You can extend the combo further by chaining Man-o'-War creatures and replaying the U/G card draw creatures. The problem is that you need either 7 mana or to have cast Aluren on the previous turn.
What I'm looking for is a creature (CMC 3 or less) to replace Cloudtone Curio. It either needs to let me return 2 creatures, work like Cavern Harpy, or bounce a creature on cast. Some initial searches on Gatherer didn't get me anything useful. Does such a card exist with a U and/or G color identity?
No need for Cloudstone Curio at all.
Momir Vig & Aluren out.
1. play any UG creature
2. fetch and draw Nulltread Gargantuan
3. play NG -> fetch and draw Man-o-War -> put NG on top
4. play MoW -> draw NG -> bounce MoW back to hand
we have now established a mechanism to fetch every creature in our deck:
START: NG & MoW in hand
1. play NG -> fetch and draw the desired creature -> put NG on top
2. play MoW -> draw NG -> bounce MoW back to hand
END: NG & MoW in hand + desired creature in hand
Use this loop to find any creatures you might need. The simplest line is below:
1. fetch and draw Sage's Row Denizen
2. play and bounce MoW infinitely to mill everyone
Was doing some goldfishing and i'm kind in doubt in what lines should i take.
example, 3 lands + englightned tutor + counter + something. should i keep, and play until i have something for sure to get with the tutor? or go get... ?
same question but replace englightned with demonic, vampiric, mystical/wordly? what should be the line of play?
surival first, a creature for the combo?
Sorry for the late reply. Keepable hands are largely reliant on the type of decks you are facing. I usually play in a slower, grindier meta with a lot of hate, so keeping slower hands is okay, but sometimes you might want to aggresively mulligan to either early reanimation or something like fast mana + wheel.
Survival is normally best if you only have one tutor, because it prepares both for a fast (Hulk + Flash or chaining Kiki kill pieces in the grave) and slow game (discarding expensive creatures for dorks -> Sliver Queen or a value piece). Sometimes tutoring for a Recruiter is also viable when you have only a single tutor, because it opens you up to multiple lines and you can partially build them without drawing too much focus to yourself (Recruiter -> Carrion Feeder / Viscera Seer is a good example).
Early game it is G and whetever color you need to play what's already in your hand. Later it becomes important to produce at least 3 R mana for Kiki or Sneak Attack lines.
Razaketh has specific niche uses where he is stronger than Griselbrand. For the plan to function correctly, you deck needs:
- a respectably large creature base (ideally mana dorks or token generation in the command zone)
- a compact wincon (I feel FlashHulk is the best here)
Having those two things covered, you need ways to get Raz out early and reliably and reanimation does so the best. Example scenario:
Entomb -> Reanimate with 2 mana dorks on the table. Sac the 2 dorks to get Flash and Protean Hulk. Win while investing a total of 4 mana. If you can reliably have more bodies on the field, the lines get even easier, since you can incorporate acceleration (like Lotus Petal) and protection (like Pact of Negation) in your tutor chain. Another cute thing to do is tutor for Life // Death and use the Life part to get a bunch of fresh tutor targets, while also tutoring for Gaea's Cradle for acceleration.
In my opinion, this is the strongest way to utilize Razaketh in EDH. As we can see, this is very deck dependant and not at all broken like Griselbrand's ability was. In the future, when more people have put in work with Razaketh, we may get even stronger interactions, but I sincerely doubt they will surpass Griselbrand's raw power.
In your recent deck, you cut dread return, doesn't that wreck the intuition line?
I tried to make a deck a little faster, so I removed the slower lines (Intuition was cut too). I consider Intuition among the slower lines, because hitting all the requirements for the combo is difficult in the early game. I would still play it in a slower meta though.
I personally don't value Riftsweeper highly and I think it's definitely not needed in a deck like this, since it's really difficult for us to lose all lines to victory.
Did you mean Survival instead of Oath? I played Retainers and Elesh in the past and they performed okay. I decided to remove them from the current version because I didn't need them as often and they were sometimes difficult to play (since Elesh is quite expensive and Retainers only works on legendary creatures).
