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  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    No they cannot.

    first you declare if it resolves, if it does, then you sac your lands in response and pass priority. Remember, they've already chose that Balanced resolved. They cannot interact with it. They can respond the sacing of lands, or the casting of Gargadon. But they can't back up and say "No wait a minute, I don't want balance to resolve" because if they did you would be allowed to take back the saccing of your lands.
    If I recall correctly, and this is the first time I've thought about it it goes like this
    P1: I cast Restore Balance, does it resolve (passing priority to 2nd player)
    P2: I will let is resolve
    P1: Okay, in response to resolving, I sac X lands to GG, any response
    P2: (Either fetch to keep 1 land post resolution, dig spell, etc)
    Restore Balance finishes resolving, checks all the lands, hands, and creatures, GG comes off the stack afterwards, anything the opponent does resolve.

    The one problem I've had with ED, and maybe you can tell me how your find it. is that you need both spells in your hand. Whereas cascade version you just need a cascade spell. I've felt that ED is searching hard to assembling and hoping you can before turn 5.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    The one thing I think people forget, is that even with a new deck with electrodomiance, or even the existing shell we are still a bit of a fringe deck. Our combo, while strong, is very easy to distrupt either we focus on Electro and build around to protect the combo, but doing that makes our combo weaker and harder to get since we aren't running posts, we can't instantly go off unless we have both cards in our hands , and even then a simple remand sets us back many turns. Sure we can suspend, but that is a long 6 turns. Even with the post version, with cascade at instant speed we aren't too reliant on our hand so discard is less effective than it would be in the electro version. but that means we can't pack the response cards we see in the Electro lists. We also fold a lot more since we're reliant on cascade and the more balances we have in hand, the worse off we are.

    That isn't to say both lists don't have work arounds, packing As Foretolds helps get them out our hands, but that's a very hot target the opponent will focus down.

    I don't think there isn't any "bad" cards for this deck. Because we don't have an official list, nor do both versions have any greater edge than the other, I think if some people have found success with certain cards, they should show us their match ups, their experience, and their opinion why it is in over other cards with the same effect/similar effect. Are there bad cards? Absolutely. But it depends on the level of competivness you're playing at. I'm sure there are changes I can make to my deck, but I only play my friends or my LGS once a year. So it doesn't need an overhaul unless I take to a tournament.

    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    I've found the cascade version to be a bit more consistant that Electro. Mainly for the reasons you've listed.

    One way I've played around artifact hate, is to never play them in G2. I usually lean into a more heavy hand of lands/fetches for slower but less set back turns, not if I can ever afford 4 Prismatic Vista we can easily boost our mana base against such matchups since we'll be able to (or at least myself) play our basics way faster to pump out the posts way faster too.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance

    So the only thing I found, when I played the very early version of the deck, The one back on page 1. I found being so hyper aggresive leaves you so vulnerable to everything else. The reason, as mentioned by vikingtraders, is that other combo decks can still protect/interact with the opponent. Restore balance only interacts with Restore balance. I like the hyper style you're going for, but I don't know if that is a viable option these days. Often times 1 balance isn't enough to seal games. Boggles, Affinity, Harden Scales (green affinity), and even Tron can rebound so quickly against us that wiping them constantly is our only way. But if you've blown through your gargadons, Brains, and even balances what else do you do.

    Again, this is all dependant on your meta and your play style.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    @SunTzu --
    So is the whole point of your deck ideas to run artifacts to purely feed Gargadon? How do you respond to threats or interact. Again, Brain in a Jar doesn't work with its ability UNLESS you have a way to sac it reliably. With only 4 Gargadons as your sac outlet you run that risk you won't be able to use it and even then it's a once time effect that is a less than okay parlor trick.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    So there is a lot to cover in this question, I'll try to answer them all, and this is all based on factors such as my personal play group of friends, their suggestions, my local LGS, my own personal play testing, and what I wanted the deck to do.

    @Loki why only 3 gargadon in your list? Surely you need 4 so you can kill all your lands when you balance so they don't stabilize.

    So I dropped down to 3 Gargadons because I found I was always starting with 1-2 in my opening hands very often, I'd say on average 6 hands I'd have 2 gargadons. This hurts my opener because they would clutter a hand and I was always wishing I started with something else. While they are useful for closing the games out, I saw them more as a personal land clearer/creature clearer more than a wincon. My win con comes from resetting the board, Gideon or Nahiri. He hasn't aged well since he doesn't have any inherent trample, flying, protection. He also can get removed super easliy, and since he is a relic of a card I wanted to move onto a better style of wincon. I found he doesn't close out the game like he use to.

