MTG Salvation

Has anyone looked at Sram's Expertise as a replacement to Spectral Procession?

A few new cards I'm very excited about out of the next set are Kari Zev, Skyship Captain, Metallic Mimic, and Kari Zev's Expertise. I think this is the list I'm probably going to try once they become available on MTGO.



I like this because it lowers the curve a lot, adds another anthem like affect as well as another really good beater that benefits a LOT from the anthems. Also, it means that Expertise can cast everything in the deck and even remove a blocker AND add a beater to finish out games faster. I think this is going to be pretty good.

Quote from kingcars »

Here's a budget version of a GW Humans list I've been running:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures (30) 4 Champion of the Parish 4 Warden of the First Tree 3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros 4 Thraben Inspector 3 Student of Warfare 4 Thalia's Lieutenant 4 Mayor of Avabruck 2 Hamlet Captain 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben	Spells (10) 4 Gather the Townsfolk 4 Path to Exile 2 Blossoming Defense Lands (20) 4 Temple Garden 4 Sunpetal Grove 4 Windswept Heath 3 Forest 5 Plains	Sideboard 2 Kataki, War's Wage 3 Gaddock Teeg 3 Kor Firewalker 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 3 Rest in Peace 2 Natural State

Why wait for 3 mana when you've got everything you need at 1 and 2 cmc? You get 2 extra lords in Mayor of Avabruck and Hamlet Captain, you've got mid/late game sustainability with Warden of the First Tree, a card which is also fine in the early game as an extra beater. All this along with the usual Humans suspects and you've got a fast, consistent, resilient aggro deck. I've been very happy with it.

This list is about 105 tix on MTGO and can be made cheaper by replacing the fetches. In paper, the mana base would need to be further simplified and maybe some other concessions depending on budget. Some later upgrades would be things like Cavern of Souls and Auriok Champion.

Full disclosure: Green is my least favorite color in magic but a WIDE margin. Some part of my choice to go red was bias because my absolute favorite color in magic is red lol.

That said, if I'm playing aggro, especially in Modern, I'm probably not going to do it without Lightning Bolt. Reach + removal is everything an aggro list wants. Also, access to haste makes a much bigger difference than most people think. Also, red gives you access to Lightning Mauler which produces several reliable 4 damage on turn 2 plays. The deck plays out really fast to try and get under decks like Jund and Scapeshift. Even if a deck is resilient, what control deck exists in the format to test or require that? I feel like speed is more important in this format especially if you consider that the hyper fast decks of the format like Infect and Zoo don't care about your resilience because they are just going to trample over you anyway.

Quote from Wes0SPECTRALself »

So been playing around with this deck for a few days. I'm here looking for your suggestions trying to better the list.
I have a feeling I will probably write a primer for this once the list is complete.

so here you go.

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
CREATURES 4 Delver of Secrets 4 Phantasmal Bear 3 Augury Owl 4 Judge's Familiar 4 Ninja of the Deep Hours	INSTANTS AND SORCERIES 4 Psionic Blast 4 Mana Leak 4 Serum Visions 4 Familiar's Ruse 4 Vapor Snag	LANDS 21 Islands

Having a bit of an issue with closing the game out. So pick the list apart and give me your suggestions.

Maybe spire golem?

stay budget, stay blue.

I love this deck but I had a similar experience when I played it. I eventually ended up making a ton of changes to it. Here is something closer to where I ended up.



I love Shorecrasher Elemental. Its actually a very good finisher for a tempo deck like this. It can hit very hard and finish out a game in a couple of turns. Its also pretty hard to remove. The biggest complaint I have is that its kind of mana intensive. This deck wants to hold open mana for counters and stuff too so its not really a big deal to keep a couple mana open to flip it or hold up a counterspell. The problem is that its really hard to resist pumping it as much as you can lol. That's kind of why I like Stratus Dancer too though. Once you get to about 5 mana though its not so bad. Stratus Dancer protects itself and your other creatures and basically carries the same body as Delver. Its also just a 2/1 Flyer so that's nice in a pinch.

