One thing I realised after testing with Neonate: if you can discard a dredger -> insane. If you can't -> very underwhelming. I still like it more than the 2-mana enablers, Salvage and Wayfinder, but it does sound much better than it is. I'll test more and see if hitting dredgers t1 is more likely than it seems after the couple of games I played.
This is why you must play more than 5 dredgers in a Neonate list. I think 8+ is optimal. You always want one in your opening hand.
That's at least the initial list, but lots of things feel very set in stone with a few flex slots. Running all 16 possible threats that come from grave greatly increases the chance of each instance of Dredge being relevant. Although Prized Amalgam initially feels slow (not only returning at end step, but also tapped), the fact that it tags along with any of the other threats is great, and multiples get crazy really fast. I'm not saying we have a deck...but we might have a deck on our hands. It's really fast and has a bigger threat density than pre-SOI lists.
I see we've arrived at similar lists. I have removal in the side and play Loam main, along with more land than you and a 1-of Dregscape Zombie as another way to activate Amalgam. How does MD removal feel?
I worry it may slow us down when the opponent isn't playing a creature turn 1. That said, it does free up slots in the SB. I had already been considering cutting the Dregscape Zombie for a Sinister Concoction MD, and this encourages me to test that. But I don't like that Concoction is so useless when dredged.
Sorry if this has been discussed (MTGS search tool isn't the most reliable), but I am toying with this get-out-of-town spicy idea of The Gitrog Monster as Modern's best chance at imitating Legacy Dredge.
The turn 2 win scenario requires a lot of luck, so here's a more realistic turn three scenario.
Turn one: Cast Faithless Looting, discarding Gitrog and Golgari Grave-Troll
Turn two: Play a land. You don't need to do anything else, but you can Grisly Salvage to ensure you have a Dredge target in your bin if you didn't get to loot one away turn 1.
Turn three: Play Goryo's Vengeance, targeting Gitrog. Then play a fetch and crack it.
Here's where things get interesting.
- With the fetch ability still on the stack, Gitrod draws you a card for the fetch going to the bin. Replace that draw with dredging GGT.
- Dredge six. For each land that you hit on the dredge, Gitrog triggers again. As long as you have a dredge target left in your bin, you can replace that draw with a dredge again and keep doing this until you've nearly decked yourself. (Count your triggers to make sure you have enough cards left to draw once you're done dredging.) If you don't have a fourth land in hand, be sure to dredge up a Dakmor Salvage somewhere along this process.
While this is going on, you are filling your graveyard up with Bloodghasts, Narcomoebas and Prized Amalgams, and thanks to Gitrog granting you an extra land drop to trigger Bloodghast, you will likely have 4 of each of these in play at the end of the process, for a pretty lethal swing the next turn.
(This is possible on turn 2 as well - the issue is that Bloodghast is hard to trigger there, because the dredge loop all happens while your fetch trigger is on the stack, and by the time it resolves, you probably don't have a tutorable land left in your library, so you can't trigger Bloodghast, and therefore also miss some copies of Amalgam.)
Here's the thing I'm looking for input on though - this is a crazy effect, but I think we can probably do better than swinging for 24 on turn 4. Let's break this interaction wide open.
Last night I had 2 Ghast, 1 Neonate, 1 Vine, and 3 Amalgam on the board on turn 2.
That's why Amalgam is good.
In fact I am thinking of cutting Vine altogether and playing Ghoulsteed. It takes way less set up even though it's a weaker card. Then we could cut green altogether and play Hedron Crab.
EDIT:
This is where am at after even more testing. Anyone got any feedback?
Scavenging Ooze is also a pain. I'd like to fit in 1 more Concoction to deal with it, but Darkblast has been so good against Elves, Chord and other sort of rough MUs that I want to have 3. Maybe there's room for one Concoction in the maindeck, if I cut Dregscape Zombie or Dakmor Salvage.
The reason for the 2/1 Loam/Salvage split is that occasionally you don't want to wait a turn to activate Ghast. In those cases, Salvage is better. But generally Loam is superior.
Hard MUs so far: Infect, anything playing Scavenging Ooze. Infect is easier with Darkblast, I'd think, and I think one more Concoction can help too. Scooze can be handled with Concoction and Thoughtseize.
SB is still rough. Leyline is a blowout. Nature's Claim is probably our best tool against it, Vintage-style.
Vengevine is sometimes the worst card in the deck and sometimes it's ridiculous. Salvage is an important piece of the puzzle; I've tested everywhere between 4 and 2 of them and settled on 2.