    And why bow of nylea? Wouldn't monastery siege or another land or the gargadon you are missing be much better?

    So Bow of Nylea comes from wanting more options to deal with threats. In my above post, I've mentioned taking out small flyers. I'd rather not constantly have to blow restore balances every time someone plays a Thopter, Freebooter, etc. Having Bow shoot them down means I can save my Balances for later more advantagous board states. It also hearlds back to an earlier card this deck played. Mistveil Plains. Having the ability to cycle up to 4 cards in the late game, whether its Balances, posts, Supreme Wills, even against stalemates, I won't mill out. Gaining life against late game burn is useful, even aginst some aggro decks. The +1/+1 counter isn't needed, but on the occasion Gargadon/Gideon does come online, getting 1 more point of damage in to seal the game. I only run 4 lands because I never wanted to have more than my opponent, and with 2 As Foretolds, I don't need a million lands to cast any card in my deck. And I never found I wanted more than 2 Sieges. Their protection buff is fine a +4, any more and it becomes super overkill. And I don't need more than 2 loot effects since I personally don't like discarding cards in tight games and I have 4 Supreme Wills.

    Do you have trouble ending the game after balance? Seems like you are very light on things to feed to gargadon before and after you balance.

    I often times do not. With such a low inherent mana base, lots of control pieces in Sieges, Spheres, Nahiri, Gideon, and Bows, once I balance they simple don't have the mana base to rebuild, or if they do they really need to delay so many turns. Again, I rarely feed gargadon. I only feed if I have excess posts, I've been Stony Silenced, or I need an emergancy blocker. Again, I use Nahiri and Gideon as my win cons. Gargadon will never leave my list, since I do need that removal aspect for this deck to take full advantage of the combo.

    That's the main reason I like the artifacts lists so much: You damn near always have perfect timings on gargadon

    What is your current list? I strayed away from as many artifacts as I could because so much hate is out there. Stony, Grudge, Vigor, Revely, and so on. Combind with so many lists able to produce blockers from nowhere, I've rarely seen openings with Gargadon. Remember, balance doesn't do Artifacts, Enchantments, or Planeswalkers. So if you have a deck that makes tokens off those, Gargadon gets stuffed or overwhelmed so many times.

    Nowso (for me) more than ever because Im tweaking the list to draw enough cards that I need. And be a tiny bit faster like with Brain in a Jar instead of As foretold

    I disagree. As Foretold is wayyy better than Brain. Brain cannot cast Restore balance off itself.
    1, T: Put a charge counter on Brain in a Jar, then you may cast an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Brain in a Jar from your hand without paying its mana cost.
    once you use this ability, the charge count will be at 1 and you cannot cast anything with less than 1 cmc. It's simple a dead card that has anti-synergy with the overall combo. Whereas As Foretold allows you cast any cmc 0 the moment you land it, so if you run out of cascade spells it in itself works in a pinch and won't reset it and allows for casting spells below its charge counter.

    If you want the deck to be faster, I reccomend the Electrodomanic version. It allows you to play any cmc card you want and in doing so can play Preodains, Opts, Search fors, etc. The cascade version will always be locked into 3+ cmc.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Quote from vikingtrader »

    @Loki - Do you find that 2x Bow of Nylea is enough lifegain for matches like Burn or UR control? I've actually considered moving back to the cascade version because you can throw in multiple Kor Firewalker/Sun Droplet into the board and side out the Balances and that will pretty much ensure they can't kill you. I ran a single Bow back when I was playing the cascade version because it was really good against Delver decks. There are still some prominent flyers that it takes care of. Curious how you're liking it.

    1. So I actually use the Monastery Sieges, Supreme Wills, and Detention Spheres against burn more than the Bow. The Bow I do use for life gain, but its primary use is to shoot down Ornithopters, Kitesail Freebooters, and Vault Skirge s and the like since I have no way of interacting with flyers unless I use Restore balance. And since a lot of decks use mini-flyers to help I've never had an issue with it. If I'm facing a deck that doesn't run any of those, I usually play if for the tuck feature to resupply against Affinity, Tron, Humans, and Boggles. Then if they start to slow down, then I use the gain life feature. I love it. I've made my deck tuned to where a lot of the cards need to pull double duty to get considered in. Bow does that well. With a not to hard casting cost of 1GG which I can produce off 8/16 posts and 1 basic. The only downside is it is weak to a lot of common removal being a artifact/enchantment plus being legendary status. It can be slow against certain decks but usually always lands and is always relevant. Again, if you need more of toolboxy style of card this is a really good one to add.

