I took the deck to 4-0, 3-1 and 1-1-drop in side events, losing 2 rounds only to my own mana base (some games you mull into off-color openers and don't get there).
In the (11 round!) main event I went 2-0/1-2/2-0/2-1/0-2/2-0/1-2 before dropping, losing round 2 to a very poor play mistake (win on the table) coupled with a topdecked bonfire against me, and round 5 to two consecutive nut draws from Jund (turn 1 pillar mana dork, turn 2 farseek, turn 3 huntmaster, turn 4 thragtusk, turn 5 miracle-bonfire my team). Final loss came to an Aristocrats, which is very tough if you don't hit the RIP in a timely manner. Falkenrath Aristocrat is difficult to deal with as well.
The deck is very strong against Jund and Control, where Olivia and multiple Sphinx's Revelations are the only threats you really need to worry about. Luckily, those decks are an overwhelming majority of the field at SCG events. Domri, in particular, is very powerful.
The deck's weakest points appear to be its own mana base, very aggressive aggo starts (limited life gain to pull yourself back up), and Aristocrats.
The changes I would make would include:
-2 Blasphemous Act (Too cute, needs to be 1 mana less)
-2 Ghor-Clan Rampager (Underwhelming)
+2 Selesnya Charm (Can hit opposing Thundermaws, Falkenraths, Olivias, and pumps)
+2 Mizzium Mortars (Needs some targeted kill that's good late game)
Board changes:
-1 Assemble the Legion (Very slow and poor against a bonfire heavy format)
+1 Garruk, Primal Hunter / 4th Bonfire / Gruul Charm / 3rd Selesny Charm (needs testing)
In short, very strong deck for the current meta and hopefully some additional testing will tune it better.
Good luck!
Ran an extremely similar list to 6-2 (10th) at a PTQ this weekend and made the -2 act to +2 Mortars mainboard pre tournament which worked great for me.
Also went to 4 Domris, which I never hated drawing, he took over so many matches.
Sel Charm was great as well, I ran 3 in the board and they were sided in 7 of 8 matches. Only exclusion was mono red match.
This is where I'm sitting right now for next weekends PTQ.
Any thoughts are welcome. I want a strong midgame, and the ability to hang in early game.
Going into a relatively unknown Meta, would expect a lot of Blitz Agro and Reanimator, possibly a few other Mid Range decks.
Sideboard may not be exact, running it from Memory.
Things I wouldn't mind finding room for Main deck are Selesnya Charms, but I detest lowering the creature count anymore.
Any good plans vs. Reanimator would be appreciated as well. Purify's seem to want a spot in the board maybe? I seem to do Ok vs it if it plays fair (No Unburial Rites) but when it doesn't it's really tough pairing.
Anyone had any success running this in Naya Midrange?
I ran 2 copies on Friday night and had mixed feelings. Lots of times it was just too slow, but a few times being able to tutor for Centaur Healer, Huntmaster of the Fells and Thragtusk, when behind, Or Hellkite, Aurilia, Resto Angel for a finisher was a great feeling.
It's 2 more non creatures that Domri can't put in your hand as well which is a big drawback for me.
Not a fan of the art nor the card choice. Definitely not something that will get me excited about playing FNM. I wish it was just Reliquary Tower every month
After a long break from the game I had an arguement with a judge and opponent that I could put "Damage on the Stack".
The judge was newer, and knew you couldn't do that, but didn't remember when you could.
Not that I made a big stink about it, I just thought the judge was bad untill a more experienced player heard about me trying that and told me that had been changed.
That's where I ended up as well. I have a 3 Smiter/2 Finks split, with a third Finks in the board. Its not worth bending over backwards just to shore up one match up, especially since Smiter is decent against aggro already and I really want to beat the blue decks.
Jund's mana is so smooth thanks to Blackcleave Cliffs, but it looks like our higher creature power is putting us on top.
So I have more testing in before calling it a night. Summer Bloom is another great match up for us. We have too much discard and pressure for that deck to do anything if it doesn't have its perfect nut draw. Even then, we have Path to Exile...
Tomorrow, filling in the match ups that I have not been able to play yet this season with this Junk list. Mono-U Tron, Delver, the mirror, and a few others. I also want to cover Affinity again and see how Bogle works out. I have some SB slots to play with and I may want to just say "screw it" and run Back To Nature to beat that deck.
If it helps, in our testing, the jund/junk mirror honeslty came down to whoever stuck a confidant. The card advantage won about 90% of those matches.
