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  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from zulama »
    @pizzap, thanks for the tip.
    So with the addition of Prized Amalgam does that mean that the Jund version of this deck is going to be obsolete? or is the jund version just going to run with 4 colors.


    No, with the addition of Insolent Neonate the blue version is obsolete. You don't even need to play U sources to run Amalgam.

    Also if anyone has Ari Lax's modern dredge list I would highly appreciate them sharing it here / PMing it to me. Thanks.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Tempo in the Ice - The Return of Mono Blue Tempo (No Ninjas, No Bears, No Delvers)
    I'd caution throwing out advice like this when you clearly haven't tested the deck at all. 4 Cryptics is not a lot in a deck with 15 cantrips and Snaps to recur those cantrips - you hit land drops very quickly because the velocity of the deck is much higher than other decks and is why we don't consider Mana Leak (doesn't cantrip). Without PLENTY of access to Cryptic this deck simply can't compete in the later game at all. Many games are won or lost over being able to abuse Cryptic's power.

    Psionic Blast rules. It's unexpected, it's 4 damage as removal or to the dome, and it fits on curve at the 3cmc spot for shoal. SUPER important here.

    4 Dimensional Infiltrators - and really having 14 creature based threats - is essential because the deck is so threat light. I've experimented with going lower than 14 and sometimes you just can't get damage in.

    4 Snags are a lot. I'll go to three and cut for a probe at least to test for a while.


    Where are the 15 cantrips you're talking about? Are you counting Cryptic Command, a spell that costs 4 CMC, as a cantrip? Seriously?

    The 4th Git-Probe is tailor-made for this deck. I don't have to test it to know that because it's obvious. It's the most synergistic card with TITI in the entire deck, even more so than Snapcaster, since you actually have to flip TITI for Snaps to be super synergistic. It's just a no-brainer to play it. Sorry for being harsh, but it's the truth.

    The rest of the deck is cool. I'd also note Dimensional Infiltrator's anti-synergy with Disrupting Shoal as another reason to cut 1. If you think it's so great, fine, but honestly I doubt a deck like this needs a full 14 threats if you're playing what you call "16 Cantrips". And is Dimensional Infiltrator even a real "threat"? Sort of, only.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Tempo in the Ice - The Return of Mono Blue Tempo (No Ninjas, No Bears, No Delvers)
    Cut a Cryptic Command. 4 is way too many in a deck playing 20 lands.

    Or a Dimensional Infiltrator. They're good, but they're not as good as you say they are.

    Or a Vapor Snag. 4 IS a lot.

    Or a Psionic Blast. They're not that great, either.

    Or play the 61st card.

    Remember, even though you don't necessarily need to flip TITI for him to be threatening, you do need to remove some counters ASAP. And Probe remains the simplest way to do that.

    Just do it!!
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Tempo in the Ice - The Return of Mono Blue Tempo (No Ninjas, No Bears, No Delvers)
    I can't fathom why you're not playing the fourth Gitaxian Probe in a deck like this. As Shia LeBeouf says, "Just do it!!"
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from creamy99 »
    I've used both. Zombie is easier on the mana, but Rats is a nice way to pinch your opponents hand. The reason we've been liking Prized Amalgam is that it requires zero mana to bring back at eot. Whether we get a Bloodghast trigger, Vengevine trigger, or cast a Crawler, it always comes back for for free and doesn't get exiled at eot unless it gets pathed or something similar. So once it comes back, you have a 3/3 the following turn that can block and can trigger Vengevine by having a zombie in play for the Gravecrawlers.

    Amalgam replaced Dregscape Zombie and Rotting Rats in my current list from the older version. The consistency has been so much higher. Plus I can use them more than once! Especially if you manage to get multiple triggers Smile


    I don't see Amalgam as a Rats or Dregscape replacement. Rats, Dregscape, and Bloodghast all serve as ways to put Amalgam into play (along with the far more conditional Vengevines and Gravecrawlers). When you're just dredging and have nothing in your hand, you need to hit Life from the Loam or a creature like Rats/Dregscape to restart the chain. That's why I play some number of them.

