As a Modern Storm player, I don't think this actually does anything against Storm. Postboard, Storm will always bring answers like Wipe Away for hate cards, and this does nothing at all to stop the Storm player from going off, except for making Gifts cost 1 more. The most effective hate proactively stops the combo from working (Damping Sphere and grave hate), and I would definitely rather the opponent have this than Lightning Bolt or Mana Leak, let alone a good Storm hate card. It's cute that in combination with other hate it locks the game up, since the desperation plan of a couple rituals into Empty the Warrens doesn't work anymore, but forcing the Storm player into desperation mode is what your sideboard cards are supposed to do single-handedly, and this does nothing on its own.
I think that's the best statement on the entire matter. I hope there's more goodwill in the future towards these cards. But maybe un-cards will be unbanned in a seasonal sense like it is now. That way people won't feel that it's going to be a thing. Maybe that'll work? Like Persephone in the Underworld, silver-bordered cards being legal (to a certain extent) not always is kind of an interesting thing.
Haha, yeah. The way I envision it, there would eventually be some silver-bordered additions to the banlist purely for power reasons, and then a separate list of "these cards are banned by default but they are legal with your playgroup's consent" for all the dexterity/collusion/multi-game cards that aren't actually too powerful, just not healthy mechanics to have in a public format. I just hope it doesn't go down where for 45 days, all the broken things ruin the format, everyone hates Un-cards, everyone hates Sheldon, and nobody ever allows silver border cards anywhere near the command zone ever again. That would make me very sad.
I feel like a lot of the stuff on the power level list is not that bad.
To me at least, the main question is whether the format is fun on a permanent basis with a banlist similar to this, more than whether some of this banlist is unnecessary. I'm no pro, so perhaps More or Less, Ineffable Blessing, Necro-Impotence, Mise, and Rare-B-Gone wouldn't wreck CompEDH, but it would probably build more goodwill to ban more things at first and let things off slowly than risk a totally broken format that makes everyone hate Un-cards as a whole.
I'd shy away from even more cards than you do. I'd shy away from all cards that mention anything from a card that isn't in Oracle like the artist, art, flavor text, watermark, rarity, collector number, expansion symbol, etc. because those things are different depending on the reprint you have of the card. It'd be best to not play with cards that don't directly break a rule. For example, these cards break the aspect that all cards with the same name are the same regardless of the expansion. That's something pretty major. I'd also avoid playing with cards that contain non-whole numbers like fractions, pi, and infinity.
While I disagree, I think this is the crux of this discussion. How much would people object to Commander following the Un-rule that not all cards with the same name have to work identically? My personal opinion and understanding is that most people wouldn't mind, it wouldn't be all that competitively relevant, and it would open up a lot of creative decks. So, the only problem with Un-sets in Commander is a couple broken cards, easily bannable.
But you clearly disagree, and if the community is on your side, perhaps it's best not to legalize Un-sets after all, since the "individual cards matter" mechanic is fundamental to silver-border.
Reading over the massive backlash against Un-cards in Commander, it seems like almost every concern could be solved with a fairly conservative banlist. There are plenty of silver-border cards that would legitimately be really fun in silver border, but at the current rate, there's little to no chance that they are legalized on any permanent basis, unless the fun-ruiners are quickly banned. So, I've drawn up a rough banlist of the cards that are either absurdly powerful, or break a meta-rule, to hopefully lead to a healthier format without completely throwing out all the interesting new cards.
"Your cards can't be physically messed with" is a pretty bad meta-rule to violate, so all these are out. Collector Protector breaks a similar meta-rule about ownership.
This is probably the most debatable section, but this seems like a reasonable starting banlist for competitive play.
Besides these offenders, does anyone actually have a problem with the rest of the Un-cards? I can understand the hate for having to deal with cards like Nerf War, but does anyone object to Grusilda or Contraptions being a thing?
Wait, what? Any land? This seems really good in Modern - there aren't many decks that run colorless lands alongside a fetchland manabase, but this is the most efficient manland ever printed - it's not like you'll be using it during the early turns, so by the time you're out of gas, you'll pretty reliably be able to use this. It might not have a home right now, but the power level is absolutely there.
As for Standard, it mostly depends on what support there is for the "Deserts in the graveyard" mechanic - this doesn't need other deserts, but with that rider on so many cards, there have to be enablers in the set for the Limited archetype to work. The question is whether they make those enablers Constructed-worthy.
