This is the list I'm gonna run tonight at my local (and it's totally not based off your list Reslin). I still have some love left for gonti's machinations and this is technically the first time I'm running black without GM. Also, not sure about the Fatal push either. I think Go for the throat is better than Terminate or Push. I'm actually thinking maybe to run more Searing blood instead of the pushes.
List looks solid! The only thing I'd change is the fatal push to Exquisite Firecraft but that depends how much control you have in your meta. Extra Searing Blood is also not a bad idea. You could also go up one searing blood and one Rakdos Charm for minus two Fatal push. Depends what you need. Let us know how it works out for you. Contaminated Ground has really been pulling it's weight for me and I seriously stand by the statement that Contaminated Ground + Rakdos Charm is why you go black. Though, Rain of Gore in certain metas gets a nod as well.
If I didn't run Rain of Gore I'd probably consider Go for the Throat or Fatal Push.
The only 3 Pro-Red things I'd be worried about at the moment are Kor Firewalker, Master of Waves and Phyrexian Crusader. Rain of Gore hilariously deals with Firewalker, and I'm not too fussed with the other 2 creatures - both are fringe in the meta at the moment.
Yeah, with your side that's exactly what I'd do and completely agree there. I just have a different board than you. We're definitely the control game against affinity. I personally board in 3 rakdos charm, 2 searing blood, and 4 destructive revelry which gives me 9 cards against affinity. Just like your changes. So sounds solid.
I don't like the idea of Go for the Throat not hitting Affinity. If I have 1B for GFTT, I'll also have RB for Terminate which is strictly better.
Go for the Throat is really good for RB Burn. You don't need to bring it in affinity when we already have access to Rakdos Charm if you want more artifact removal on top of a single stomping ground for revelry (or smash to smithereens if you don't have revelry) we should have plenty of removal for artifacts but Terminate is a good choice as well if you're not running into protection from red creatures. If there's merfolk in your meta or korr firewalker it can be a consideration. That being said.. yeah Sovereign's bite is really pulling it's weight in our RB lists. I'm also on the 19 lands plan.
Hey all, looking to get into Burn on MODO for the first time.
What does everyone consider the stock list for someone to get started with?
I'm looking at this list that recently 5-0'd and I like the choices: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1189573#online
(I'd rather avoid Ensnaring Bridge for budget reasons, but I could probably be talked into it)
Bridge is really good in this deck good. You're going to dump your hand quickly.
I suppose Palm has fallen out of favor for some, but I prefer it to Firecraft
I'm assuming where you listed 3 skullcrack in your sideboard was meant to be searing blood? Some of us are against bridge because casting it for 3 and having it removed meant tapping out to achieve nothing. Bridge can be good but some of us feels it's too much mana to not achieve our game plan. That being said, it's very popular and many burn lists that have posted results have had it in their side which is undeniable. However, there have also been lists that didn't. So it's definitely not a necessary side board and could probably be called one of our side board flex spots.
Short about me: Studying at University with a relatively small budget, male etc etc I have finally trumped my fear of MTG and have given it a chance. I've always seemed a bit afraid of the complexity at a younger age but now I think I can handle it pretty well (used to be a Pokemon-guy). However there are some things that I might need some help with, thats why I post here.
I really hope someone here will be able to help me gain some knowledge around the topic I'll be discussing. So first of I am not a native speaker so if there is something that is unclear please do not hesitate to ask for clarification, thanks. So I am a fresh new MTG-Player, yesterday I attended the Open house Core M19 event at my friendly local game-store, mainly to get to know the game a little bit and the basics. I got my promo and a welcome deck. So now to little tricker questions, I've bought like 3000 - 3500 cards in bulk (rares, commons, uncommons) and do not know where to start at all. I want to build a deck that is fairly competitive but not a really really high-end deck that costs thousands of dollars. I want an ok FNM- modern deck that can hold up and maybe sometime win when I have gotten some training with it. There are some cards thats value exceeds 5 dollars each in the bulk I purchased (I haven't gone through all of it yet, takes a lot of time) but not to many I mainly own cards from the following sets:
Dominaria (Uncommon & Commons a few rares)
Ixalan (Uncommons & Commons)
Hour of Devastation(Uncommons & Commons a few rares)
Aether Revolt (Uncommons & Commons)
Kaladesh (Uncommon & Commons)
I've preordered a box of M19 Core and will attend the prerelease next weekend. So my previous experience with TCGs is that I like to start learning with a fast and aggressive deck like Zoolock in Hearthstone and such. Aggro and tempo is my main go to in the beginning in games like hearthstone until I learn the game mechanics enough to be able to go forward with a control deck. Although I find fast aggressive decks really fun to play. The colors in magic I would like to play would therefore result in a red black combo I guess? blue is more control right? If someone with a bit of experience could help lead the way to a fine deck I would really appreciate it, right now everything seems to be overwhelming, I do not know which cards to search for and every deck I seem to find on sites like tappedout is like 500+ dollars.