    I'm happy about having cut my delve creatures, Wayfinders, Salvages. This is my current, insanely consistent and fast list:



    Edit: I just had 2 Vengevines, a Gravecrawler, a Bloodghast, and an Amalgam out on t2. This probably proves my point of this version being quite fast.
    EditEdit: The next game the same thing happened with a completely different line of play, only now I got 2 Gravecrawlers. I'm very happy about the new additions to our deck!


    I see we've arrived at similar lists. I play 10 dredgers at this point (4 GGT, 4 Stinkweed, 2 Loam) and I find I'm also fairly consistent. My mana is also similar to yours, but I'm playing more fetches and no Copperline Gorges, as well as a 1-of Watery Grave, on the off-chance I need to hardcast Amalgam (this has never come up though, but then again, on Cockatrice I'm not usually up against really serious grave hate). I play no removal MD, which I feel is usually correct, as it's better to just overrun with creatures and too often Lightning Axe/Darkblast/Sinister Concoction just sit around feeling inferior to Looting, Neonate, and Lotleth. And I've come to feel that Loam and Rats (or Dregscape) are important in this deck, as enablers that also work as engines (Loam as an extra dredger, Rats as a way to bin something). Of course I play a lot of removal in the board (3 Concoction and 2 Darkblast, as well as Thoughtseizes) so I feel somewhat equipped to handle Scavenging Ooze.

    However I haven't tested much against Jund and Junk yet, as almost no one plays them on Cockatrice. When I do perhaps I'll see plenty of reason for playing Lightning Axe/Sinister Concoction main. I just think they're less efficient options in a vacuum.

    Also the list is insanely powerful, as you said - I frequently I have 5+ creatures in play at the end of turn 2. Not every game, of course, but it happens. That's the best plan against Scooze, but obviously not one we can count on every time.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredge from Below
    I came across an interesting build of this deck on Cockatrice a little while back. It was very all-in, playing Burning Inquiry, Faithless Looting and Tormenting Voice (I think Insolent Neonate might have a place in new versions, as well). Then it would bring back Blooghasts, Crawlers, and Narcomeobas. What made it good was that it played white for Lingering Souls and Rally the Peasants. Rally the Peasants is a cool find: it turns a board of 1/1s and 2/1s into something very threatening. Then it played Bridge for, I assume, security against removal.

    Have you guys tested something like that?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Huh, I thought it was swinging with several 4/3, 3/3, and 2/1 creatures on turn 3. But yes we're pretty strong against most removal as well.

    I think Rotting Rats is a great way to restart the chain, along with Loam, if you're going for a dredge-focused version. For Rats, all you need is 4 mana and 2 crawlers, and you can bring back Vines; with just Rats alone, you can bring back Amalgam and then bring back Crawlers next turn. I am considering testing Dregscape Zombie instead of rats, because it's cheaper - but so much worse on it's own.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Hmm. I do prefer to have basically almost nothing in hand after turn 2/3 except lands to recur Bloodghast. But that's just a difference between our builds.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Colt47 »
    A lot of cards that are good for dredge from SoI were probably built with delirium and madness in mind. My guess is that Insolent Neonate is meant to be played and then sacrificed in order to get a land into the graveyard along with a creature, or to be an enabler for a madness trigger. Also, being on the receiving end of an Angler beat down I definitely like the idea of having it over Neonate. The only part about angler that is somewhat disadvantageous is the lack of trample, flying (A giant flying zombie angler fish... that could give people nightmares), or something else to over-run chump blockers.

    Also, looked at Ghoulsteed and Stitchwing Skaab and I'm very interested in seeing how people elsewhere incorporate them into their deck building. They look like they are meant for a different deck than dredgevine.


    Sorry for the double post, I didn't see this before.

    Skaab and Ghoulsteed are amazingly slow; I've already tested Ghoulsteed and quickly dismissed it. I also played against a Skaab list and was not impressed. It's nice if you can get it in the yard on T1, but you have how many ways of doing that - 8? That's not enough to be consistent.

