So I haven't played this deck but I am kind of cautious of it. The 4 copies of living end end is odd when you don't have that many creatures in the graveyard and the full playset of 4 electrodomiance and 3 as foretold. I would think you could just get away with electrodomiance and goryo's and not need as foretold.
Ok, I kinda agree on what you say about the As Foretolds. It often feels weird to sit back for a whole turn with your enchantment/s in hand while thinking that an instant speed Electrodominance will get you there.
But, I strongly disagree on what you say about Living End and being low on creatures. This particular shell doesn´t rely that much on board presence and evasion (well, good old Grisel though :D). You only need to reanimate a Grisel (permanently if it´s via Living End) or a Jace, or Deceiver + Kiki to make it. It also has many other different lines, discard Kiki on turn 1 or 2, playing Exarch on turn 3 tapping them out (ideally) and Goryo´s or Electrodominance + Living End on turn 4. It´s not like your gameplan is cycle, cycle, cycle into I put a 5/5 Hexproof a 4/4 Flying and some other creature for lethal in 2 turns. Here your plan is to do something broken, either Deceiver + Kiki, Jace and flip it (not as weak play as you may think) or Griselbrand and draw 7 + the next turn I´ll do it again.
However, I feel like Ancestral Visions has a very low impact when playing it. I´m not sure if Discovery // Dispersal (or some kind of cantrip/graveyard filler) will make a better job here. Worths my testing.
I just wanted to point this out, this deck 5-0 and I know the goal is to get phoenix out but the shell is very similar. I just thought the electrodominance and goryo's would be enough and as foretold is overkill. I can see the deck above having some sweet lines with kiki-jiki but i can see like 2-3 living ends max. Would wheel of fate be a more interesting card then ancestral vision or both in the deck?
Well, I'm not saying is a terrible idea to play Wheel of Fate in Ancestral's Vision spot... But you want as less symmetycal effects in your deck as possible (IMHO). I'd rather play Remands or the already mentioned Discovery // Dispersal in that slot. But again, dind't test it yet.
About LE, reanimating both Jace and Griselbrand (or a piece of the Kiki + Exarch combo) in combination with the rest seems pretty decent. I'm also again not saying that cutting on LE is wrong, just that the strong plays that it allows is worth the 4 copies I think.
So I haven't played this deck but I am kind of cautious of it. The 4 copies of living end end is odd when you don't have that many creatures in the graveyard and the full playset of 4 electrodomiance and 3 as foretold. I would think you could just get away with electrodomiance and goryo's and not need as foretold.
Ok, I kinda agree on what you say about the As Foretolds. It often feels weird to sit back for a whole turn with your enchantment/s in hand while thinking that an instant speed Electrodominance will get you there.
But, I strongly disagree on what you say about Living End and being low on creatures. This particular shell doesn´t rely that much on board presence and evasion (well, good old Grisel though :D). You only need to reanimate a Grisel (permanently if it´s via Living End) or a Jace, or Deceiver + Kiki to make it. It also has many other different lines, discard Kiki on turn 1 or 2, playing Exarch on turn 3 tapping them out (ideally) and Goryo´s or Electrodominance + Living End on turn 4. It´s not like your gameplan is cycle, cycle, cycle into I put a 5/5 Hexproof a 4/4 Flying and some other creature for lethal in 2 turns. Here your plan is to do something broken, either Deceiver + Kiki, Jace and flip it (not as weak play as you may think) or Griselbrand and draw 7 + the next turn I´ll do it again.
However, I feel like Ancestral Visions has a very low impact when playing it. I´m not sure if Discovery // Dispersal (or some kind of cantrip/graveyard filler) will make a better job here. Worths my testing.
I'm currently on a 7-0 tear in friendlies with the deck. I am torn about wanting Tolaria West; but it feels like it absolutely has legs.
To be completely honest, I don't know if I want an "always enter tap" to the battelfield land in a 19-lands build...
With all the looting effects and the Goryo's plan I've never felt like spending a whole turn transmutting for LE.
But that's just my one of my first impressions with the deck, it does need much more testing
I agree; that is my number one hesitation. However the utility is high enough that I'm inclined to test it for a few leagues.
I'm currently on a 7-0 tear in friendlies with the deck. I am torn about wanting Tolaria West; but it feels like it absolutely has legs.
To be completely honest, I don't know if I want an "always enter tap" to the battelfield land in a 19-lands build...
With all the looting effects and the Goryo's plan I've never felt like spending a whole turn transmutting for LE.