The 4th Imp is a flex slot, but I'm not sure what's better than it for now.
I can't see how this guy is worth an auto 4-of. Goblin Bushwhacker is infinitely times better. Also, I have to say no to the [card]Gitaxian Probe[card] listed above me. It's not what we want to do.
Are you joking?
@Killer Manfred: I already cut Anglers for Sinister Concoction (more discard outlets!) and am not looking back yet.
QwrtVV, looks like a cool list to start with. I'd want to test some Sinister Concoctions in there, too. Maybe just a 1-of.
I have a feeling 3 Gurmag Angler might be excessive. It's not a card we can cast easily in this version. I'd cut 1 and play 1 more Stinkweed Imp because dredging matters in this build.
In fact, I'm off to test it now.
With neo discarding first, dredging gets very easy. I think angler might have never been easier - we can t2 play neo, sac, dredge, and angler to trigger vv if we wanted. It feels like (without any testing) Neo has greatly increased the power level of this deck.
Oh, completely agree. That goes without saying. Neonate is awesome.
But I think you're making my argument for a me a little bit - it's so important to have a dredger in your opening hand so you can get the maximum value out of Neonate.
Actually, after a bit of testing, I've already decided to go back down to 1 Imp and play another land in favor of the 3rd Angler. It makes mulligans less frequent.
QwrtVV, looks like a cool list to start with. I'd want to test some Sinister Concoctions in there, too. Maybe just a 1-of.
I have a feeling 3 Gurmag Angler might be excessive. It's not a card we can cast easily in this version. I'd cut 1 and play 1 more Stinkweed Imp because dredging matters in this build.
Agree that Lingering Souls is a more powerful direction than Tallowisp. Do not necessarily think Hokori is worth the investment. It dies to almost everything.
Hexproof of course makes it more reliable. So maybe it's worth it. But 3 seems like a lot by any standard.
Then there's Eidolon of Countless Battles. Why are you playing this card, again?
Guys, I hate to break it to you, but Geralf's Messenger is really not a good card. It comes into play tapped so it will do nothing the first turn; nothing when they bolt it, and nothing when it's still smaller than Goyf.
On the other hand, Diregraf Colossus is incredible.
From there we need to decide on direction. A green splash allows for Collected Company. A white splash for Tidehollow Sculler. We could also play Aether Vial and perhaps Thoughtseize. Maybe Death Baron to buff our horde.
This deck badly needs two-drops, because Zombies has historically had bad two-drops. Withered Wretch is an OK option, but I think Tidehollow Sculler is better. Therefore, I would opt to splash white before splashing any other color.
Then I would play Vial. Vial is just great in creature decks like this.
If we're playing Vial, I think it's safe to assume no Collected Company is in this deck, because those cards interact a little too much. But since we're in white, I think we should opt for Path to Exile instead of Thoughtseize as a support spell.
I agree with something someone said over in the spoiler thread about cutting black from this deck (not sure why I thought to include it in the first place, really). My list would then be:
Something like that. The lands are very rough. As is the creature count. But I think those are the creatures I want to be playing, in some numbers. Still unconvinced Spirit of the Labyrinth does enough in Modern - not sure which deck it hoses (none?).
Geist in plan A. Drogskol + other dudes is plan B. As the Zur decks have shown, you don't need more than 3 or 4 enchantments maindeck to make Tallowisp effets powerful. If it triggers 3 times, you're winning.
"Rattlechains" - 1U
Creature - Spirit {R}
Flash, flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, target spirit gains hexproof until end of turn.
You can cast spirit spells as though they had flash.
2/1.
4 Topplegeist
4 Rattlechains
4 Tallowisp
2-3 Spirit of the Labryrinth (maybe Phantasmal Image is better? There's not really card draw in Modern.)
3-4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Detention Sphere
1-2 Other enchant creatures (Threads of Disloyalty?)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands, including Cavern of Souls and Moorland Haunt
It looks strong to me. Maybe I'm being dumb playing Vial, Cavern, and Rattlechains - that's a bit redundant. But they're all strong. And as to omitting lingering souls, well, it's bad with Vial and Tallowisp. Not that this is an all-in Tallowisp deck, but T2 Wisp, T3 Geist, T4 Steel of the Godheads seems pretty sick.
If decklists shouldn't go here I'm happy to start a thread (or revive an old one).