    It doesn't matter what Neonate was intended to do by WotC. You can bet that Flash didn't do what it was intended to do, and neither did Summer Bloom or an endless list of other broken cards.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from creamy99 »
    Quote from LMental »
    Creamy -

    Ok, fair points, that all makes sense to me. I see what you're saying about Angler being a more stable, consistent threat that provides late/mid-game power. And it is true Neonate is most valuable in the first two turns (and if everything goes according to plan, you shouldn't do anything but dredge from turn 2 on, so you won't risk topdecking a Neonate ever).

    I guess I just look at it differently. If you want to play Angler, is this really the deck most set up to abuse him? I mean, we can be a decent midrange deck - and clearly, we already are. But Jund and Junk are already using Tasigur and Murderous Cut to great effect; you don't need to build a deck around these cards. I mean I get that Angler is synergistic with Vengevine, but at the same time, it forces us to play a more midrange, grindier game, and to be less explosive. It's still quite vulnerable to grave hate and it still often can't come down till turn 3 - and nukes your graveyard in doing so.

    I also think you're underselling the power of Neonate. With 4 Looting and 4 Lotleth, you're going to be wanting for discard outlets more than you think (and enjoy hardcasting Prized Amalgam). Neonate allows insane second turns. He allows us to play like Legacy Dredge, the deck I'm trying to model my list after. Yes, he makes us a bit swingier. I'm willing to admit my build isn't perfect and may indeed be worse than yours; I've tested it less than you have yours, of course. But I guess I just think that if we're not trying to fully abuse the new cards we're getting, then we're just going to remain a tier 2, tier 3 deck. A neonate list - especially with the absence of Twin, and once Eldrazi is gone - has the opportunity to be tuned to be extremely explosive, with SB answers for a lot of problem cards.

    I'm not saying Angler has no place in such a list, either - I just haven't found that place, yet.
    All valid points. I myself have zero legacy dredge experience, since my wallet can't handle Legacy prices. Student loans and rent prohibit that Smile

    I don't really consider him to be midrange. Most midrange decks cast one threat per turn and curve out nicely...Junk and Jund cast Goyf, Rhino, Bob, Smiter, etc. We slam our entire hand on turn 3 and recur the graveyard. That makes us an aggro deck. Anything over 2 CMC we cheat into play or abuse its mechanic. Typically, when I'm casting Angler, I cast at least another creature when I do so, whether it be a 2 drop or a Gravecrawler from the yard. I try to make sure approximately half of my creatures are zombies, so I draw more than two per game. It helps with consistency.

    I believe 15 of my creatures are zombies, so that's half. It will be about 60% once I trim down creatures for the new meta. That will allow for a ton of graveyard recursion. My zombies are 4 Crawler, 4 Troll, 3 Amalgam and 3 Angler.


    Yes, I'm playing 14 zombies as well: 4 Crawler, 4 Troll, 4 Amalgam and 2 Rotting Rats. The chain is usually Bloodghast -> Amalgam -> Double Crawler -> Vine.

    I may test your list one of these days!

    I can see what you mean about Angler being an aggro card here. And it is a powerful one, for sure.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Creamy -

    Ok, fair points, that all makes sense to me. I see what you're saying about Angler being a more stable, consistent threat that provides late/mid-game power. And it is true Neonate is most valuable in the first two turns (and if everything goes according to plan, you shouldn't do anything but dredge from turn 2 on, so you won't risk topdecking a Neonate ever).

    I guess I just look at it differently. If you want to play Angler, is this really the deck most set up to abuse him? I mean, we can be a decent midrange deck - and clearly, we already are. But Jund and Junk are already using Tasigur and Murderous Cut to great effect; you don't need to build a deck around these cards. I mean I get that Angler is synergistic with Vengevine, but at the same time, it forces us to play a more midrange, grindier game, and to be less explosive. It's still quite vulnerable to grave hate and it still often can't come down till turn 3 - and nukes your graveyard in doing so.