But that's just my one of my first impressions with the deck, it does need much more testing
Well, seems like UR might get another chance with Electrodominance.
RR cast a 0 mana spell at instant speed for free seems solid, and I've always liked the idea of Faithless looting to dig and possibly play more "bomb" creatures. Grixis already did a couple of interesting things with Goryo's and Kiki-Jikki, this might give it a nice push. Kari-Zev's expertise can give another way of casting 0 CMC cards, and wheel of fate is another way of digging hard to whatever we need.
I know, I know, that's a completely different deck...
Did anybody try changes to the Grixis Goryo AF list that was kind of popular 6 months ago or so?
Wheel of Fate seems like a ton of fun and potentially broken. Of course, the control build goes out the window, it'll be a combo deck.
On the Uw side, I managed to 3-1 at my local shop again, Path and Purge were sooo good I don't see myself going back to Ub anytime soon.
UW is definitely the best build of the ones explored in this thread in my opinion.
In the burn match his only outs were Bolt or Spike off the top (I had a multiple creatures and a flippable JVP in play with two Blessed Alliance at 5 life; he had 3 lands in play with only a Skullcrack in hand). Burn does as they do and rips a bolt.
The spirits match was interesting - he ran super hot in game 3 (double Coco, rattlechains for my path, spell queller for my blocker I was trying to hard cast through Thalia).
Tolaria west as a 3 mana sorcery speed tutor feels slow as hell. It might be good indeed,especially tutoring Bojuka and EE vs Dredge / Humans resp.
I'll test my own brew in my playgroup, I'll tell you how it worked for me.
You are playing a Control deck, so a 3 mana sorcery speed "uncountereable" tutor can't be bad
Against Dredge your plan should be to survive until you can LE+AF (their creatures are just worse than yours) by Pathing here and there, and eventually Bojuka/Tormod if you are able to do so (but removing their GY shouldn't be your main plan against them). After SB, things change, I'm usually taking out some AV and Remands to put in Celestial Purge + GY hate such Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical Extraction. I've also considered Oust, if I have more things that I want to take out than the ones I can actually put in.
With Humans, unless they have double Meddling Mage (and even so), you have plenty of removal. Mass removal in the form of AF+LE and EE, and Path to Exile as spot removal. And after SB, again, things change. AV and Remands are bad, but Oust and Blessed Alliance (in my case, this is what I have in SB for aggro MU) help you a lot. It also dependes in your SB configuration, but from my experience, everythign changes if you approach the MU correctly.
That’s unfortunate, I did read the previous pages but I have trouble turning the information there into success for me using this deck.
I’ll try to see if the UW Control deck has more information about navigating the control part of this deck.
Thank you nonetheless.
Congratulations! You got Condescended by BloodyRabbit_01
I've seen it before in different threads of this forum, so don't take it as something personal. It's just the way he/she is.
Jokes aside, for those trying to make the UB version work: I've been there, I've done that - sleeve up the UW
@Weakatchu:
1. Cutting Tolaria West - This is wrong, it fetches not only AV and LE, but EE and Tormod's Crypt(if you play them) AND Bojuka Bog. 2. Mausoleum secrets allow to tutor for Push, Surgical, Collective Brutality and obv LE - From my experience with the deck, Push is bad (you don't want your op's creatures to come back, plus you don't always will have Revolt), Collective Brutality is decent, but it's not aligned with what your deck is trying to do (cyclers also help you to hit your landrops consistently and to dig in your library), and LE is fetchable with Tolaria (playing less that 3x is wrong IMO) 3. Mission's Briefing allows to play again all of our 1-of, and AV or LE - I've been trying to fit 1-2 copies of the card in the deck, but I still can't find the right cards to cut. My current MD is pretty tight, and I can't quite find the right spot.
Maybe the Counters package are too messy - They are, indeed.
@Namtar
The first thing you need to accept is that you are not playing a combo deck but a Control one. That's it.
For example, there will be spots where the correct line will be to play your 4/4 flyers one by one, even keeping them in hand, instead of cycling your creatures in order to dig for the AF+LE. Many times you won't instantly win after one single attack, so treat the AF+LE as a "value" effect rather than a "combo". The same goes with AF+AV. From my perspective, it's all part of the same plan: Board Pressence + Card Advantage.