I would like to stay somewhere 100-150 dollar maximum. (For a deck that can be used a while from now on)
Tbh I would prefer something a bit cheaper than that like 50 dollars, since its my first deck. But yeah bring your ideas
I appreciate all the help I can get, and remember to explain thoroughly since I am sort of new and therefore not used to the lingo, thanks! =)
/Nyrf
Based on your criteria and the fact that you gravitate towards aggro lists when learning a format (/game) and your budget.. I'd recommend 8 Whack Goblins, Mono-red Burn, Mono Green Stompy, and Abzan Rites isn't too hard to play which you can with your budget. I'd start here and see if any of those I listed interest you as a player. From there you can learn the game, the format, and have a decent chance to perform well at the FNM level before moving on to other decks. Abzan Rites to warn you isn't a fast aggressive deck but it's certainly a powerful deck for your budget range. I'd at least check it out before dismissing it.
A good stocklist without any innovations, except from the sideboard: He chose to not bring at all Lavamancer, Searing blood, Exquisite firecraft. I don't know why.
Instead, 4 revelry Plus 1 ancient grudge which is surprising for the one more articles hate then for this card instead of Shattering spree. I don't understand this choice.
He is the first player from a top 8 I see without any Bridges, instead he chose 2 Palm which is fine.
3 gy hate with the split 2 cage/1 rip, I like that.
And 2 Kor... Controversed card. He is from the Kor team indubitably that he may judges stronger than Firecraft/lavamancer/SBlood. Again I don't really understand why.
I think the Korr Firewalker might have been a good call here. 3 Burn Lists went 8-0. So there might have been a decent amount of burn showing. Still, I also find ancient grudge a strange choice given that we have better artifact removal.
I'm not necessarily arguging against RB, but RBW (I find color consistency to be victimized if we push tri-color in a blood moon meta.) I recognize there is some merit to RB, since it has more one drop spells due to Bump in the Night. The sideboard is also arguably stronger, since sometimes hte only white card we side in is path to exile. At least black would give fatal push, Rain of Gore, Rakdos Charm, and collective brutality (odd choices, but brutality is a "burn" spell by itself.
Your last statement is where I think the final nail in the coffin arrives when considering different color combinations. Black doesn't provide QUITE ENOUGH yet to justify dropping white altogether. If Deathrite Shaman were still legal, then yeah, I'd say RB were superior. But, for the time being, we would need a 2 mana burn spell that provides direct burn with some additional effect. It's really a shame Rakdos charm doesn't help burn at all main deck. There were quite a few good effects they could have packed in: deal 2 damage to target creature or player, destroy target artifact, remove two cards in a graveyard from the game. I would even be okay with a RB enhancement or 3 mana planeswalker (something burn desperately needs.) Collective brutality almost made the cut, but 2 damage to gain 2 life was not good enough.
I am definitely okay with doing testing on the RB front. I have both a hyper aggro and 1 drop RB emphasis with Bomat Courier I want to try. Here is the basic idea behind it:
That's more or less the idea. You want to play low cost, high efficiency spells and maximize the number of them you have through Bomat Courier. The higher cost spells are situational and thrown into the sideboard. I forgot how good Rakdos Charm was in this meta. Built in Relic, punishes affinity, new goblins, and mardu tokens, artifact hate.
I want to preface and say I don't intend to be the guy that screams "No you're wrong!" but I want to provide an example why the list above isn't the way I'd go by using a rather extreme example (because I can name a ton of little scenarios or stress something in order to make my point.) In your list you've axed Sovereign's Bite in the main, Eidolon of the Great Revel, and added two shard volleys in the place most lists run lightning helix (or as I propose Sovereign's bite) you did this in order to bring in some more hasty creatures as well as some more speed. However, I'm going to attempt to reveal why I think pure speed isn't cutting it with an example that would occur if you drew a hand of everything you replaced. So let's say you start with a hand of..
Two Bomat Couriers, Two Shard Volley, Two lands, a Grim Lavamancer, and some other card. Versus:
Two Eidolon of the Great Revels, Two lightning helix/Sovereign's Bite, Two lands, and two other random cards. I believe the second list is stronger even if your first list is faster. The problem Bomat has is two fold. First he's only doing one damage per turn that he lands a blow. If your opponent has a bigger threat on the board he's stone walled and can't do any damage. If he dies before you sac him then his primary purpose of providing reach is wasted. You could make the argument that they used removal but that isn't always the case either. Liliana the Last hope can kill him by pinging him, some other creatures bring in battlefield effects that might ping him, and he could be hit with something like Searing Blaze.
The hand I outlined above is indeed slower than the hand you proposed but look at what it has going for it. Two Eidolons in most games back to back could be killer. Against your list that has more one drops it can be down right punishing. If you don't draw anymore lands then those Shard Volleys end up being dead cards or major hindrances if you're forced to use them. The Lightning Helix/Sovereign Bite hand threatens you with 6 damage and 6 life gain and you have no method of preventing it. Against most aggro decks you might be in a situation where those Bomats can't reliably attack and if you do manage to get the effect off you've still spent mana in order to get cards back rather than dealing immediate damage to your opponent. So while the hand I listed above, Rakdos or RW is slower it's a far more powerful hand. This is why "pure speed" is kind of missing the mark versus consistency. Slow doesn't always equate to bad if that slow really makes it hard for your opponent to function. It's especially bad if your opponent can't rid themselves of those eidolons and if you're forced to cast through your own it isn't to bad when Sovereign Bite and Lightning Helix will ensure you only take 1 damage even if both Eidolon's hit the field.
