option than the 3rd Spellskite against Burn? Wondering.
Ian