Woodland Wanderer is still a thing that exists in Standard... is this any better? The Desert Faith's Fetters almost makes Desert midrange/control viable by itself, assuming we get enough good Deserts so the mana works. But if that deck wants a bomby 4-drop, I have to imagine there are more impactful options - Bristling Hydra, (sort of) Tireless Tracker, that 4/5 that draws cards from Ixalan in a few months, and if we go outside Green there's stuff like Gonti, Gideon, Kalitas, Chandra, etc.
It's nice that it eats both Avacyn and Glorybringer, but this seems like at best a dubious Sideboard card, if the Reach is really relevant in some meta.
According to MaRo, they actually DID reprint IoK, without even adding devoid. It was flavored as the cultists' ritual, so it wasn't Eldrazi magic itself, hence why it could be black, like Ayli herself. It was cut during development for causing problems in Standard.
Isn't this card insane? Venser is to this as Mystic Snake is to Counterspell (assuming you can cast Snake, of course). Even when Mystic Snake was played in Standard, it was usually alongside Venser, so their power levels in a UG deck are similar, and Counterspell is insane. This thing can't bounce noncreature permanents, which makes it worse than Venser's ETB, but I don't see any reason why 2 mana is a better spot for a hard counter vs a bounce spell than turn 4 - if anything, cheaper is better for the tempo effect, so I think the analogy at its core is valid. This isn't Counterspell, but history would suggest it's not nearly as far off as some are saying. The one weakness of counterspells is their inability to affect the board, and this changes that.
I think people are sleeping on Bruna. Meld totally aside, Bruna is a World Breaker that has studied the art of tempo. The stats are flat out superior, and in most situations bringing back your best creature (at a deckbuilding cost, albeit) from your graveyard is incredible - it's like if World Breaker always got to hit a Stasis Snare with the best threat of the game behind it. It doesn't come back for ten mana and a land, but in a world with Emrakul there are better ways to go over the top. Bruna seems at least as good as WB and contextually could be much stronger, and WB defined the format at one point.
And this is totally ignoring that if Gisela has died when you play Bruna and your opponent can't immediately kill her, you win, because maybe that's too cute, but Brisela aside, Bruna is exactly what Control/Ramp wants from a 7.
I've found that 1-2 Westvale Abbey are a must-have- Midrange decks win by stabilizing and leaving you with a bunch of useless Goblin tokens and 1-drops, and Westvale Abbey converts board stalls into an almost unstoppable win. It doesn't come up much, sure, but it wins more games than the 2 Thopters from Foundry or the 2 damage from Blighted Gorge.
You have to activate mana costs before you start paying abilities. No way to make it work.
Do you mean, you have to activate mana abilities before you start paying costs? If so, that's not actually true. You may activate mana abilities in the middle of paying a cost. That said, I'm not sure if that applies to non-mana costs such as sacrificing a permanent. But, as long as it does, it should work. Mana abilities are weird like that.
The more I think about it, the more I think Sin Prodder is just a fixed Goblin Rabblemaster. Either your opponent could deal with Rabblemaster triggers, in which case you played a Grey Ogre, or they couldn't, in which case you win on turn 5. With Sin Prodder, if your opponent can deal with it, it's a Boggart Brute, which is not great but is immeasurably more playable than Grey Ogre. If they can't stop you from getting a few triggers out of it, you don't outright win, but you generate a substantial amount of virtual card advantage off your 3-drop. I think the card will definitely see play, because while it won't lead to turn 4-5 nut draws, it will still take over the game some percent of the time, and the floor is far higher, seeing as it's not the worst beater on its own.
You better hope your opponent isn't playing a land destruction deck when you cast Sin Prodder, because you won't be drawing many lands for the rest of the game.
Um, the ability doesn't replace your normal draw. You still get a random card off the top every turn, so while there will be 'feel bad' moments when Sin Prodder mills the land you need, the trigger is completely upside. This isn't really a Punisher card- your opponent can't stop you from getting a 3/2 Menace body, which is worth more than two mana on its own, and the punisher effect is not only gravy, but triggers every turn.