RiP doesn't wreck us completely. We still have the Birthing Pod line that goes as follows:
1-drop and 2-drop in play
pod 2-drop -> Pestermite (untap Pod)
pod 1-drop -> Phantasmal Image (enters as Pestermite -> untap Pod)
pod Phantasmal Image -> Felidar Guardian (blink Pod)
pod Guardian -> Kiki-Jiki
In addition to the Birthing Pod line we also have the Sneak Attack line:
sneak in Recruiter of the Guard/Imperial Recruiter
tutor for Kiki-Jiki
sneak in Kiki
copy Recruiter
tutor for Pestermite
sneak in Pestermite
You'll notice both of these lines don't use the graveyard at all.
Kahno, after seeing your sliver hulk list, i have some questions:
what can i use as substitutes for the original duals (shocklands is straight forward, anything else?)?
mana crypt?
mox diamond?
carpet of flowers is kind of meta dependent, right? or everyone uses U in cEDH (same with pyroblast)?
utopia sprawl is better than any other mana dork? (i guess there might be one or two still left)?
why no use of brainstorm/ponder/pre-ordain?
any substitute for imperail seal, timwtwiester and wheel of fortune, bloom tender, imperial recruiter?
why no sylvan library or silence?
why not village bell ringer instead of pestermite?
and at last, anything from the new edition to add?
Shocklands are the best substitutes, yes. Having all 10 fetches is the most important part of the mana base, along with the rainbow lands, so you can always achieve the desired colors. Shocklands and duals simply make the fetches work optimally. If you can't afford duals, definitely try to at least play all 10 shocklands. Other possible budget alternatives are pain lands. They are much worse, since they don't synergize with fetches, but still provide okay fixing without sacrificing tempo.
Mana Crypt is arguably the strongest acceleration in the deck. I'd substitute it with a random mana rock if you can't afford it. Something like Fellwar Stone should be fine. Either that or include one of the one-drop mana dorks you aren't currently playing (I think Elvish Mystic is currently excluded).
Mox Diamond is also quite hard to replace, since there are few cards with its explosive potential. I'd play another mana rock here as well.
Yes, Carpet is pretty meta dependant. Also, if you play against decks with no blue, you are pretty much winning anyway
While it's usually faster than a mana dork, Utopia Sprawl is also worse in a number of ways. Dorks are often used to fuel other lines of play (Birthing Pod, Skullclamp, Dread Return, etc.) and Utopia Sprawl isn't. Utopia Sprawl is also worse against land based disruption like Back to Basics.
The cantrips you mentioned are all great and solid cards. Currently the deck isn't playing them due to lack of space. We are using a number of different combos that synergize with each other, but that approach takes an above average number of card slots. If you wish to stop playing any of the included combos, those cards are an okay substitution, as they increase consistency.
I'd make the following substitutions:
Imperial Seal -> Lim-Dul's Vault
Timetwister -> either Days' Undoing (if you have all the fast mana) or Thirst for Knowledge
Wheel of Fortune -> Manifold Insights
Bloom Tender -> Priest of Titania
Imperial Recruiter -> Eladamri's Call, assuming you are already playing Recruiter of the Guard
I play in a metagame with 30 point life totals and Sylvan Library is much worse there. Silence is an incredible card and I've only recently started appreciating its power in my 4c Hulk list. I'd definitely try to include it in Sliver Queen KikiHulk, but I don't have an idea what to remove yet.
Village Bell-Ringer does not synergize with Birthing Pod and I find only playing one Pod-synergistic untapper is too unrealiable. The Pod line (2 cmc creature -> Pestermite -> Felidar -> Karmic -> Kiki) is one of our strongest moves and it's important to preserve it even if we lose Deceiver Exarch somehow.
I don't think there's anything that needs to be added from the new set. The only card that has potential in my eyes is Razaketh, since he synergizes with Sliver Queen and can virtually always fetch Flash + Hulk. I'm sure yet, if he is needed in the 5c version.