See why Sovereign Bite is so good and should be mainboarded? Running Bump in the Night main as your only black spell (again main board) is mostly playing mono red with a single splash for a single card. It's no different than a RW list only running Boros Charm (nearly ALL RW lists are running both Charm and Helix even if the number of Helix is two.) main board and there's a reason for it. I know the desire to make a RB list to be "very" different in playstyle from white is temping but there's no reason to ignore the tried and true formulae at times. Instead, you have to look to the side board as the reason to switch to black and ensure your list is as close to the tried and true list as possible. It's just that consistent. Our biggest weakness is not having access to both Destructive Revelry and Path to Exile at the same time. By a single Sacred Foundry or Stomping Ground you have to pick one or the other. I'm thinking Path might be the better choice over Revelry.
Finally I want to point out that we don't want Fatal Push it just isn't good enough in our current meta. There are too many threats we need to get rid of immediately that Fatal Push just doesn't touch. It's tempting because it's one mana but at the same time it falls significantly short. There's also the problem that the most reliable means of activating Fatal Push is by triggering a fetch but wouldn't we rather be saving our fetches for Searing Blaze? It just doesn't mesh well with our strategies.
Again, not trying to shut you down! If you want to test with that build go for it. I can be off base and wrong and it could turn out better in practice than on paper. I don't want to ever point to someone and say "You're wrong." I think I'm catching Eclonitis and have just been really analyzing our choices and becoming pickier about what is and isn't playable which there's nothing wrong with. Also being part of a team has changed the way I look at deck building in general.
What we do have going Black is as I mentioned, Contaminated Ground which is superior to Molten Rain. We also have access to Rakdos Charm which as you acknowledged is great for the current meta. If you're going black go for that instead of simply more one drops. We already have the more one drops play via Bump in the Night.
Next I want to address is Boros Charm having multiple modes. This is true but the times that they come up and matter for a game finish is probably about as often as I close out games with a six mana flash back finish from a bump in the night or two. I've won quite a few games with this finish but not enough to matter. I've played Naya Burn and RW burn as well (Burn is the only archetype I seriously play) and I've rarely used the other modes for Boros Charm. Sometimes I pushed through leyline of sanctity with double strike victories or saved my creatures with make creatures indestructible but these rarely come up. It's far more often "4 to the face."
As for Ramunap Ruins I'll test it but I'm really not expecting much. This new meta is very fast and I'm wary of taking any more damage.
I want to talk again to this card Ramunap ruins may be played in our deck. I am testing more to more variant version of Burn with or without shard volleys, with or without lavamancer, 18 to 20 lands. I have personally an hidden talent to systematically draw a land after fetch or do the classic one-burn-from-lethal-topdeck-land game lost.
Online I am doing series of GP training with 4 ramunap ruins. You exposed your arguments against that card because of the ping you take then "if I reach 5 lands, I have already lost". Well, I am totally disagree and advocate for that card.
You guys assume to play 20 lands version which means pretty much to hit three lands on table. A land with three hands, we keep. If you draw a land that is fine. But we can afford to have maximum four lands on the field because every other draw of land means like you skip your drawing phase. It is very terrible. Ramunap ruins allows us to just Shock the opponent. We can afford to take the ping sometimes. The reach of this card is real. I don't count so many times when it happens.
Then there some situations where the ability of this land would be better than casting a spell. Against control, what they do ? Nothing. Take your 2 damages and die, or if you passed your turn to play on mine you skip a turn for nothing.
When we are to sequence our spells, with five lands on table because we were unlucky, we can start by this one.
It is not barbarian ring as you told me many times elconquistador but be honest guys, why are you still splitting on this card when one of our main problem is lands after the fourth one ? Especially when we play helix to minimise this fact (same as ping fetch or 3 from shock) and win the race.
I am now on this :
3 mountains, 8 fetches, 1 ground, 2 foundry, 4 ruins, 2 vantage.
The reason I down to 2 vantage is because at 20 lands the probability that it comes tapped is higher.
2) I would also have your opinion about the sideboard: would you prefer to have 2 lavamancer or 2 searing blood ? Considering that you play 20 land list with 4-off every cards.
3) I asked this question on lavaspike and I think it would probably be useful in this topic: if we play 2 Ensnaring bridge and 2 path to exile in our sideboard, how to side them ?
I mean, against death shadow, value town, affinity, hollow one, humans, etc, etc. What am I supposed to bring against that match-up ? Should I bring only bridge or should I bring only path or should I bring both cards ? Then why ?
Ramunap Ruins isn't something I'd play outside of a budget mono red build for much the same reason as Elcon just listed. In a budget red build I'd use it simply because we have fewer good cards to get that last bit of damage to close out the game. However, here, we're talking about a budget list that isn't going to be as consistent as the fine tuned lists that actually put up results in events larger than an FNM. That one damage each time you use it for a red source adds up and sometimes (although it doesn't happen much) you're going to need to fetch a mountain with your fetches. I think one of your big issues is the fact that you're running only 8 fetches. You should really run the gamut of 10.