I know Remand is hard on a budget but its SO worth it. It really makes the deck better and being able to stave off an opponent's plays until you can get Dancer down to flip or leak is clutch.

Reality Shift is one of the most under appreciated cards ever printed. It is an incredible sideboard card to stop creatures that you really just need to be dead. The exile aspect is really nice against Dredge and even Wurmcoil Engine and the 2/2 often is irrelevant especially when trying to match up against the Elemental.

I tried Familiar's Ruse and its cute with things like Spellstutter Sprite and Faerie Miscreant but having to pick up a creature to cast it is often such a huge tempo lost that its not worth it. Deprive, with enough lands, is probably the better option out of the two.

I'll have to check the rest of my list when I get home. I think there are some interesting new choices available from the last couple of sets but I can't think of what they are off the top of my head.

Wharf Infiltrator could be really good here potentially.

I love Kari Zev, Skyship Raider as well. I think if I were going to do it then I would probably go with Warstorm Surge, Impact Tremors, Purphoros back up plan but would focus on kind of a low to the ground aggro deck. I know aggro isn't very good in EDH but you could probably have some fun with it.

Things like Goblin Bombardment, Furnace Celebration, Outpost Siege, and Collateral Damage could help gain additional value out of the token that's going to die anyway.

Silver-Inlaid Dagger, Hero's Blade, Tenza, Godo's Maul, etc. would help with pumping her stats so she can survive combat. First Strike and Menace makes her crazy in combat too with even a little bit of a boost to her stats she can get nuts.

Of course, if you manage to build in some good sac outlets (Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment) to take advantage of the Monkey, they would also work really well with other Threaten (Kari Zev's Expertise, Zealous Conscripts, Molten Primordial, Conquering Manticore) effects.

I personally like Lazav, Dimir Mastermind for this kind of deck. I mean you lose red which I guess kind of sucks but all of the best things are in U/B anyway.

I love cards like Spelltwine, Sepulchral Primordial, Dilluvian Primordial, Jace's Mindseeker, etc. I remember Spelltwine hitting an opposing Spelltwine to hit a recurssion card to get back my Sepulchral Primordial to hit an opposing Dilluvian Primordial to grab a Rite of Replication. It was the freaking nuts. I ended up casting like 1 spell (Spelltwine) and got like, god, I don't know, like 50cmc worth of cards? lol so cool.

Lazav is fun because he straight copies any creature that dies which is nice because, honestly, activated abilities aren't usually super relevant in any EDH game I've ever played. However things like Trample, Flying, Vigilant, and a decent body are nice. Being able to Murder some 7/7 flying demon only for Lazav to become that demon and go on the Voltron beat down is super fun. That's actually how I've built my Lazav deck.

Its essentially a Voltron deck that uses control elements (Grisly Spectacle, Psychic Strike) spells to get things into the 'yard for Lazav to copy and the theft spells for mana efficient value. Its honestly probably my most favorite deck to play. Its not oppressive and it wins in fairly unconventional ways. I can't recommend it enough.

Quote from DirkGently »

Quote from lyonhaert »

I don't remember him having that many of the 3/1s, so either he didn't have his commander in play enough or he was sacrificing those to Attrition as well to keep the board totally clear. He could have also been mana screwed somehow. It's also possible that the skeleton was the recurring creature that appeared later and the first one was one of the cockroaches or Nether Traiter. I am a little bit fuzzy on the details since it was a couple years ago.

Edit: I do remember now he lost the first recurring creature to a well-timed Rakdos Charm from another player.

So...run enchantment removal?

On that note, personally I hate decks that don't have ways to react to enemy plays. No removal, no counters, just 100% focused on doing their own thing and hoping it kills everyone else before someone else does the same. Trying to police multiple players at once while no one else contributes can be pretty frustrating.