What is usaully used for the buried alive? only used when we have a reanimate spell in hand?
edit: yeah, read with more attention the primer.
The skullcamp is there for any reason? killing mana dorks?
As mentioned Buried Alive is usually Karmic Guide + Kiki + Kiki partner. There are of course other uses, if you are for some reason unwilling to put Kiki in your graveyard (perhaps due to fear of exile).
Skullclamp is used for quick card advantage. As you noticed, we can kill our dorks with it (usually advisable when we have multiple) or play Sliver Queen and use her as an engine. Skullclamp is also exceptionally good with Saffi.
Would you include Protean Hulk now that it is unbanned?
I'm actually playing the deck with Hulk already! It's performing super well in place of Boonweaver Giant and also allows for a super early win with Flash. That being said, I'm currently exploring the possibility of moving away from red and focusing on the WUBG shell utilizing Thrasios and Tymna. I plan to update the primer with the recent changes in the near future and there's also the possibility of a complete primer overhaul if the new shell sticks.
In the context of the combo I mentioned, yes. However, Ballista is also much stronger with Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseam and critically better when considering the Necrotic Ooze Buried Alive line (Ooze + Devourer + _), because the line works regardless if Ballista is in your deck or your hand. Same cannot be said about Trike.
Trike is only advantageous in situations where the is no sacrifice outlet present. If the deck's focus has shifted towards Hulk, that is negligible, IMO.
Hey guys! Sorry I haven't been active at all lately. You guys are both right - I have played very little Magic lately, and I had (temporarily) also moved on to Gitrog. Today I woke up and realized that I really missed playing Magic, hanging out with my old friends, and browsing/posting on these forums and keeping up with the regulars. Coincidentally, today Protean Hulk was unbanned.
So expect me to be more active in the future. I have to rebuild Jarad - it's been far too long, and Hulk is insane in this deck. The list currently in the OP can combo off with a single Hulk death with the simple inclusion of Viscera Seer - Hulk -> Seer + Phyrexian Delver (gets back Hulk), sac Hulk -> Mikeaus, sac Delver, Undying, grab Hulk, sac Hulk -> Triskelion! Pretty cool line, except that if Phyrexian Delver isn't in the deck, it doesn't work. I'll have to do some thinking as to the most effective package!
So I see that you don't actually have a section in your primer for comparing Jarad to Meren! What would you say the main differences are between the two commanders, from your perspective?
Yes, the primer is quite out of date by now! It'll get an update this month. As for Meren, the biggest difference is this. Meren, as a commander, is consistently good and consistently adds to your presence in the game. Jarad, as a commander, is not commonly a powerful line, but when he is, it generally produces a very powerful effect - look at Mindslicer, Pattern of Rebirth, Phyrexian Devourer... and our newest buddy, Protean Hulk. I'm of the opinion that before Hulk was banned, Meren probably had a slight edge over Jarad for a few reasons: Meren has superior matchups against most of the top decks, Meren can play Null Rod because they don't rely on Mike&Trike or Phyrexian Devourer combo so hard, and Meren can more easily produce soft-lock scenarios that make it hard for your opponents to win the game by looping a creature (Mindslicer, Woodfall Primus, etc) with Meren every turn.
I did a lot of tinkering on different Hulk packages over at the cEDH discord, and I would suggest you try the Ballista Line. Essentially, it goes: Hulk activation -> Viscera Seer/Carrion Feeder + Phyrexian Delver -> reanimate and sac Hulk for another trigger -> get Mike + Walking Ballista. Then sacrifice Ballista (it doesn't die because it's a 1/1 creature due to Mike), have it return with undying and proceed to loop it for infinite damage. The combo is pretty compact, doesn't include any particularly useless pieces and doesn't even require Phyrexian Delver if you have a sacrifice outlet already present.