Look, I get what you're saying about closing out some games that allow you to get more than 4 mana but I'm going to make the presumption, based on experience, that what you're experiencing is confirmation bias. Let's talk about a relevant example. I play Rakdos Burn and have talked about it in length here on these forums. One of the reasons I run it is to have more one drops via Bump In the Night. However, the reasons I advocate Bump's effectiveness is as an additional 4 lavaspike. Not because it can be flashed back. Have I won games from flashing it back? Yes but those are rare. Here's another thing.. bump isn't costing me 1 life each turn like it would if I had two Ramunap ruins in my opening hand.
As for your question on side board.. Searing Blood is amazing for this meta and I wouldn't run a sideboard without it. At the same time I think you should be running Grim Lavamancers in your main. If you take a look at the winning burn lists nearly every list has at least 1 grim lavamancer. I don't believe you need any for your side. Also most of us are in agreement at this point and are moving away from the bridge plan. While it can close out games there's just too much variance and when you tap out just to have it removed it sets you back pretty far. As a burn deck we want to eliminate our opponent as quickly as possible so setting yourself back an entire turn is not an efficient way to win your gameplan.
This isn't just for burn: it is a major flaw to assume that pros are better than average with every single deck.
Pros typically understand decks, even aside from playing them, by having the sheer number of games against them but even then you're absolutely right. You can't truly know the in's and outs of a deck until you have played for many reps with said deck. Not everyone is going to be able to expertly pilot each deck either. I agree 100%.
Phew, okay was way too sick for a while there. GP Pittsburgh weekend went like this over the course of five side events:
1-2 in a double prize, 2-0-1 (split at the end) in the second double
1-2 in one single, 2-1, 3-0 in the others (the evening one of course, damn kid wouldn't split and let me go home)
I've been on a 19 land, 1 shard volley, 1 grim lavamancer, 3 helix build for the past few weeks. I'm looking at dropping the volley for a 20th land. I just had too many one-landers mulled or borderline keeps end up going nowhere. OR I drop the volley for the 4th helix, because a one-land hand with volley is awkward even if there are a couple of swiftspears or something else that could justify a keep in certain situations.
What I did really like, though, was finally being able to run DRev in the side as opposed to wear/tear and smash to smithereens on a split. It took me a couple of games to get used to thinking about fetching the stomping ground after not having it for two months.
That's my big issue with shard volley. Even at 20 lands the possible situation of a one lander with shard volley is very real or a situation where you're stuck on two lands, have a shard volley, and a bunch of two drops. In either situation Shard Volley becomes a hindrance. I'd drop the shard volley for another Helix. Personally I prefer 20 lands in a RW or RWg shell. I justify 19 lands with my RBg variant due to the 4 Bumps. Probably go down to 3 skullcracks for that 20th land. Right now in the current meta I believe Helix > Skullcrack.
indeed shrine of burning rage was meant to make burn deck more of a tempo strat than aggro, isnt strong anymore because it was brought up for a meta filled up with GRIXIS DEATH SHADOW, instead of siding in destructive revelry id go for path to exile , since it can hit courser of kruphix some fat knight of the reliquary or scavenging ooze, pro players actually understimate burn thinking it is a 3x7= 21 and easy to pilot deck , last night i was watching a stream from jeff hoogland playing burn where he commited a lot of mistakes he even said burn isnt tier 1 anymore
The amusing thing about this is that Burn has dropped from Tier 1 just to be Tier 1 a month or two later. The meta is constantly shifting but the sheer number of 5-0+ wins Burn has had over the past three years isn't something that people can deny. When we're hated out our win% drops quite a bit but as soon as it does people stop hating us out and.. history repeats. Burn is always a safe meta deck because of the consistency. We'll always perform at least "well."
I built a budget burn deck for a friend of mine and he's been able to steal some 3-1 wins at our highly competitive LGS. This is what it looks like since he doesn't exactly have very much funds.
My philosophy has always been if you're building on a budget you still have to stay true to the deck at hand. This mono red version of burn remains true to burn. The core spells are almost absolutely identical and in there you have much the same power level as a burn deck. You lose lightning helix, unfortunately, and on top of that boros charm. Flames of the blood hand is a more expensive boros charm but it doubles as another skullcrack/charm. In a life gain meta you have 6 "Prevent lifegain" effects. 7 post side board. Bomat Courier is great because while he doesn't do as much as goblin guide he can potentially refuel your hand. This makes up for the lack of damage you're getting by replacing him.
Harsh Mentor makes a great budget replacement for Eidolon of the great revel as in modern he has a lot of targets that he hits. In the matchups where he's not good he makes an excellent choice to pull out and side board something different. Typically traditional burn has no room for him but he can be explosive in the right matches and okay for a few others. In this case since Eidolon is out he makes for a great second choice.
Mono Red burn on a budget may be missing some of it's better options but it has the advantage in a few instances. No shocks or fetches means no damage to yourself. Harsh Mentor is explosive in certain games. You have more anti-life gain hate and it's easy to build upgrades into it.