Oh god, to that end, being the only player at the table that has answers. I've played online several times where we were facing some kind of token generation deck like Sek'Kuar or something like that and everyone at the table is like "Isn't someone going to do something about him?" I'm thinking, uh well, why can't you? I help a sweeper in my hand until I became the target just to increase the pain on my opponents. Serves you right for building your deck so poorly.

The problem is that one person can't run four peoples worth of answers and so we all eventually lost anyway because I was the only one to play any removal that game. I typically run 4 sweepers and 7 targeted removal. In that game I used 3 of my sweepers and 4 targeted removal all trying to keep the same player in check. I think I saw one other removal spell that game between the 3 of them.

Quote from mordekai47 »

This is the version I played last:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
//Lands 4 Barren Moor 19 Swamp 4 Ravenous Rats 4 Gurmag Angler 4 Liliana's Specter 2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi 4 Chittering Rats 3 Phyrexian Rager	4 Geth's Verdict 4 Victim of Night 1 Death Denied 2 Tendrils of Corruption 1 Corrupt 4 Sign in Blood	//Sideboard 3 Distress 4 Duress 4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel 2 Faceless Butcher 2 Faerie Macabre

I used to get wrecked by the Okiba-Gang Shinobi, but somehow I can't get too much value out of it when I play it with Ninjutsu. It feels like such a slow and methodical deck.

Ok, here's what I think:

Ravenous Rats doesn't really add anything. It's too small with its 1 power, and most of the time it's the Phyrexian Ragers and Chittering Rats that do the beatdown.

Specter is sort of the same because of how fragile it is, but it does allow for better chance at Ninjutsu.

Removal is hit-or-miss. Sometimes I wish I had Disfigure, sometimes I wish I had the other.

Tendrils and Corrupt feel so powerful when you get to cast it, but they can be easily countered or played around.

Overall, I fell that this deck is too slow now. Or am I playing the wrong version?

Its too slow if you aren't playing Gary in the main. Honestly, he is the whole reason to even play mono-B. Chaining Gary's together is the way this deck wins. It can come out of nowhere and come from behind and secure victories like no other. Without Gary, the deck just doesn't have the reach or longevity necessary to pull out the wins. AND! Gary works really well with Okiba Gang because people will often block the biggest threat (Angler usually) which let's Gary through so you can Ninjitsu it maddening about of value.

For decks like this I like cards like Swift Warkite, Crypt Champion, and Driver of the Dead. Austere Command is another good one.

Recurring those little doods is a lot of value when you can staple it onto another body.

The Command Zone Podcast does an episode all about how to speed up your turns for just this reason. I think typically, unless the board state is very complex, if someone complains that you are taking too long its because you probably are. I hate saying that because I know that I'm often the person who is taking too long and I don't even think I take unusually long turns. In fact I think they are very average but that said I've still found ways to speed up my play by changing the way I sac, tutor, draw, etc. I will declare my actions and pass or whatever if that's what it takes.

Honestly, taking faster turns in some cases has cost me games I think I should have won. That really sucks but I think overall its worth it.

Quote from egg_chen »

Sure Live/Die can get there but you'd have to play two copies of Live, prior to playing one Die to make that happen. That is very inefficient.

Personally I think there are better options even than RtB and GoD, but, those are direct replacements which outshine the Live/Die Combo, and they are not dependent upon getting the proper sequencing.

While Scavenger can recur rages and chits, it's cant return Gary, like Gravedigger or Ghoulcaller can. Those are more mana efficient, and in a pinch you can recur gravediggers over and over again. YMMV of course and I love to see people using the newer cards. I play a lot of standard pauper and Scavenger/Rats is sweet there. Just not sure if it's worth diluting your deck with 2 mana 2/1's and a more expensive 5 mana creature that competes at the mana slot as the main card in your deck. Devotion and removing black mana symbols from play just kind of but heads.