    Also, if you look at my list I post a page or so back, I don't run anything under 3cmc. I like to ensure I always hit my combo, and I hate leaving hitting the Kor Firewalkers, or any other tech piece I've hit up to chance.

    Also, have you played against Eldrazi Tron much with your list? I'd like to know how it stands up.

    2. Tron I haven't had too much issue with. Blood Moon helps, I don't run Ghost Q at all because I already have such a tiny manabase I don't have room for it. But my cascade version handles it nicely since they usually can Tron out around the same turn I can combo off. So as soon as they land Tron land 2/3 I insta-cast my casade card. It sets them back, because usually, and this is from my two friends that play the deck, they only hold 1-2 copies of other lands in their hands and then have to go back and dig for that 3rd again. And due to that, they usually hold a large hand and I don't so I force them to discard.

    I've found that if any deck is reliant on their mana base, we are super easy to beat them. Be it Scapeshift, Titan Amulet, or Tron.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Right, forgot that's how BBE works. Thanks for the update!

    The new mulligan rule does help us, also makes going down in hand size riskier since we like to keep as many cards as possible. At least for me.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Quote from vikingtrader »

    @TheGreatGodLoki - Thanks for sharing your list! Have you considered running Bloodbraid Elf? I know she's not going to consistently cascade into Balance but I did try her out before she got banned. Even if you Bloodbraid into a Siege/Gideon/D.Sphere/post it still seems pretty valuable. If you are lucky and hit an Ardent Plea though you'll be able to swing for her with 4 directly after a Balance. I've kinda wondered why no one uses her since she's been unbanned. She's complete value-town. I like your list btw, but I can tell you after playing a list very similar that if you play 2 posts on turns 1 & 2, and they get Ancient Grudge'd it's almost a guarantee that you'll lose that game. Same for Force of Vigor. They're trading 1 turn to delay you essentially 3 turns.

    @everyone - What about Crashing Footfalls? I did see in previous pages of this thread that some people are using it. It seems like a really strong turn 2 play. Especially if it's at the end of the opponents turn 2 with Electrodominance. They would make good blockers if we need to stall, and it's 8 power with trample. Seems legit.

    IMO Bloodbraid Elf just isn't as value train as she once was. 4 cmc in todays meta is too slow, and you have so many better cards to play with now. I don't use her because she's a creature that will just instantly get wiped away *IF* I cascade into a Restore balance. I'd also rather make sure I'm guareented to hit my balances on the first try, rather than hit something dumb. Like a borderpost which just screws me over if I don't need it.

    ya, I'm well aware of my issues against artifact hate, but the interesting thing is most poeple don't board in the hate until G2 which usually helps me at least go to G3. Then I just aggresivly mulligan, and it happens more often than not, 1 SSG, 1 Island, 1 Monastery Siege, and either a post or a 2nd SSG. Then I'm pretty much safe against all hate for a while. But I also don't mind going for a slower match and relying on my As Foretolds, basic lands, and Gargadons to help me out.

    One card I really wanna add to this deck to make it faster, other than converting it over to Electrodomanic, is Prismatic Vista to replace my 4 Terramorphics. This would give me access to a lot more of my spells sooner, as well as playing my Posts a turn earlier. That said, at around ~$50/ea I'm a long way off of that.

    As far as Crashing Footfalls go, it's a super powerful card in the Electrodomanic build. As you said, you play them after a Balance and suddenly your opponent is on their back foot, or you play them in response whether it's EoT or Battle phase against your opponent off a Electrodomanic and you're in shape. I personally don't like them, the only downside is you're making bodies on the board you either hope can get off the board to balance, or trying to beat them down asap. It's situation because against Token decks, humans, Affinity, and even Boggles, having 2 bodies on the board you're hoping to have killed off (This being the case if you don't have Greater Gargadon out/suspeneded) your opponent could just ignore until their board state is perfect enough to beat you back with makes me kinda frustrated.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Quote from vikingtrader »
    @TheGreatGodLoki - Are you running a cascade package to cast Balance? The way you've worded your reply makes me think you're not running Electrodominance and As Foretold. Also, have you ever used Gideon's bottom 0 ability so you can't lose the game? Seems kinda fringe but I like it. Typically I would assume Gideon just acts as a 4-5 turn clock once you Balance. I don't think it's the best option myself but he seems ok.