I'd start with replacing the Bomat's with Goblin Guide, Harsh Mentor with Eidolon of the Great Revel, Hellspark Elemental with good ol' grim lavamancer. As for Ghitu Lavarunner? You could replace Hellspark Elemental with him if you'd like. I wouldn't have more than two that way you increase your odds of drawing him further in the game when he'll come out as a budget goblin guide. Running four you run the risk of drawing multiples in your opening hand which isn't as good. You want to come out swinging. I personally like Hellspark Elemental because he's great in any matchup involving heavy removal or counter spells. They either counter/remove him twice and 2-1 themselves or they let him resolve. Not to mention he's great to run into tokens and weenies as the trample oftentimes let's him sneak some damage in. This deck is actually great for sneaking in damage in the long game for that you have:
Volcanic Fallout, Ramunap Ruins, Hellspark Elemental, and Harsh Mentor if he sticks around.
If you think amulet is better than alpine moon then you clearly have no clue about combo decks in general. Let me draw my entire deck then think that amulet will protect you, it's cool for us hehe
What i mean is, alpine attack the engine, amulet only act on the kill card. It's way better to grip the engine, because if the engine works, you can easily find solutions (wich you have, at least after side)
Why are we looking at Amulet only in the lens of combo decks? There's a lot of decks that Amulet of Safekeeping will effect. On the other hand Alpine Moon doesn't hit all combo decks either. It's a very narrow card that only takes out utility lands. Alpine Moon is great against Tron and Valakut but I'm drawing a blank on what else it really effects. Not saying you specifically but many seem to gloss over the text and thinks it turns a land into a mountain but it doesn't. The land can still be tapped for any color.
On the other hand Amulet of Safekeeping is interesting sideboard tech that has a far bigger range of usefulness.
2
Cleansing Nova
Isolate
Graveyard Marshal
Goblin Instigator
1
The rest
Reprints: Ajani's Pridemate, Mentor of the Meek, Duress, Reclamation Sage, Scapeshift, Enigma Drake, Crucible of Worlds
The circle is now complete. 8th and 9th introduced Tron into the format, and M19 brings Alpine Moon and Infernal Reckoning.
People will play Alpine Moon in their decks, but if you do, please think carefully about which matchups you'll board it in against. Your opponent can only have up to 4 copies of the card you're going to name, and Alpine Moon does not destroy or stop them from playing the named land, or even turn it into a Mountain like Blood Moon does. Instead it turns the land into a painless City of Brass.
Elves and Spirits get 2-mana lords. Elves was a decent deck to begin with and they could use a lord that doubles as a mana sink. Spirits gets to pump their Mausoleum Wanderer and get their Spell Queller out of Bolt range.
The card I'm most excited to play is Stitcher's Supplier. I feel it makes Greater Gargadon+Bridge from Below Dredge a thing again. Gravecrawler/Vengevine decks are also a possibility, but in my experience the mana bases in those decks leave much to be desired.
card name: # of decks found on mtgtop8
WARNING: contains MTGO decklists, which are not selected at random
If the numbers below seem a little low, that's because Dominaria has only been out 2 months (vs the usual 3 between Standard set releases).
Benalish Marshal: 1
Board the Weatherlight: 0
Dauntless Bodyguard: 0
History of Benalia: 0
Lyra Dawnbringer: 6
Seal Away: 0 Shalai, Voice of Plenty: 27
Urza's Ruinous Blast: 0
Artificer's Assistant: 0
Karn's Temporal Sundering: 0
Merfolk Trickster: 9
Naban, Dean of Iteration: 0
Naru Meha, Master Wizard: 0
Precognition Field: 1
Tempest Djinn: 0
The Antiquities War: 13
Unwind: 2
Wizard's Retort: 0
Cast Down: 2
Divest: 0
Phyrexian Scriptures: 0
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate: 0
Yawgmoth's Vile Offering: 1
Ghitu Lavarunner: 0
Goblin Chainwhirler: 10
Goblin Warchief: 2
Jaya Ballard: 0
Skirk Prospector: 5
Squee, the Immortal: 2
The Flame of Keld: 1
Adventurous Impulse: 2
Broken Bond: 10
Marwyn, the Nurturer: 2
Steel Leaf Champion: 3
Sylvan Awakening: 0
Adeliz, the Cinder Wind: 0 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria: 51 Damping Sphere: 214 Karn, Scion of Urza: 51
Mox Amber: 1
Powerstone Shard: 0
Traxos, Scourge of Kroog: 0
Zhalfirin Void: 3
Dominaria has taught me two things:
1) I love combo decks too much and overrated Skirk Prospector. Trying not to do that with Stitcher's Supplier now...
2) 2-mana removal spells should be treated with as much distrust as punisher cards. They always tempt you, "I can kill any creature, except those that are _____" (untapped, legendary, nonblack, nonartifact, etc) and you think the downside isn't that bad. NO, it's smoke and mirrors. Match Terminate and we'll talk.
The most-played card out of Dominaria was Damping Sphere. However, stream monsters will be quick to tell you that one GP dominated by KCI and Tron invalidates 2 months worth of data. Thanks, guys.
The next three most-played cards are all legendary creatures/planeswalkers, fitting the theme of the set: Karn in Affinity/Tron, Teferi in UW/Jeskai, Shalai in Company decks. Teferi gets touted as "better than Jace, the Mind Sculptor" but if you look at the numbers, starting 29/4/18 there were 51 recorded decks with Teferi on mtgtop8, and 77 with Jace. Even if you exclude the cherrypicked Leagues, you get 43 (Teferi) against 60 (Jace). Jace can go into nonwhite decks such as Blue Moon.