Edit: Also spirits: Anafenza (the white two-drop; probably warrants a place here) and Kataki, War's Wage, which will definitely be a 3-4 of in any good SB.
Jace is great and you could make the argument that it preserves the thing with the plus loyalty.
Jace is of course great, but I wonder if it has a place here. The 2-drop slot isn't exactly empty between Remand, TITI and probably Spellskite. Yeah Jace is good, but does he contribute to the overall gameplan? Does he makes this deck into a worse version of Grixis Control?
What's the best scenario with him? Something like T1 discard, T2 Jace, T3 TITI, visions, T4 something, flip jace, flashback, flip TITI.
Seems... slow.
Maybe we could get Thought Scour in here, but that seems like a lot of work.
Still, I'm not opposed to 1-2 Jace, just because it will draw removal and (maybe) do some work.
I've been thinking more about Ojutai's Command and Cryptic Command. The former seems basically inferior to KCommand since putting TITI onto the battlefield is only marginally better than returning him to your hand (for 1 less mana, too). Cryptic is of course very good, but I wonder if it belongs in a deck that's trying to chain spells. Probably as a 1-2 of for Snapcaster.
The problem is obviously that we can't be too all-in on TITI. I think some back-up plan involving manlands, Snapcaster, and burn seems good, or if we're on Esper, manlands and some high CMC Angelic beaters.
This is why you must play more than 5 dredgers in a Neonate list. I think 8+ is optimal. You always want one in your opening hand.
I see we've arrived at similar lists. I have removal in the side and play Loam main, along with more land than you and a 1-of Dregscape Zombie as another way to activate Amalgam. How does MD removal feel?
I worry it may slow us down when the opponent isn't playing a creature turn 1. That said, it does free up slots in the SB. I had already been considering cutting the Dregscape Zombie for a Sinister Concoction MD, and this encourages me to test that. But I don't like that Concoction is so useless when dredged.
Looks worth testing but you MUST play Insolent Neonate as Faithless Looting 5-8.
That's why Amalgam is good.
In fact I am thinking of cutting Vine altogether and playing Ghoulsteed. It takes way less set up even though it's a weaker card. Then we could cut green altogether and play Hedron Crab.
EDIT:
This is where am at after even more testing. Anyone got any feedback?
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
1 Dregscape Zombie
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Faithless Looting
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Life from the Loam
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Watery Grave
1 Polluted Delta
4 Nature's Claim
4 Thoughtseize
3 Darkblast
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sinister Concoction
Scavenging Ooze is also a pain. I'd like to fit in 1 more Concoction to deal with it, but Darkblast has been so good against Elves, Chord and other sort of rough MUs that I want to have 3. Maybe there's room for one Concoction in the maindeck, if I cut Dregscape Zombie or Dakmor Salvage.
The reason for the 2/1 Loam/Salvage split is that occasionally you don't want to wait a turn to activate Ghast. In those cases, Salvage is better. But generally Loam is superior.
Hard MUs so far: Infect, anything playing Scavenging Ooze. Infect is easier with Darkblast, I'd think, and I think one more Concoction can help too. Scooze can be handled with Concoction and Thoughtseize.
Great work overall. Thank you.
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Faithless Looting
2 Rotting Rats
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
1 Polluted Delta
4 Nature's Claim
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
SB is still rough. Leyline is a blowout. Nature's Claim is probably our best tool against it, Vintage-style.
Vengevine is sometimes the worst card in the deck and sometimes it's ridiculous. Salvage is an important piece of the puzzle; I've tested everywhere between 4 and 2 of them and settled on 2.
The 4th Imp is a flex slot, but I'm not sure what's better than it for now.
Are you joking?
@Killer Manfred: I already cut Anglers for Sinister Concoction (more discard outlets!) and am not looking back yet.
Oh, completely agree. That goes without saying. Neonate is awesome.
But I think you're making my argument for a me a little bit - it's so important to have a dredger in your opening hand so you can get the maximum value out of Neonate.
Actually, after a bit of testing, I've already decided to go back down to 1 Imp and play another land in favor of the 3rd Angler. It makes mulligans less frequent.
I have a feeling 3 Gurmag Angler might be excessive. It's not a card we can cast easily in this version. I'd cut 1 and play 1 more Stinkweed Imp because dredging matters in this build.
In fact, I'm off to test it now.
I think it's worth rebuilding your list to MAKE 4 slots for Neonate. It's the best thing to happen to Modern dredge in a long time.
I think it's a 4-of automatically. No?