    Would you mind posting your list?

    I do not run the new Electrodomanic list, I've stuck true to the orignal Borderpost list. That said, Gideons 0 ability mainly helps buy me a turn since he will generally direct at least +3 damage away from my face, and after a restore balance he acts as a beater which is hard to remove alongside after a good Balance his 0 ability often times helps seals victory . Since I don't have a lot of wiggle room with the old version, I like to get as much flexability out of each card I put into the deck. It either has to do more than one thing, or be so good at the one thing it can do (Blood Moon and Supreme Will as examples) With how power creep-ish Wizards is getting these days, I don't find myself at a loss for cards to mull around with. Any questions you have I'll be more than happy to answer.

    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Heres is the thing. I've played Thassa mainboard as 2x, but she was very slow. Because I personally run so many x/U permanents, she becomes a creature after a while and then messes up our Restore balance. I replaced her with 2 Gideon of the Trials and then ran 2 Monastery Siege to replace her scry effect.

    I also like to think of this deck as a control/combo deck. We set our pieces up, and control our opponents through the fear of our combo. Whereas other combo decks kill you, we just reset your board state every time.

    As far as cards like Bloon Moon and Chalice goes, I run Wear // Tear as a 4x since I play the post version and I'm more scared of Chalice. If you play the Electrodomanice version then you're more fearful of Blood Moon, but you can easily play around it with fetches.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    One thing I've started running in my SB is Imprisoned in the Moon for those pesky planeswalkers. It gives them a basic colorless land which then can be later swept away via Restore balance. I run the outdated Borderpost list of UWR.
    I've found I can rush Tron pretty well unless they land a planeswalker.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Quote from vikingtrader »
    Has anyone tried out Lotus Field in the deck? Seems like an advanced borderpost that can't be hated on. It could be a good way to get the land count down without Gargadon/posts.

    Turn 1&2 play lands, turn 3 tap both lands then play Lotus Field and Electrodominance->Restore Balance. Turn 4 slam down Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Nahiri, the Harbinger or something else that makes the opponents life rough. Also should note that it can search with Tolaria West by itself right after a balance which could possibly be relevant after As Foretold is on the board.

    Could run Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, or Ancient Stirrings to insure that we can actually get the Field in our hand.

    Is it winmore? Worth testing? Would we sacrifice too many cards in the deck to utilize it?

    I personally feel that Lotus Field is a tad slow. I've been adamant on this thread I've only played the borderpost version (which I'll defend until I die). That said, producing 3 singular types of mana on 1 card now that the deck can go upwards of 3+ colors due to Electro is very slow. I feel that is a win more card because unless you're facing Ponza, not a lot of decks go for the destroy lands style of play. Often times keeping 2 mana up on T2 is better for those responses rather than spending a turn to develop this Lotus Field.

    We're also a mid-range/control deck/combo. Funneling resources into finding just 1 land will hurt us. We aren't tron or scapeshift. We want to play the game out getting the most out of our Restore Balances. Wether that is by Opt, Serum Visions or Supreme Will we're trying to find our combo pieces asap that way we can control the board when we want to.

    Those are my 2 cents.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Restore Balance
    Hi there,

    If you're willing to pick one of those deck versions, I'd be willing to help you edit it a bit more.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on R/B Opponent Chooses Deck
    Hi all,

    I've been playing a lot of Restore Balance for most of my modern days, (about 3-4 years), and been looking to switch it up for a variety of reasons.
    1. Very fragile (I played the post version and I dislike the new Electrodomanic version)
    2. Friends dislike playing against it due to it's warping play style
    3. Grown a little stale of it.

    I'm not a big spender of money, which limits my viability, but I like to build janky style of decks. This led me to finding cards such as Dash Hopes, Sin Prodder, and Browbeat, and even ranging into blue cards like fatespinner and Distant Memories. So this led me to do either UB/RB/ or Tri-color of all three.

    I tossed together a quick Red/Black version of the deck idea, but I wanted to know how would this fare in actual play. I've taken a year or so break from modern so I'm not entirely sure what the meta is like, and I know local game stores have their own meta entirely.

    Posted in: Modern
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