I think Alpine moon will go in almost no decks in modern because there is better anti tron hate across most decks. So Idk why you listed it as a 4 when spirits got two maindeckable cards
Call it 1 maindeckable card, 1 sideboard card. I agree that Alpine Moon isn't going to see much long term play. It's just not as good as people seem to be thinking.
I agree with almost everything you said, Reslin. As one of the bigger advocates for Gonti's Machinations on the forum, I obviously don't agree that it's unplayable. But, I do agree you need a high number of fetches to make it playable, and whether or not a person wants to do that would be their call. But, I'm absolutely stoked for Sovereign's Bite. I've been playing Mardu burn up until now and like you said, this was the card that Rakdos needed. The deck hasn't been competitive up until now. I've only begun my testing with it, so I don't have any real experience yet, but I have high hopes and your testing echoes that. I never thought of Go For the Throat as the black Path replacement, but it makes all the sense in the world. Imo, it's the best replacement bar none, like you said.
I agree that there's just no suitable replacement for Path, so I'm not trying to. I'm playing a RBw list right now, and that gives me the benefit of letting me keep enchantment removal.
Yeah, unfortunately it isn't as good as Path but I will definitely advocate it as our best removal spell. We already have enough artifact hate to not need terminate and our removal spell not having red is key for hitting things we want to hit that have protection. If you're running a splash of white then you can just use path anyway. As I mentioned even a "Exile target creature and take three." would more than be a viable enough removal spell. So shocking (or using a fetch making it a bolt) to get a Sacred Foundry for Path isn't a bad idea. In my meta there's enough anti-burn enchantments running around that I can't afford to give up revelry but your mileage might be different. For the meantime from my testing "usually" Go for the Throat is good enough but there's been cases (against decks you want removal and can seriously race you) that it's detrimental in the place of Path or just not good enough. Still, we're so so close now. If RWg Burn is Tier 1. I'd make the argument that we're Tier 1.5. If RWg Burn is Tier 1.5 then I'd make the argument that we're Tier 2 at this point. That's still plenty competitive.
I love that shock removal spell you made up. That could see print, easily.
Haha. Thanks. It's my dream black removal print. Also sounds like a suitable drawback I can envision black having. I doubt I'll ever see it but a man can dream, right?
List looks solid! The only thing I'd change is the fatal push to Exquisite Firecraft but that depends how much control you have in your meta. Extra Searing Blood is also not a bad idea. You could also go up one searing blood and one Rakdos Charm for minus two Fatal push. Depends what you need. Let us know how it works out for you. Contaminated Ground has really been pulling it's weight for me and I seriously stand by the statement that Contaminated Ground + Rakdos Charm is why you go black. Though, Rain of Gore in certain metas gets a nod as well.
Yeah, with your side that's exactly what I'd do and completely agree there. I just have a different board than you. We're definitely the control game against affinity. I personally board in 3 rakdos charm, 2 searing blood, and 4 destructive revelry which gives me 9 cards against affinity. Just like your changes. So sounds solid.
Go for the Throat is really good for RB Burn. You don't need to bring it in affinity when we already have access to Rakdos Charm if you want more artifact removal on top of a single stomping ground for revelry (or smash to smithereens if you don't have revelry) we should have plenty of removal for artifacts but Terminate is a good choice as well if you're not running into protection from red creatures. If there's merfolk in your meta or korr firewalker it can be a consideration. That being said.. yeah Sovereign's bite is really pulling it's weight in our RB lists. I'm also on the 19 lands plan.
I'm assuming where you listed 3 skullcrack in your sideboard was meant to be searing blood? Some of us are against bridge because casting it for 3 and having it removed meant tapping out to achieve nothing. Bridge can be good but some of us feels it's too much mana to not achieve our game plan. That being said, it's very popular and many burn lists that have posted results have had it in their side which is undeniable. However, there have also been lists that didn't. So it's definitely not a necessary side board and could probably be called one of our side board flex spots.
Most of those Path To Exile can hit just the same.
By the way did anyone see the list at Sao Paulo of Burn that made it to top 16 without any monastery swiftspears?
Based on your criteria and the fact that you gravitate towards aggro lists when learning a format (/game) and your budget.. I'd recommend 8 Whack Goblins, Mono-red Burn, Mono Green Stompy, and Abzan Rites isn't too hard to play which you can with your budget. I'd start here and see if any of those I listed interest you as a player. From there you can learn the game, the format, and have a decent chance to perform well at the FNM level before moving on to other decks. Abzan Rites to warn you isn't a fast aggressive deck but it's certainly a powerful deck for your budget range. I'd at least check it out before dismissing it.
I think the Korr Firewalker might have been a good call here. 3 Burn Lists went 8-0. So there might have been a decent amount of burn showing. Still, I also find ancient grudge a strange choice given that we have better artifact removal.