Braids isn't even comparable to Leovold. Braids is a mono-color card that can come down anywhere between Turn 1 and 3 depending on ramp due to being in one color, and can easily come alongside a number of cards that you can recur to sacrifice, thus immediately locking the game down. She is just as devastating mid-game after a board wipe. Leovold needs at least 3 colors of mana to cast and requires other cards to be abusive and doesn't actually do anything game breaking until the entire deck is built around wheels, which suddenly become ineffective as soon as he dies... which is easy to do. Even without recurring sac fodder, Braids is far more degenerate than Leovold because of how backbreaking she is by herself. Leovold is not busted by himself which is why he is not getting banned. People treated Sigarda like the boogey man for far too long and now you never hear about her because people stopped complaining and finally adjusted. It's funny how that happens.
Show me ANY configuration of cards that Braids could helm and I'll show you a faster Leovold decklist. Since Leovold has access to green, he gets every one-drop mana dork imaginable (almost every manadork equals a turn 2 Leovold). Braids has access to exactly zero of them and can only rely on Dark Ritual, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Mana Vault for speed (everything else is either not fast enough, inefficient or also accessible by Leovold). Furthermore, powering out Braids early leaves you open to creature based removal, whereas Leovold actually has cheap/free (Daze, Mental Misstep, Force of Will, Misdirection) counterspells to protect him.
I think you need to remember that competitive play has no influence on cards being put up for the ban list. Taking it out of that scenario and focusing on casual decks, really the synergistic effect of the card is strong, don't get me wrong, but not broken inherently by itself. Can people do more? Sure. But will PE normally always break a game, certainly not.
Fair enough. I admit that PE will have a lesser impact in decks that are not built specifially to abuse it. I was merely trying to illustrate how strong the card becomes if people really try to make it work. That being said, I also think it is too powerful in a more casual setting. People are talking about it like they do about Hermit Druid: like it's a card that needs to have a deck with a very specific and unusual build. But that actually couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone likes ramping. Mana rocks as well as mana dorks are universally popular.
You say that PE will normally not break the game. Perhaps. But I would wager it'll break it a lot more than PoK.
PoK would come down. If nobody had untapped mana and an answer, the controller would be able to untap and protect it. PoK needs you to have card draw or mana sinks to take advantage. These are easy to come by.
When Paradox Engine comes down, unless the person can immediately start untapping things, people will have a turn cycle to deal with it. Paradox engine needs you to have mana rocks or mana dorks, and to have card draw. Paradox Engine requires a board presence before being played, and it requires open mana to trigger it to take advantage.
I know that Paradox Engine has the capacity to be more degenerate. But there are many cards that have that capacity. I think winning with Reveillark is easier than winning with Paradox Engine. It requires just about the same amount of set-up, and it is more resilient as you already have a built-in reanimator shell.
Since the capacity to be degenerate is not a criteria for banning, you would need to establish that it is broken by itself.
First off, PoK is a joke compared to Paradox Engine in the competitive sense. PoK powered exactly one deck: Momir Vig, while Paradox Engine has almost singlehandedly shaken the entire competitive metagame, created two completely new decks that can't function properly without it (Paradox Arcum and Paradox Sisay) and is a crazy strong include in many other top tier decks. Also, please don't compare Paradox Engine to Reveillark. I have been playing a Reveillark deck for more than 7 years and the actual card is almost never as strong as Paradox Engine is in routine situations. Furthermore, where PE synergizes with any non-land mana producer, Reveillark really only combos with a handful of specific creatures and is merely a one-off value play otherwise. If anything, Paradox Engine should be compared to cards like Sneak Attack, since they are both pseudo Ritual factories. The main difference being that Paradox Engine works on all spells, not just creatures.
Think of it this way. If you are ONLY playing the most basic mana rocks (no Sol Ring, no Mana Vault, no Gilded Lotus, not even mana producing creatures, and definitely no other strong tap abilities), Paradox Engine basically says: Spells you cast have affinity for artifacts. Do you realize how broken that it?
Because there's a difference between fundamental rules and bookkeeping overhead. BaaC did nothing to make the format function "as intended" - it was an additional complexity for a very small difference. You also ignore what removing the list actually did - it simplified things and made it easier to communicate. Sure, to someone who spends their time on message boards, that may not seem like much, but people who don't breathe this stuff are helped by these efforts.