I've played it few times, and I always feel that I need an early Path to Exile (or two) to survive to the first turns of the game. Also, Tormod's Crypt and Bojuka Bog are the cards I want to see in my opening/early-draws. EE helps just a bit in this matchup, it doesn't hit as many targets as you want (honestly, only Adept on 1), because the rest are coming back from graveyard or have high mana costs (3+).
Turn 4 for Curator is sometimes too late, and stalling the game is no longer an option. However, if you make it until turn 3 and go AF+LE, you'll probably have more chances to hit the midgame/lategame, since they run out of gas eventually.
Like you said, post-board is a completely different story...
Because, even though it doesn’t block our LE, it’s still the worse Grave hate we can play. Removing the graveyard is simply better than keeping it in check, and you can easily deal with a Cage, while removed cards are... removed, in fact.
Yes, that's why I like to maindeck a copy of Tormod's Crypt along with Bojuka Bog. However, I'm gonna try the Cages and see how it goes.
I cut one LE only if I play a third sweeper maindeck. See my last post (and list). Less then 6 mass removals in this metagame is crazy, imho. Too many creatures to take care of, playing removal-less is no longer an option.
I'm going up one EE more, and double Nimble Obstructionist. No Vendilion, Timely and Hallowed for 2x Cages and 2x Blessed Alliance in SB.
I also have mixed feelings with the 3 copies of Field of Ruin MD, we are definitely not UW Control, and it does hurt here. Maybe the fourth copy of Seachrome Coast? I didn't run the numbers, but I guess it should be fine(?). However, Cryptic Command turn 4... For sure, I prefer 2 Field of Ruin + 1 Ghost Quarter with the Surgicals, but still grey mana.
@Bloody:
What about playing 3 Living Ends?
No issues with casting/finding AF+LE? This is one of the hot takes of the thread recently (didn't dig into the last pages, but I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who was against this approach).
Well, I'm not saying is a terrible idea to play Wheel of Fate in Ancestral's Vision spot... But you want as less symmetycal effects in your deck as possible (IMHO). I'd rather play Remands or the already mentioned Discovery // Dispersal in that slot. But again, dind't test it yet.
About LE, reanimating both Jace and Griselbrand (or a piece of the Kiki + Exarch combo) in combination with the rest seems pretty decent. I'm also again not saying that cutting on LE is wrong, just that the strong plays that it allows is worth the 4 copies I think.
Ok, I kinda agree on what you say about the As Foretolds. It often feels weird to sit back for a whole turn with your enchantment/s in hand while thinking that an instant speed Electrodominance will get you there.
But, I strongly disagree on what you say about Living End and being low on creatures. This particular shell doesn´t rely that much on board presence and evasion (well, good old Grisel though :D). You only need to reanimate a Grisel (permanently if it´s via Living End) or a Jace, or Deceiver + Kiki to make it. It also has many other different lines, discard Kiki on turn 1 or 2, playing Exarch on turn 3 tapping them out (ideally) and Goryo´s or Electrodominance + Living End on turn 4. It´s not like your gameplan is cycle, cycle, cycle into I put a 5/5 Hexproof a 4/4 Flying and some other creature for lethal in 2 turns. Here your plan is to do something broken, either Deceiver + Kiki, Jace and flip it (not as weak play as you may think) or Griselbrand and draw 7 + the next turn I´ll do it again.
However, I feel like Ancestral Visions has a very low impact when playing it. I´m not sure if Discovery // Dispersal (or some kind of cantrip/graveyard filler) will make a better job here. Worths my testing.
Well, then let us know with your results!
To be completely honest, I don't know if I want an "always enter tap" to the battelfield land in a 19-lands build...
With all the looting effects and the Goryo's plan I've never felt like spending a whole turn transmutting for LE.
But that's just my one of my first impressions with the deck, it does need much more testing
The deck has such strong starts and different lines that I find it really fun to play
Yesterday I had a turn 3 kill and several turn 4 Twin-like wins. That moment when your opponent taps out or leaves only one mana source open...
Reanimating a Jace on turn 2 or 3 and being able to flip it feels really nice.
On Izzet's Charm topic, it's a powerhouse in this shell!
UW is definitely the best build of the ones explored in this thread in my opinion.
However, I do see myself playing As Foretold along with Blood Moons. I also got hyped with Electrodominance
Well, you did right anyway, good job
But we want to see your list!
So, how was your Day 2?
Looking forward to see your list!
So far, my results aren't the best.