I want to preface and say I don't intend to be the guy that screams "No you're wrong!" but I want to provide an example why the list above isn't the way I'd go by using a rather extreme example (because I can name a ton of little scenarios or stress something in order to make my point.) In your list you've axed Sovereign's Bite in the main, Eidolon of the Great Revel, and added two shard volleys in the place most lists run lightning helix (or as I propose Sovereign's bite) you did this in order to bring in some more hasty creatures as well as some more speed. However, I'm going to attempt to reveal why I think pure speed isn't cutting it with an example that would occur if you drew a hand of everything you replaced. So let's say you start with a hand of..
Two Bomat Couriers, Two Shard Volley, Two lands, a Grim Lavamancer, and some other card. Versus:
Two Eidolon of the Great Revels, Two lightning helix/Sovereign's Bite, Two lands, and two other random cards. I believe the second list is stronger even if your first list is faster. The problem Bomat has is two fold. First he's only doing one damage per turn that he lands a blow. If your opponent has a bigger threat on the board he's stone walled and can't do any damage. If he dies before you sac him then his primary purpose of providing reach is wasted. You could make the argument that they used removal but that isn't always the case either. Liliana the Last hope can kill him by pinging him, some other creatures bring in battlefield effects that might ping him, and he could be hit with something like Searing Blaze.
The hand I outlined above is indeed slower than the hand you proposed but look at what it has going for it. Two Eidolons in most games back to back could be killer. Against your list that has more one drops it can be down right punishing. If you don't draw anymore lands then those Shard Volleys end up being dead cards or major hindrances if you're forced to use them. The Lightning Helix/Sovereign Bite hand threatens you with 6 damage and 6 life gain and you have no method of preventing it. Against most aggro decks you might be in a situation where those Bomats can't reliably attack and if you do manage to get the effect off you've still spent mana in order to get cards back rather than dealing immediate damage to your opponent. So while the hand I listed above, Rakdos or RW is slower it's a far more powerful hand. This is why "pure speed" is kind of missing the mark versus consistency. Slow doesn't always equate to bad if that slow really makes it hard for your opponent to function. It's especially bad if your opponent can't rid themselves of those eidolons and if you're forced to cast through your own it isn't to bad when Sovereign Bite and Lightning Helix will ensure you only take 1 damage even if both Eidolon's hit the field.
See why Sovereign Bite is so good and should be mainboarded? Running Bump in the Night main as your only black spell (again main board) is mostly playing mono red with a single splash for a single card. It's no different than a RW list only running Boros Charm (nearly ALL RW lists are running both Charm and Helix even if the number of Helix is two.) main board and there's a reason for it. I know the desire to make a RB list to be "very" different in playstyle from white is temping but there's no reason to ignore the tried and true formulae at times. Instead, you have to look to the side board as the reason to switch to black and ensure your list is as close to the tried and true list as possible. It's just that consistent. Our biggest weakness is not having access to both Destructive Revelry and Path to Exile at the same time. By a single Sacred Foundry or Stomping Ground you have to pick one or the other. I'm thinking Path might be the better choice over Revelry.
Finally I want to point out that we don't want Fatal Push it just isn't good enough in our current meta. There are too many threats we need to get rid of immediately that Fatal Push just doesn't touch. It's tempting because it's one mana but at the same time it falls significantly short. There's also the problem that the most reliable means of activating Fatal Push is by triggering a fetch but wouldn't we rather be saving our fetches for Searing Blaze? It just doesn't mesh well with our strategies.
Again, not trying to shut you down! If you want to test with that build go for it. I can be off base and wrong and it could turn out better in practice than on paper. I don't want to ever point to someone and say "You're wrong." I think I'm catching Eclonitis and have just been really analyzing our choices and becoming pickier about what is and isn't playable which there's nothing wrong with. Also being part of a team has changed the way I look at deck building in general.
What we do have going Black is as I mentioned, Contaminated Ground which is superior to Molten Rain. We also have access to Rakdos Charm which as you acknowledged is great for the current meta. If you're going black go for that instead of simply more one drops. We already have the more one drops play via Bump in the Night.
Next I want to address is Boros Charm having multiple modes. This is true but the times that they come up and matter for a game finish is probably about as often as I close out games with a six mana flash back finish from a bump in the night or two. I've won quite a few games with this finish but not enough to matter. I've played Naya Burn and RW burn as well (Burn is the only archetype I seriously play) and I've rarely used the other modes for Boros Charm. Sometimes I pushed through leyline of sanctity with double strike victories or saved my creatures with make creatures indestructible but these rarely come up. It's far more often "4 to the face."
As for Ramunap Ruins I'll test it but I'm really not expecting much. This new meta is very fast and I'm wary of taking any more damage.
Ramunap Ruins isn't something I'd play outside of a budget mono red build for much the same reason as Elcon just listed. In a budget red build I'd use it simply because we have fewer good cards to get that last bit of damage to close out the game. However, here, we're talking about a budget list that isn't going to be as consistent as the fine tuned lists that actually put up results in events larger than an FNM. That one damage each time you use it for a red source adds up and sometimes (although it doesn't happen much) you're going to need to fetch a mountain with your fetches. I think one of your big issues is the fact that you're running only 8 fetches. You should really run the gamut of 10.