So lets talk about Loxodon Smiter vs. Kitchen Finks.
In general:
Smiter is a 4/4 for 1gw. Uncounterable, has discard clause, but has no abilities once it is actually on the field.
Kitchen Finks is a 3/2 for 1 and 2 in a combination of W or G. Can be countered and discarded, but gaons life and has Persist. It basically has two bodies for the price of one!
Smiter is going to be best against: Other Liliana decks (Jund, Junk, BUG, etc.), other fair decks with counters (UWR, UW control, Mono-U Tron), and decks where the most important creatures have 3 power or four toughness (UWR, Pod).
Finks is going to best against: All aggro decks, control decks without exile effects (Tron) and any matches where there are NO Deathrite Shamans or x/4 creatures.
So lets break it down with the biggest match ups and see how things fare:
UWR:
Smiter can't be stopped by their Remands or Mana Leaks, and it attacks through Angels or can block Geist even through a Eiganjo Castle activation. Does not die to Bolt or Electrolyze.
Finks can be countered, but if it sticks then it can still fight with most of the deck, or at least make trades. Finks does die to all of the removal, but it has a "part 2" so its not so bad.
Winner: Smiter
Jund:
Smiter can catch a Lili +1 and be cast for free, although in real games I have never seen it happen. The 4/4 body keeps Smiter from dying to Bolt, leaving only Lili's sac and non damage removal to deal with it.
Finks has a body that survives the Lili sac better, and it brushes off the first removal spell thrown at it. Being an x/2, however, makes Finks trade with every creature except for Shaman.
Winner: Its even. I'd be happy with either creature in this case.
Junk/Mirror:
Bolt isn't relevant here, so besides possible Lili shenanigans, Finks wins this one.
Eggs:
Both are terrible here. The life or counterability does not matter, and all we care about is racing Eggs before it can go off. There's no winner here. I'm casting Lili over one of these every time.
Gruul:
Smiter has a 4/4 body, making it dodge Bolt or force a 2 for 1 trade. It dies quite easily to a Ghor-Clan Rampager bloodrush, as I have found in testing
Finks is the clear winner here. It also blocks everything that Gruul has, while also gaining 4 life.
Tron:
Smiter can't be countered, which matters if this is Mono-U tron. Otherwise its just a 4/4.
Finks wins this one, because while it is a bit smaller, it survives a O.Stone activation. I guess I'd rather see Finks against RG Tron, and Smiter vs. Mono-U.
So with this breakdown, should I just cut the Smiters and play Finks this week? The biggest loser here is going to be my UWR match, but its already great for me. I'll see if it gets bad tonight, but with aggro and the mirror becoming important maybe a little life gain is exactly what we need.
Our testing found both to be quite good. And it's really what you expect to see.
We found:
Smiter - Better against UWR and combo, as it's a faster clock. Play T2 smiter and have a 4-5 turn clock
Finks - Better against Agro, and helps refund some of our punishing manabase against all the other decks.
If I had to do it again, I'd probably go 3/2 Smiters/Finks, with our expected combo heavy meta. If i expected more RDW / Grull / Zoo I'd go 3/2 the other way.
But I'd definitely keep 2 Finks regardless of what you do as insurance vs fast decks and our needing g/b turn 1 and 1gw or 1bb turn 2. It hurts alot without fast lands.
I honeslty think that was Jund's biggest advantage to junk, the ability to play Blackcleave Cliffs and not need the more intensive colour combos in Turns 2 and 3.
W Round 1 - Vs Jund. Won game 1, lost game 2 on the back of T1 Deathrite, T2 Sword of War & Peace equip, smash. Won Game 3 in turns ripping his hand apart and gavoney'd lingering soul tokens.
L Round 2 - Red Deck wins, splashing for deathrite, bump, boros charm and probably sideboard stuffs. It happened so fast.. Ripped his hand apart G1, but never drew a threat or finks before he topped more burn. G2 he had the answer for spellskite, and 2 deathrites went to town on me.
L Round 3 - Kiki Pod G1 Was back and forth, he was at 3 life and topped into pod had enough with only 1 phrexian mana useage to combo into the win.
G2 ripped his hand apart, drew pridemage, he proceded to draw angel one turn, then kiki the next. No removal in hand.
I'm probably out now, but play for prize and experience.
W Round 4 - Splinter Twin. Won game one discard was boss, and rode the back of a smiter all the way. G2 T1 & T2 discard, turn 4 slaughter games. Happy the last minute change to add slaughter games finally paid off.