You'll note we have stripped away a lot of rules that weren't fundamentally important over the past few years. Commander is better for it.
I admit that those rules are more fundamental to EDH as a whole, but BaaC did indeed serve a functional purpose: it prohibited the use of Commanders that went against the RC's spirit of the format, while not constricting general deckbuilding. I also admit that its positive impact may have been minimal due to its short length, but it did exist.
You mentioned the change simplified things and made them easier to communicate. Could you elaborate on that? Surely you are not referring to stuff like: "Oh, and by the way, there's also a few cards that you can play in your deck, just not as a Commander."
I swear I'm not trying to be facetious here, I just cannot understand what is the value gained from this change. You also mentioned bookkeeping overhead. Were you referring to the maintenance of the banlist or something else? Right now, the only thing that feels remotely logical to me about the whole BaaC thing is that you simply value a few less spoken/written sentences to a few more available cards. Which I don't really agree with, but fine, I guess :/
Also, sorry for rehashing this whole BaaC discussion in the first place. Sheldon's article brought up some old problems I (and some other people) had with the move and I figured it is best that the move itself was addressed and discussed again so people get a wider picture on the subject and the intentions of the RC.
Momir Vig & Aluren out.
1. play any UG creature
2. fetch and draw Nulltread Gargantuan
3. play NG -> fetch and draw Man-o-War -> put NG on top
4. play MoW -> draw NG -> bounce MoW back to hand
we have now established a mechanism to fetch every creature in our deck:
START: NG & MoW in hand
1. play NG -> fetch and draw the desired creature -> put NG on top
2. play MoW -> draw NG -> bounce MoW back to hand
END: NG & MoW in hand + desired creature in hand
Use this loop to find any creatures you might need. The simplest line is below:
1. fetch and draw Sage's Row Denizen
2. play and bounce MoW infinitely to mill everyone
Survival is normally best if you only have one tutor, because it prepares both for a fast (Hulk + Flash or chaining Kiki kill pieces in the grave) and slow game (discarding expensive creatures for dorks -> Sliver Queen or a value piece). Sometimes tutoring for a Recruiter is also viable when you have only a single tutor, because it opens you up to multiple lines and you can partially build them without drawing too much focus to yourself (Recruiter -> Carrion Feeder / Viscera Seer is a good example).
- a respectably large creature base (ideally mana dorks or token generation in the command zone)
- a compact wincon (I feel FlashHulk is the best here)
Having those two things covered, you need ways to get Raz out early and reliably and reanimation does so the best. Example scenario:
Entomb -> Reanimate with 2 mana dorks on the table. Sac the 2 dorks to get Flash and Protean Hulk. Win while investing a total of 4 mana. If you can reliably have more bodies on the field, the lines get even easier, since you can incorporate acceleration (like Lotus Petal) and protection (like Pact of Negation) in your tutor chain. Another cute thing to do is tutor for Life // Death and use the Life part to get a bunch of fresh tutor targets, while also tutoring for Gaea's Cradle for acceleration.
In my opinion, this is the strongest way to utilize Razaketh in EDH. As we can see, this is very deck dependant and not at all broken like Griselbrand's ability was. In the future, when more people have put in work with Razaketh, we may get even stronger interactions, but I sincerely doubt they will surpass Griselbrand's raw power.
I tried to make a deck a little faster, so I removed the slower lines (Intuition was cut too). I consider Intuition among the slower lines, because hitting all the requirements for the combo is difficult in the early game. I would still play it in a slower meta though.
I personally don't value Riftsweeper highly and I think it's definitely not needed in a deck like this, since it's really difficult for us to lose all lines to victory.
RiP doesn't wreck us completely. We still have the Birthing Pod line that goes as follows:
1-drop and 2-drop in play
pod 2-drop -> Pestermite (untap Pod)
pod 1-drop -> Phantasmal Image (enters as Pestermite -> untap Pod)
pod Phantasmal Image -> Felidar Guardian (blink Pod)
pod Guardian -> Kiki-Jiki
In addition to the Birthing Pod line we also have the Sneak Attack line:
sneak in Recruiter of the Guard/Imperial Recruiter
tutor for Kiki-Jiki
sneak in Kiki
copy Recruiter
tutor for Pestermite
sneak in Pestermite
You'll notice both of these lines don't use the graveyard at all.