People still overrate Sin Prodder, because the value of a trigger is much less than a card, and much less than doming them for the average CMC of your deck. But, in an aggressive deck the trigger is probably worth almost half a card, so if it sticks around for one upkeep, you've gotten your mana's worth, and it only takes 2 or 3 triggers to make this the most efficient card in your deck. If a 3-mana must-kill 3/2 matches up poorly against the removal people play in the new Standard, Sin Prodder will need to sit on the sidelines, but if you can expect to get even a single trigger on average, this is a very playable (though not format-defining) card.
Haha, yeah. The way I envision it, there would eventually be some silver-bordered additions to the banlist purely for power reasons, and then a separate list of "these cards are banned by default but they are legal with your playgroup's consent" for all the dexterity/collusion/multi-game cards that aren't actually too powerful, just not healthy mechanics to have in a public format. I just hope it doesn't go down where for 45 days, all the broken things ruin the format, everyone hates Un-cards, everyone hates Sheldon, and nobody ever allows silver border cards anywhere near the command zone ever again. That would make me very sad.
To me at least, the main question is whether the format is fun on a permanent basis with a banlist similar to this, more than whether some of this banlist is unnecessary. I'm no pro, so perhaps More or Less, Ineffable Blessing, Necro-Impotence, Mise, and Rare-B-Gone wouldn't wreck CompEDH, but it would probably build more goodwill to ban more things at first and let things off slowly than risk a totally broken format that makes everyone hate Un-cards as a whole.
While I disagree, I think this is the crux of this discussion. How much would people object to Commander following the Un-rule that not all cards with the same name have to work identically? My personal opinion and understanding is that most people wouldn't mind, it wouldn't be all that competitively relevant, and it would open up a lot of creative decks. So, the only problem with Un-sets in Commander is a couple broken cards, easily bannable.
But you clearly disagree, and if the community is on your side, perhaps it's best not to legalize Un-sets after all, since the "individual cards matter" mechanic is fundamental to silver-border.
Card Damage
"Your cards can't be physically messed with" is a pretty bad meta-rule to violate, so all these are out. Collector Protector breaks a similar meta-rule about ownership.
Dexterity
These might be fine for a personal playgroup, but making physical demands of players is inappropriate for any tournament context.
Collusion
These all have the same problem as Trade Secrets.
Multi-Game Cards
These all break the meta-rule that Magic games occur independently from each other.
Time Concerns
These are various levels of ridiculous and don't belong in sanctioned play.
Power Level
This is probably the most debatable section, but this seems like a reasonable starting banlist for competitive play.
Besides these offenders, does anyone actually have a problem with the rest of the Un-cards? I can understand the hate for having to deal with cards like Nerf War, but does anyone object to Grusilda or Contraptions being a thing?
As for Standard, it mostly depends on what support there is for the "Deserts in the graveyard" mechanic - this doesn't need other deserts, but with that rider on so many cards, there have to be enablers in the set for the Limited archetype to work. The question is whether they make those enablers Constructed-worthy.
It's nice that it eats both Avacyn and Glorybringer, but this seems like at best a dubious Sideboard card, if the Reach is really relevant in some meta.
And this is totally ignoring that if Gisela has died when you play Bruna and your opponent can't immediately kill her, you win, because maybe that's too cute, but Brisela aside, Bruna is exactly what Control/Ramp wants from a 7.
Do you mean, you have to activate mana abilities before you start paying costs? If so, that's not actually true. You may activate mana abilities in the middle of paying a cost. That said, I'm not sure if that applies to non-mana costs such as sacrificing a permanent. But, as long as it does, it should work. Mana abilities are weird like that.
Um, the ability doesn't replace your normal draw. You still get a random card off the top every turn, so while there will be 'feel bad' moments when Sin Prodder mills the land you need, the trigger is completely upside. This isn't really a Punisher card- your opponent can't stop you from getting a 3/2 Menace body, which is worth more than two mana on its own, and the punisher effect is not only gravy, but triggers every turn.
People still overrate Sin Prodder, because the value of a trigger is much less than a card, and much less than doming them for the average CMC of your deck. But, in an aggressive deck the trigger is probably worth almost half a card, so if it sticks around for one upkeep, you've gotten your mana's worth, and it only takes 2 or 3 triggers to make this the most efficient card in your deck. If a 3-mana must-kill 3/2 matches up poorly against the removal people play in the new Standard, Sin Prodder will need to sit on the sidelines, but if you can expect to get even a single trigger on average, this is a very playable (though not format-defining) card.