W Round 5 - Tron G1, T3 Karn.. Thanks for coming out. G2 & G3, Fulminators and Slaughter games for Karn both games. Ended up pathing 1 Wurmcoil, not much of a fight from Tron post board. Opponent didn't side in any alternate win cons other than Wurm, made my life easy.
L Round 6 - RUW Angels (or so I thought) - Weird deck, resto angels, mindcensors, finks. He wins Game 1 on the back of 2 flyers that I can't deal with. G2, He plays eot T4 pestermite, Oops, guess it's got twin combo in it. Had no combo hate sided in. Untaps and plays Kiki. GG. you got me.
Conclusion:
I liked the deck, The RDW matchup was super tough, but I didn't see any of the finks, would have made a huge difference. Pod, I probably should have won, I did all I could to rip his hand to nothing G2 and he still drew out of it. Hats off.
Small consulation, Our playtest group 3 of the 5 of us developed and rode Spirit jund to the top 9. Including the eventual winner of the Match.
Beers and celebrations were had after and we are sending one of our own to San Diego.
Time to start playtesting Standard for April.
Many thanks to the people here for advise and help, especially Horseshoe Crab, best of luck at yours. Wish we had more PTQ's in travelling distance here.
Do you know if reflecting pool produced any colot of mana with cavern of souls in play. I think so, but want to check before mulliganing around it.
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According to a Level 2 judge I know, Reflecting pool will tap for any colour of mana with a cavern of souls in play, it ignores the restrictions about how you can use the mana.
hmmmm 6 shocks is too many? with reliquary i want enough targets to sack, shocks only help that
Horseshoe is definitely right on that.. vs the agressive decks our mana base can put a big hurt on us and speed up their gameplan. It's another reason I'm on 3 maindeck finks right now. But I've never really gone the Knight plan, so I'm not sure how much that hurts that.
I'm also a big fan of double swamps so lili is castable under blood moon. Not sure how relevant that is anymore, but still something I try and keep.
PTQ here is in Ontario. Not the same one Good luck at yours!
Ran an extremely similar list to 6-2 (10th) at a PTQ this weekend and made the -2 act to +2 Mortars mainboard pre tournament which worked great for me.
Also went to 4 Domris, which I never hated drawing, he took over so many matches.
Sel Charm was great as well, I ran 3 in the board and they were sided in 7 of 8 matches. Only exclusion was mono red match.
Thanks.
4 Avacyn's Pilgram
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
4 Restoration Angel
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
Not Dudes
3 Farseek
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Domri Rade
1 Garruk Relentless
Land
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ground Seal
3 Centaur Healer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Boros Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
This is where I'm sitting right now for next weekends PTQ.
Any thoughts are welcome. I want a strong midgame, and the ability to hang in early game.
Going into a relatively unknown Meta, would expect a lot of Blitz Agro and Reanimator, possibly a few other Mid Range decks.
Sideboard may not be exact, running it from Memory.
Things I wouldn't mind finding room for Main deck are Selesnya Charms, but I detest lowering the creature count anymore.
Any good plans vs. Reanimator would be appreciated as well. Purify's seem to want a spot in the board maybe? I seem to do Ok vs it if it plays fair (No Unburial Rites) but when it doesn't it's really tough pairing.
Anyone had any success running this in Naya Midrange?
I ran 2 copies on Friday night and had mixed feelings. Lots of times it was just too slow, but a few times being able to tutor for Centaur Healer, Huntmaster of the Fells and Thragtusk, when behind, Or Hellkite, Aurilia, Resto Angel for a finisher was a great feeling.
It's 2 more non creatures that Domri can't put in your hand as well which is a big drawback for me.
Just wondering what others thought of this.
You spelt Farseek wrong.
Seriously though.. fringe playable and the original is way prettier imo.
The judge was newer, and knew you couldn't do that, but didn't remember when you could.
Not that I made a big stink about it, I just thought the judge was bad untill a more experienced player heard about me trying that and told me that had been changed.
Damn changing rules..
If it helps, in our testing, the jund/junk mirror honeslty came down to whoever stuck a confidant. The card advantage won about 90% of those matches.
Our testing found both to be quite good. And it's really what you expect to see.
We found:
Smiter - Better against UWR and combo, as it's a faster clock. Play T2 smiter and have a 4-5 turn clock
Finks - Better against Agro, and helps refund some of our punishing manabase against all the other decks.