    I also think you're underselling the power of Neonate. With 4 Looting and 4 Lotleth, you're going to be wanting for discard outlets more than you think (and enjoy hardcasting Prized Amalgam). Neonate allows insane second turns. He allows us to play like Legacy Dredge, the deck I'm trying to model my list after. Yes, he makes us a bit swingier. I'm willing to admit my build isn't perfect and may indeed be worse than yours; I've tested it less than you have yours, of course. But I guess I just think that if we're not trying to fully abuse the new cards we're getting, then we're just going to remain a tier 2, tier 3 deck. A neonate list - especially with the absence of Twin, and once Eldrazi is gone - has the opportunity to be tuned to be extremely explosive, with SB answers for a lot of problem cards.

    I'm not saying Angler has no place in such a list, either - I just haven't found that place, yet.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from creamy99 »
    Quote from Colt47 »
    I posted the thoughts I had over in the budget section. Mostly, I'm kind of surprised by Holdout Settlement for mana fixing. Normally I hate tapping down creatures, but since we basically have zero defenders anyway and summoning sickness floating around most of the time (at least from my dry runs online), the drawbacks of the land don't have a lot of impact. Still wouldn't play it as more than a 2 of as it doesn't work turn 1.

    That and the new SoI lands aren't bad for budget fast lands, either. Only issue is the consistency hit.
    I started off on a budget. Lands were my last focus because of the price of some of the pieces. You definitely need lands to make the deck work, but checklands are a few dollars are a good way to start a manabase that doesn't rip apart your paychecks.

    Also, my current list:


    Is there a reason you aren't playing Insolent Neonate? You dismissed it quite harshly before and gave literally no explanation.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Shadows Over Innistrad in Modern - Spoiler Discussion
    My (possibly incomplete) list of cards that are interesting and/or strong from SoI:

    Insolent Neonate: Modern gets a better Hapless Researcher. It will go in Dredge and make that deck significantly better. Maybe still not tier 2, but maybe.

    Prized Amalgam: This is the other big hit for Dredge from SoI. Combined with Neonate, Dredge can now play a more Legacy-style game with lots of dredgers. It'll be more explosive, a little more swingy, more vulnerable to grave hate, and much more powerful than current incarnations of the deck.

    Declaration in Stone: I can see it as a 1-2 of in some control decks. The drawback isn't prohibitive and the effect is powerful.

    Eerie Interlude: It's a better Ghostway, but then who played Ghostway? I doubt this will make a splash but I'm sure someone will try it out.

    Expose Evil and Thraben Inspector: They will be tested in a UWR Shape Anew deck. That deck, I predict, will not be good enough to fill the void Twin left.

    Thalia's Lieutenant: Combined with Noble Hierarch, Champion of the Parrish, Mayor of Avabruck, Knight of the Reliquary and even perhaps Aether Vial or Collected Company, I can see a Humans deck having legs. I'd be interested in staying away from Collected Company, for which I feel there are already better uses, and playing Aether Vial in combination with Retreat to Coralhelm and Weathered Wayfarer.

    Invasive Surgery: Awesome sideboard card against Scapeshift. Will probably see play in Legacy; I'd think it should in Modern, too.

    Pieces of the Puzzle: Seems to have a shot in UWR, Scapeshift or some janky brew. A strong effect.

    Rattlechains: Reasonably strong with existing Spirits such as Drogskol Captain. Still, Spirits will not be good enough to be a deck.

    Topplegeist: Another spirit that will push a Spirit-themed deck to the brink of playability. Ultimately, though, I feel that deck is still probably worse than just UWR Geist or Geist + Zur.

    Thing in the Ice: It's too powerful not to see play somewhere. Perhaps in UWR Control, replacing Wall of Omens. Definitely a card to watch.

    Asylum Visitor: Another extremely powerful card from SoI. It doesn't replace Confidant, but I can see it having a place along Bob in some Jund builds. Plus, it'll be a build-around-me effect for a long time to come. Even if no one breaks it yet, I expect this card to become a role-player at some point.