Look, I get what you're saying about closing out some games that allow you to get more than 4 mana but I'm going to make the presumption, based on experience, that what you're experiencing is confirmation bias. Let's talk about a relevant example. I play Rakdos Burn and have talked about it in length here on these forums. One of the reasons I run it is to have more one drops via Bump In the Night. However, the reasons I advocate Bump's effectiveness is as an additional 4 lavaspike. Not because it can be flashed back. Have I won games from flashing it back? Yes but those are rare. Here's another thing.. bump isn't costing me 1 life each turn like it would if I had two Ramunap ruins in my opening hand.
As for your question on side board.. Searing Blood is amazing for this meta and I wouldn't run a sideboard without it. At the same time I think you should be running Grim Lavamancers in your main. If you take a look at the winning burn lists nearly every list has at least 1 grim lavamancer. I don't believe you need any for your side. Also most of us are in agreement at this point and are moving away from the bridge plan. While it can close out games there's just too much variance and when you tap out just to have it removed it sets you back pretty far. As a burn deck we want to eliminate our opponent as quickly as possible so setting yourself back an entire turn is not an efficient way to win your gameplan.
These are just my thoughts on the matter.
Pros typically understand decks, even aside from playing them, by having the sheer number of games against them but even then you're absolutely right. You can't truly know the in's and outs of a deck until you have played for many reps with said deck. Not everyone is going to be able to expertly pilot each deck either. I agree 100%.
That's my big issue with shard volley. Even at 20 lands the possible situation of a one lander with shard volley is very real or a situation where you're stuck on two lands, have a shard volley, and a bunch of two drops. In either situation Shard Volley becomes a hindrance. I'd drop the shard volley for another Helix. Personally I prefer 20 lands in a RW or RWg shell. I justify 19 lands with my RBg variant due to the 4 Bumps. Probably go down to 3 skullcracks for that 20th land. Right now in the current meta I believe Helix > Skullcrack.
The amusing thing about this is that Burn has dropped from Tier 1 just to be Tier 1 a month or two later. The meta is constantly shifting but the sheer number of 5-0+ wins Burn has had over the past three years isn't something that people can deny. When we're hated out our win% drops quite a bit but as soon as it does people stop hating us out and.. history repeats. Burn is always a safe meta deck because of the consistency. We'll always perform at least "well."
18 Mountain
2 Ramunap Ruins
Creatures
4 Bomat Courier
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Harsh Mentor
2 Hellspark Elemental
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Skullcrack
4 Searing Blood
2 Flames of the Blood Hand
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Dragon's Claw
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Rending Volley
1 Flames of the Blood Hand
2 Molten Rain
2 Volcanic Fallout
My philosophy has always been if you're building on a budget you still have to stay true to the deck at hand. This mono red version of burn remains true to burn. The core spells are almost absolutely identical and in there you have much the same power level as a burn deck. You lose lightning helix, unfortunately, and on top of that boros charm. Flames of the blood hand is a more expensive boros charm but it doubles as another skullcrack/charm. In a life gain meta you have 6 "Prevent lifegain" effects. 7 post side board. Bomat Courier is great because while he doesn't do as much as goblin guide he can potentially refuel your hand. This makes up for the lack of damage you're getting by replacing him.
Harsh Mentor makes a great budget replacement for Eidolon of the great revel as in modern he has a lot of targets that he hits. In the matchups where he's not good he makes an excellent choice to pull out and side board something different. Typically traditional burn has no room for him but he can be explosive in the right matches and okay for a few others. In this case since Eidolon is out he makes for a great second choice.
Mono Red burn on a budget may be missing some of it's better options but it has the advantage in a few instances. No shocks or fetches means no damage to yourself. Harsh Mentor is explosive in certain games. You have more anti-life gain hate and it's easy to build upgrades into it.
I'd start with replacing the Bomat's with Goblin Guide, Harsh Mentor with Eidolon of the Great Revel, Hellspark Elemental with good ol' grim lavamancer. As for Ghitu Lavarunner? You could replace Hellspark Elemental with him if you'd like. I wouldn't have more than two that way you increase your odds of drawing him further in the game when he'll come out as a budget goblin guide. Running four you run the risk of drawing multiples in your opening hand which isn't as good. You want to come out swinging. I personally like Hellspark Elemental because he's great in any matchup involving heavy removal or counter spells. They either counter/remove him twice and 2-1 themselves or they let him resolve. Not to mention he's great to run into tokens and weenies as the trample oftentimes let's him sneak some damage in. This deck is actually great for sneaking in damage in the long game for that you have:
Volcanic Fallout, Ramunap Ruins, Hellspark Elemental, and Harsh Mentor if he sticks around.
Why are we looking at Amulet only in the lens of combo decks? There's a lot of decks that Amulet of Safekeeping will effect. On the other hand Alpine Moon doesn't hit all combo decks either. It's a very narrow card that only takes out utility lands. Alpine Moon is great against Tron and Valakut but I'm drawing a blank on what else it really effects. Not saying you specifically but many seem to gloss over the text and thinks it turns a land into a mountain but it doesn't. The land can still be tapped for any color.
On the other hand Amulet of Safekeeping is interesting sideboard tech that has a far bigger range of usefulness.
On the other hand Amulet of Safekeeping is interesting sideboard tech.
Haha. Thanks. It's my dream black removal print. Also sounds like a suitable drawback I can envision black having. I doubt I'll ever see it but a man can dream, right?