In that case, lists would start with a base of:
Happy brewing!
Hexproof of course makes it more reliable. So maybe it's worth it. But 3 seems like a lot by any standard.
Then there's Eidolon of Countless Battles. Why are you playing this card, again?
I think the deck should be:
4 Topplegeist
4 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
2 Moorland Haunt
4 Kataki, War's Wage
On the other hand, Diregraf Colossus is incredible.
I'd want to start with this creature base:
From there we need to decide on direction. A green splash allows for Collected Company. A white splash for Tidehollow Sculler. We could also play Aether Vial and perhaps Thoughtseize. Maybe Death Baron to buff our horde.
This deck badly needs two-drops, because Zombies has historically had bad two-drops. Withered Wretch is an OK option, but I think Tidehollow Sculler is better. Therefore, I would opt to splash white before splashing any other color.
Then I would play Vial. Vial is just great in creature decks like this.
So that gives us an additional:
If we're playing Vial, I think it's safe to assume no Collected Company is in this deck, because those cards interact a little too much. But since we're in white, I think we should opt for Path to Exile instead of Thoughtseize as a support spell.
So then... 4 Path to exile
That's 24 cards. Obviously we need more. I would then add 4 Death Baron to buff the team and do tricks with Vial. So 28.
From there, some number of Gary can fit into the deck. Sure, it's slow, but it's a powerful effect. Perhaps 2 is enough.
Is Korlash, Hero of I totally forget what a card we'd want to play here?
Clearly we need a few more good zombies to flesh out this deck. Maybe 2 Withered Wretch could go MD, as well.
Anyways, I think I'm homing in on something playable. Not Tier 1, but not Tier 8 either.
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Topplegeist
4 Tallowisp
4 Rattlechains
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit
4 Aether Vial
1 Steel of the Godhead
3 More Auras (at least 1 that exiles stuff)
2 Moorland Haunt
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Celestial Collonade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Plains
2 Island
2 Mutavault
1 Glacial Fortress
Something like that. The lands are very rough. As is the creature count. But I think those are the creatures I want to be playing, in some numbers. Still unconvinced Spirit of the Labyrinth does enough in Modern - not sure which deck it hoses (none?).
Geist in plan A. Drogskol + other dudes is plan B. As the Zur decks have shown, you don't need more than 3 or 4 enchantments maindeck to make Tallowisp effets powerful. If it triggers 3 times, you're winning.
Agree. I think I'd start with:
4 Topplegeist
4 Rattlechains
4 Tallowisp
2-3 Spirit of the Labryrinth (maybe Phantasmal Image is better? There's not really card draw in Modern.)
3-4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Detention Sphere
1-2 Other enchant creatures (Threads of Disloyalty?)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands, including Cavern of Souls and Moorland Haunt
It looks strong to me. Maybe I'm being dumb playing Vial, Cavern, and Rattlechains - that's a bit redundant. But they're all strong. And as to omitting lingering souls, well, it's bad with Vial and Tallowisp. Not that this is an all-in Tallowisp deck, but T2 Wisp, T3 Geist, T4 Steel of the Godheads seems pretty sick.
If decklists shouldn't go here I'm happy to start a thread (or revive an old one).
Edit: Also spirits: Anafenza (the white two-drop; probably warrants a place here) and Kataki, War's Wage, which will definitely be a 3-4 of in any good SB.
Jace is of course great, but I wonder if it has a place here. The 2-drop slot isn't exactly empty between Remand, TITI and probably Spellskite. Yeah Jace is good, but does he contribute to the overall gameplan? Does he makes this deck into a worse version of Grixis Control?
What's the best scenario with him? Something like T1 discard, T2 Jace, T3 TITI, visions, T4 something, flip jace, flashback, flip TITI.
Seems... slow.
Maybe we could get Thought Scour in here, but that seems like a lot of work.
Still, I'm not opposed to 1-2 Jace, just because it will draw removal and (maybe) do some work.
I've been thinking more about Ojutai's Command and Cryptic Command. The former seems basically inferior to KCommand since putting TITI onto the battlefield is only marginally better than returning him to your hand (for 1 less mana, too). Cryptic is of course very good, but I wonder if it belongs in a deck that's trying to chain spells. Probably as a 1-2 of for Snapcaster.
The problem is obviously that we can't be too all-in on TITI. I think some back-up plan involving manlands, Snapcaster, and burn seems good, or if we're on Esper, manlands and some high CMC Angelic beaters.