    Diregraf Colossus: Looks strong in a Zombies brew. Even with Relentless Dead, I don't think that brew has legs yet, but it's getting there for sure.

    Relentless Dead: See above, but I'd like to add that the reason I don't think Zombies has legs is that there still aren't enough good zombies. You have Relentless Dead, Diregraf Colossus, Gravecrawler, Death Baron, and then...Gray Merchant of Asphodel? Please, no. I can see Relentless Dead finding a home in some other deck, however. Not sure where though.

    Heir of Falkenrath: A strong 2-drop that combos with Asylum Visitor. What's not to like? Whether it will see play is a different question, though, and I'm betting no unless some powerful new vampires are spoiled or a UBx Delver Deck actually becomes good.

    To the Slaughter: Jund sideboards rejoice! This will make a splash everywhere from Jund to GWB to WB Tokens.

    Archangel Avacyn: This is probably the best finisher UWR has right now, aside from just swinging with Celestial Colonnades. Whether it will see play is up in the air for me, but I can see it as a good one-of for sure.

    Geistblast: A unique effect that is probably too expensive to find a home. Still, one to keep an eye on.

    Skin Invasion: It's not delver, but it's still strong. People will try it out. I can't say if it'll work or not.

    Crawling Sensation: A cool card that slots into Jund or Junk as a one-of, and can also be more "build-around-me".

    Deathcap Cultivator: An overpriced accelerator that doubles as credible defense late game. Will perhaps pop up somewhere.

    Traverse the Ulvenwald: It's less broken than people think but I can see it finding it's way into Jund or Junk as a 1 or 2 of. Early game it fixes mana, late game it grabs Goyf. Ups if you can brew it with Snapcaster too (perhaps UBG?). I think people are a little too focused on turning Delirium on - tutoring for a creature isn't worth messing up your whole deck to do.

    Anguished Unmaking: Will go into Tokens at least as an answer to obnoxious stuff. I think the lifeloss will be more than Junk wants to handle.

    Arlinn Kord: This walker is interesting. I can see her as a 1-of in Jund. The +0 is strong, and the flip's -1 is good too. The +1s of the flip version and of Arlinn both stink. The -6 is also nothing special. But alternating between the +0 and -1 till Arlinn dies seems decent.

    Invocation to Saint Traft: Will be tried in Zur decks, which are still not very good decks.

    Sigarda, Heron's Grace: Still worse than old Sigarda, so, no.

    The Gitrog Monster: People will brew with it, but unfortunately there's no easy way to win once you go off. I'd stick to reanimating Griselbrand myself. Perhaps it could make its way into a Modern version of aggro loam, though, that would play this, Loam, Zombie Infestation, Seismic Assault and/or Molten Vortex, Faithless Looting, Magmatic Insight, and so on. But maybe that deck doesn't want a 5-drop...

    Brain in a Jar: Someone told me this was going in Griselbrand reanimator. It looks solid as a way to rip through your deck, but it is slow. Perhaps as a 1-2 of.

    Westvale Abbey: A cool card for Tokens. Is it better than Windbrisk Heights? Time will tell.

    Now I can come back to this later and see how wrong I was...



    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    One thing I realised after testing with Neonate: if you can discard a dredger -> insane. If you can't -> very underwhelming. I still like it more than the 2-mana enablers, Salvage and Wayfinder, but it does sound much better than it is. I'll test more and see if hitting dredgers t1 is more likely than it seems after the couple of games I played.


    One more thing @Killer_Manfred: Neonate also enables T2 Vine with Neonate -> Discard Vine -> Gravecrawler. Maybe it's not the optimal use of Neonate, but it's still powerful and still happens frequently.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Salatape »
    What are peoples thoughts on the other Dredge deck with Zombie Infestation?

    Sample List


    It's a cool deck but it can't take advantage of new cards like Insolent Neonate and Prized Amalgam. Those cards are really powerful and I want to test them out, because neither Infestation Dredge or Dredgevine has been good enough to put up consistent top 8s without them. Maybe now things will change, as they enable a more Legacy-lite style for the deck.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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