The way I usually play out Live/Die is I will use early copies of Die on x/1s to save up left over Energy. I will use Victim for creatures Die can't hit early. After a couple copies of Live I usually have enough energy for any left over copies of Die to start hitting bigger things as well. Its all about play sequencing.

I understand where you are coming from but I will say that in play it works out better than you are imagining. For scavenger, its the versatility that really sets it over the edge because it can be a beater but it can also recur other cards. Sure it can't get Gary but often if you have it then you don't always need Gary either. I replaced Angler with Scavenger and there have been more than a few occasions where Scavenger was able to win games Angler never would have. Oddly, Scavenger rewards you for having several pips on the board like Gary does. Because Scavenger has an anthem AND grants Menace to your team (once flipped) it also encourages you to have a lot of creatures on board. And it has an ability that helps make that happen. Gary also likes a lot of creatures on board for the pips. So they both want the same thing but for different reasons.

I'm not saying its strictly better than the prior builds of the deck but I think it warrants testing. For be its been very resilient and draws a TON of cards. Its rare to have fewer than 5 cards in hand with 12 draw spells in the deck, and 3 ways to get a few of those back PLUS the cycle lands as well. The deck digs extremely well and sees tons of cards and the synergy of each of them works pretty well.

Quote from egg_chen »

I'd play Read the Bones and Grasp of Darkness over the whole Live Fast/Die Young thing. Rate and Scavenger also seem to conflict with the whole Devotion play of "Gary."

Live/Die can combine together to hit things bigger than Grasp can hit on its own.

Scavenger can help Gary because he can fetch dead Chittering Rats and Phyrexian Ragers in the absence of Graf Rats to reestablish some devotion. Also, they kind of operate as Gary 5-7 because it can drop difficult to block damage onto the field.

I've been playing this:



Its surprisingly versatile. The large amount of mana means never screwed. The cycle lands help flooding. You have 12 main board draw effects, not counting the cycle lands, to dig through the deck. Die Young/Live Fast are an experiment right now as a way to get another "unconditional" kill spell. Its always at LEAST as good as Disfigure for 1 more mana and occasionally much better.

I love Midnight Scavengers. Its able to grab more card draw (Rager), hand disruption (Rats), or just more blockers/aggression (Other Rats) and acts as a source of card advantage. If they aren't dealt with then Melding them is a nice bonus and presents a very real threat that can't easily be chumped. It also has haste which means it swings that turn, also something Angler can't do.

So far I've only played against other rogue brews but I've crushed them in a pretty unfair manner. The deck just draws so many dang cards. I would say the one major weakness is that the deck loses a ton of life to itself. I would make sure to have some pretty easy life gain in the board for Burn. Against creature based aggro all the removal is usually enough to stabilize then win.

Graveyard shennigans are one of the most powerful things you can do in Magic. Just look at the competitive scene. Dredge is one of the most bonkers mechanics ever invented. In Modern alone there are two competitive decks that use the graveyard as their primary source of win (Dredge and Living End) but a lot more (like Grixis Delver, Ad Naseum, Storm) utilize the graveyard for value and they aren't even considered Graveyard decks! Exile has become an extremely necessary mechanic. In Commander especially its necessary to have more mass exile because of certain combos like Darksteel Forge + Mycosynth Lattice or Crystaline Sliver + Sliver Overlord that basically become "race or lose" without a mass Exile sweeper.

@ Darkeshrine: I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment RE: Doran. Doran is strong but the interaction between Sidar and Ikra isn't on a Voltron strategy. Sidar + Assualt Formation or Doran makes all of your 0/5 (or whatever) defenders into 5/5 unblockables. When you add in Ikra those are 5/5, 7/7 or whatever Unblockable Lifelinkers....How is that not ridiculously powerful? At the very least it makes it seriously worth considering as an alternative to just running Doran himself since having access to making your guys Unblockable Lifelink from the Command Zone is pretty good.

Quote from Rogomatic »

No.

Because that's helpful.