Just 13-4-5 with deck overall. Too many draws, but that's probably my fault
You are playing a Control deck, so a 3 mana sorcery speed "uncountereable" tutor can't be bad
Against Dredge your plan should be to survive until you can LE+AF (their creatures are just worse than yours) by Pathing here and there, and eventually Bojuka/Tormod if you are able to do so (but removing their GY shouldn't be your main plan against them). After SB, things change, I'm usually taking out some AV and Remands to put in Celestial Purge + GY hate such Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical Extraction. I've also considered Oust, if I have more things that I want to take out than the ones I can actually put in.
With Humans, unless they have double Meddling Mage (and even so), you have plenty of removal. Mass removal in the form of AF+LE and EE, and Path to Exile as spot removal. And after SB, again, things change. AV and Remands are bad, but Oust and Blessed Alliance (in my case, this is what I have in SB for aggro MU) help you a lot. It also dependes in your SB configuration, but from my experience, everythign changes if you approach the MU correctly.
Congratulations! You got Condescended by BloodyRabbit_01
I've seen it before in different threads of this forum, so don't take it as something personal. It's just the way he/she is.
Jokes aside, for those trying to make the UB version work: I've been there, I've done that - sleeve up the UW
@Weakatchu:
1. Cutting Tolaria West - This is wrong, it fetches not only AV and LE, but EE and Tormod's Crypt(if you play them) AND Bojuka Bog.
2. Mausoleum secrets allow to tutor for Push, Surgical, Collective Brutality and obv LE - From my experience with the deck, Push is bad (you don't want your op's creatures to come back, plus you don't always will have Revolt), Collective Brutality is decent, but it's not aligned with what your deck is trying to do (cyclers also help you to hit your landrops consistently and to dig in your library), and LE is fetchable with Tolaria (playing less that 3x is wrong IMO)
3. Mission's Briefing allows to play again all of our 1-of, and AV or LE - I've been trying to fit 1-2 copies of the card in the deck, but I still can't find the right cards to cut. My current MD is pretty tight, and I can't quite find the right spot.
Maybe the Counters package are too messy - They are, indeed.
@Namtar
The first thing you need to accept is that you are not playing a combo deck but a Control one. That's it.
For example, there will be spots where the correct line will be to play your 4/4 flyers one by one, even keeping them in hand, instead of cycling your creatures in order to dig for the AF+LE. Many times you won't instantly win after one single attack, so treat the AF+LE as a "value" effect rather than a "combo". The same goes with AF+AV. From my perspective, it's all part of the same plan: Board Pressence + Card Advantage.
Yeah, me too. Sideboarded games are rather easy with all the removal.
Turn 4 for Curator is sometimes too late, and stalling the game is no longer an option. However, if you make it until turn 3 and go AF+LE, you'll probably have more chances to hit the midgame/lategame, since they run out of gas eventually.
Like you said, post-board is a completely different story...
I also think that UW is the best iteration of the deck, I'm 7-2-2 IRL since I've started playing it
Here is my actual configuration (still missing one EE, though):
2 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
4 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Tolaria West
Creatures (13)
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
3 Glassdust Hulk
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dispel
3 Negate
2 Oust
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
How do you feel about BR Hollow One's matchup?
Yes, that's why I like to maindeck a copy of Tormod's Crypt along with Bojuka Bog. However, I'm gonna try the Cages and see how it goes.
I'm going up one EE more, and double Nimble Obstructionist. No Vendilion, Timely and Hallowed for 2x Cages and 2x Blessed Alliance in SB.
2 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
4 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Tolaria West
Creatures (13)
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
3 Glassdust Hulk
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dispel
3 Negate
2 Oust
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
4 Islands
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Tolaria West
Creatures (13)
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
3 Glassdust Hulk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Dispel
3 Negate
2 Oust
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Timely Reinforcement
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
I'll probably add more Blessed Alliance to the SB and 2 copies of Grafdigger's Cage as GY hate along with the Surgicals.
I also have mixed feelings with the 3 copies of Field of Ruin MD, we are definitely not UW Control, and it does hurt here. Maybe the fourth copy of Seachrome Coast? I didn't run the numbers, but I guess it should be fine(?). However, Cryptic Command turn 4... For sure, I prefer 2 Field of Ruin + 1 Ghost Quarter with the Surgicals, but still grey mana.
About Nimble Obstructionist, I still don't know if I want to go up to 2 MD or going double Vendilion Clique.
@Bloody:
What about playing 3 Living Ends?
No issues with casting/finding AF+LE? This is one of the hot takes of the thread recently (didn't dig into the last pages, but I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who was against this approach).