Mana Crypt is arguably the strongest acceleration in the deck. I'd substitute it with a random mana rock if you can't afford it. Something like Fellwar Stone should be fine. Either that or include one of the one-drop mana dorks you aren't currently playing (I think Elvish Mystic is currently excluded).
Mox Diamond is also quite hard to replace, since there are few cards with its explosive potential. I'd play another mana rock here as well.
Yes, Carpet is pretty meta dependant. Also, if you play against decks with no blue, you are pretty much winning anyway
While it's usually faster than a mana dork, Utopia Sprawl is also worse in a number of ways. Dorks are often used to fuel other lines of play (Birthing Pod, Skullclamp, Dread Return, etc.) and Utopia Sprawl isn't. Utopia Sprawl is also worse against land based disruption like Back to Basics.
The cantrips you mentioned are all great and solid cards. Currently the deck isn't playing them due to lack of space. We are using a number of different combos that synergize with each other, but that approach takes an above average number of card slots. If you wish to stop playing any of the included combos, those cards are an okay substitution, as they increase consistency.
I'd make the following substitutions:
Imperial Seal -> Lim-Dul's Vault
Timetwister -> either Days' Undoing (if you have all the fast mana) or Thirst for Knowledge
Wheel of Fortune -> Manifold Insights
Bloom Tender -> Priest of Titania
Imperial Recruiter -> Eladamri's Call, assuming you are already playing Recruiter of the Guard
I play in a metagame with 30 point life totals and Sylvan Library is much worse there. Silence is an incredible card and I've only recently started appreciating its power in my 4c Hulk list. I'd definitely try to include it in Sliver Queen KikiHulk, but I don't have an idea what to remove yet.
Village Bell-Ringer does not synergize with Birthing Pod and I find only playing one Pod-synergistic untapper is too unrealiable. The Pod line (2 cmc creature -> Pestermite -> Felidar -> Karmic -> Kiki) is one of our strongest moves and it's important to preserve it even if we lose Deceiver Exarch somehow.
I don't think there's anything that needs to be added from the new set. The only card that has potential in my eyes is Razaketh, since he synergizes with Sliver Queen and can virtually always fetch Flash + Hulk. I'm sure yet, if he is needed in the 5c version.
Skullclamp is used for quick card advantage. As you noticed, we can kill our dorks with it (usually advisable when we have multiple) or play Sliver Queen and use her as an engine. Skullclamp is also exceptionally good with Saffi.
Trike is only advantageous in situations where the is no sacrifice outlet present. If the deck's focus has shifted towards Hulk, that is negligible, IMO.
And who the heck was worried about Sigarda?
You say that PE will normally not break the game. Perhaps. But I would wager it'll break it a lot more than PoK.
Think of it this way. If you are ONLY playing the most basic mana rocks (no Sol Ring, no Mana Vault, no Gilded Lotus, not even mana producing creatures, and definitely no other strong tap abilities), Paradox Engine basically says: Spells you cast have affinity for artifacts. Do you realize how broken that it?
You mentioned the change simplified things and made them easier to communicate. Could you elaborate on that? Surely you are not referring to stuff like: "Oh, and by the way, there's also a few cards that you can play in your deck, just not as a Commander."
I swear I'm not trying to be facetious here, I just cannot understand what is the value gained from this change. You also mentioned bookkeeping overhead. Were you referring to the maintenance of the banlist or something else? Right now, the only thing that feels remotely logical to me about the whole BaaC thing is that you simply value a few less spoken/written sentences to a few more available cards. Which I don't really agree with, but fine, I guess :/
Also, sorry for rehashing this whole BaaC discussion in the first place. Sheldon's article brought up some old problems I (and some other people) had with the move and I figured it is best that the move itself was addressed and discussed again so people get a wider picture on the subject and the intentions of the RC.