If I had to do it again, I'd probably go 3/2 Smiters/Finks, with our expected combo heavy meta. If i expected more RDW / Grull / Zoo I'd go 3/2 the other way.
But I'd definitely keep 2 Finks regardless of what you do as insurance vs fast decks and our needing g/b turn 1 and 1gw or 1bb turn 2. It hurts alot without fast lands.
I honeslty think that was Jund's biggest advantage to junk, the ability to play Blackcleave Cliffs and not need the more intensive colour combos in Turns 2 and 3.
So, it didn't go so good.
Made a few changes in the last week of testing
-1 Thrun +1 Smiter
-1 Pulse +1 Inquisition
-1 Overgrown Tomb +1 Blood Crypt (For new sideboard addition)
We were expecting quite abit of combo (Twin, Tron (not really combo,but similar gameplan), and Pod)
Sideboard ended up being
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Slaughter Games
2 Spellskite
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Torpor Orb
W Round 1 - Vs Jund. Won game 1, lost game 2 on the back of T1 Deathrite, T2 Sword of War & Peace equip, smash. Won Game 3 in turns ripping his hand apart and gavoney'd lingering soul tokens.
L Round 2 - Red Deck wins, splashing for deathrite, bump, boros charm and probably sideboard stuffs. It happened so fast.. Ripped his hand apart G1, but never drew a threat or finks before he topped more burn. G2 he had the answer for spellskite, and 2 deathrites went to town on me.
L Round 3 - Kiki Pod G1 Was back and forth, he was at 3 life and topped into pod had enough with only 1 phrexian mana useage to combo into the win.
G2 ripped his hand apart, drew pridemage, he proceded to draw angel one turn, then kiki the next. No removal in hand.
I'm probably out now, but play for prize and experience.
W Round 4 - Splinter Twin. Won game one discard was boss, and rode the back of a smiter all the way. G2 T1 & T2 discard, turn 4 slaughter games. Happy the last minute change to add slaughter games finally paid off.
W Round 5 - Tron G1, T3 Karn.. Thanks for coming out. G2 & G3, Fulminators and Slaughter games for Karn both games. Ended up pathing 1 Wurmcoil, not much of a fight from Tron post board. Opponent didn't side in any alternate win cons other than Wurm, made my life easy.
L Round 6 - RUW Angels (or so I thought) - Weird deck, resto angels, mindcensors, finks. He wins Game 1 on the back of 2 flyers that I can't deal with. G2, He plays eot T4 pestermite, Oops, guess it's got twin combo in it. Had no combo hate sided in. Untaps and plays Kiki. GG. you got me.
Conclusion:
I liked the deck, The RDW matchup was super tough, but I didn't see any of the finks, would have made a huge difference. Pod, I probably should have won, I did all I could to rip his hand to nothing G2 and he still drew out of it. Hats off.
Small consulation, Our playtest group 3 of the 5 of us developed and rode Spirit jund to the top 9. Including the eventual winner of the Match.
Beers and celebrations were had after and we are sending one of our own to San Diego.
Time to start playtesting Standard for April.
Many thanks to the people here for advise and help, especially Horseshoe Crab, best of luck at yours. Wish we had more PTQ's in travelling distance here.
According to a Level 2 judge I know, Reflecting pool will tap for any colour of mana with a cavern of souls in play, it ignores the restrictions about how you can use the mana.
Horseshoe is definitely right on that.. vs the agressive decks our mana base can put a big hurt on us and speed up their gameplan. It's another reason I'm on 3 maindeck finks right now. But I've never really gone the Knight plan, so I'm not sure how much that hurts that.
I'm also a big fan of double swamps so lili is castable under blood moon. Not sure how relevant that is anymore, but still something I try and keep.
PTQ here is in Ontario. Not the same one Good luck at yours!
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Not Creatures - 18
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Path to Exile
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Gavony Township
1 Fetid Heath
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Stirring Wildwood
2 Spellskite
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Stony Silence
1 Thoughtseize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Torpor Orb
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Fulminator Mage
Expecting a fair bit of grull/zoo agro, uwx tempo, and unfortunately tron.
We'll see how it stacks up.
I've added Elspeth to my Junk list and in testing I can quite honestly say I'm trying to find room for a second one.
The 2nd +1 is absurdly good in stalled games, so few decks deal with a big beefy flyer, and if you can ever ultimate, it's probably game over.
Not to mention it can easily protect itself while ticking up to ultimate.
It really shines in the Junk/Jund mirrors, 4cc plainswalkers are tough to deal with.
Much appreciated.