Apologies if I’ve missed this discussion somewhere in the thread, but has anyone tried out trinisphere? Seems like it could be strong against a good portion of decks.
Thanks Raystack and FluffyWolf for the thoughtful analysis. I can appreciate fully the aggro plan, which if deployed early has a chance to push through. I’m still a bit skeptical how often we would be able to win through all those creatures.
I took a similar line in my loss to tron in a way that’s close to what you describe. Opponent at 8, they are attacking with wurmcoil into Eidolon and rabble master. I shot down my eidolon after blockers hoping to drop Koth, swing through with rabblemaster and a 4/4 mountain. Instead they just follow up their attack with Thragtusk and the game is out of reach. If Eidolon is bridge that game plays out very different. I think it turns out to be one of those scenarios where both decks are hoping to draw the right part of their deck at the right time.
Of course I do have a very limited number of games under my belt...so I will stay on the aggro plan for now, but looking forward to some more testing!
And that is the wrap! I took 51st out of 354 people with a record of 6-3.
Great work! I was recently introduced to your stream and I really enjoyed the videos, especially as a newcomer to the deck. I'm running this deck in the Canadian PPTQ's this season (essentially your list from your most recent youtube video), the first of which was yesterday. I managed a 3-1-1 9th place heartbreaker. I wanted to ask about the Tron matchup which I'm finding quite tricky. I followed the advice of this thread and my plan was -4 Ensnaring Bridge, -2 Anger, -2 Goblin Chainwhirler, +4 Eidolon, +2 Damping Matrix, +2 Sorcerous Spyglass. I had an early Damping matrix which shut off expedition map, and followed with sorcerous spyglass revealing wurmcoil engine, thragtusk, TKS (sigh...). I named Karn, but of course was subsequently trampled from here.
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on maybe going a different direction with the sideboard. Maybe keeping in bridges instead of going the eidolon route. If Eidolon is not early, it can just become dead weight once they start throwing haymakers. I imagine the common sideboard plan for them is to bring in TKS and Thragtusk in anticipation of Bridges coming out. By keeping bridge, it seems like you're forcing Karn and O-stone to be their paths to victory, and maybe we can handle that with spyglass and damping matrix (or sphere?). This is a more reactive plan, but in my minimal testing against tron, I've lost to thratusk wurmcoil beats.
A common scenario comes up for me and I’m wondering what the right play is. It’s G1 against unknown opponent, on the play.
2 Mountain
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Blood Moon
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
All three plays are potentially defendable against different decks of the meta. I’m inclined in the dark to go with the rabble clock because at the worst you get a clock down and are guaranteed a chalice on t3. Interested in your thoughts.
Summary: I would lead with a chalice on 1. Against most decks, it slows the game down. This allows you to continue a slow ramp into a blood moon/rabble - with the chance that you pull one of your remaining 8 rituals. Confidence level on this play is about 65%. I can see the argument for simply going mountain - pass.
Thanks very much for the very thoughtful analysis! Indeed, upon thinking about this a bit more, I think I underestimated just how important the 1-drop slot is in most decks. Shutting down that turn 1 play I do agree is just very powerful, especially before they get to lay the first land. You got thought seize/Iok (black midrange), Vial (humans, spirits, D&T), mana dorks (green decks, humans), other multiple utility dorks (bridgevine, hollow one), combo pieces (KCI, lantern), cantrips (Control, storm), half the burn deck, other various utility like faithless looking, ancient stirrings, expedition map, eggs, and so on...
I was initially scared of being stuck on 2 land and no other play to make, but I think this slows down a LOT of decks enough to warrant it. Also, there's the possibility that a turn 2 moon or rabble master will either be irrelevant or just not enough on its own. Rabble dies in a lot of ways, and moon can be hit or miss against many decks if not T1...all of which you alluded to.
Hi all, new to this deck, loving it so far. Great work on and thanks to everyone.
A common scenario comes up for me and I’m wondering what the right play is. It’s G1 against unknown opponent, on the play. 2 land, chalice, moon, rabblemaster, SSG, Chandra. I see the choices as:
All three plays are potentially defendable against different decks of the meta. I’m inclined in the dark to go with the rabble clock because at the worst you get a clock down and are guaranteed a chalice on t3. Interested in your thoughts.
Karn and Ugin are all but removed from Eldrazi Tron at this point, Bridge is fine against them. Ratchet bomb will usually be focused on hitting CMC1 creatures against Burn. If they have three extra turns to tick it up and then nuke it, you’ve probably made some egregious errors elsewhere.
Thanks, I think this might be the best we have to combat ETron. I'll have to see how it works for me.
Hello Burn experts. I've recently gotten back to slinging the fire, but I'm scared of the E-Tron matchup which seems to be a couple decks in my meta. I like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge for that matchup, but it seems unreliable and can still be hit with Karn/Ulamog/Ratchet Bomb.
Anyone with good experience against the matchup and can offer some advice?
My list is a straightforward 19 land Boros list with the following sideboard:
I play BW E&T too.
I would like to read what do you feel about 23 lands vs 22.
Actually with dark confidant I was on 23 lands also. To be honest I don’t know what’s right, but with this deck I’d rather be on the screw side more than the flood side because of Vial. Most lists that look to be having success are running 22 as well. I’m also curious what others have found. Been pretty happy on 22. Colour screw has been more of a problem than # lands.
Long-time lurker in this forum, and lover of D&T. Finally feel like I have enough reps/experience now to contribute.
Played B/W E&T at two local events and went 3-1 in each, played against 8 different decks so I have some thoughts on my experience against each.
VS. R/W Prison (1-2):
Seemed to be pretty play/draw dependant matchup as a quick T2 blood moon on the draw is crippling with no way to fetch basics.
One match was lost by T2 moon, and the other loss was pretty grindy, but ultimately lost to timely sweepers. Chalice isn't a big deal thanks to flickerwisp and vial. One matchup was won with T1 vial, T2 thalia, vial-Thraben on the play, followed by tidehallow, TKS taking away sweepers. Overall, as others have experienced this deck is SUPER soft to blood moon if you don't have a vial. Relic warder's hedge a bit, but they aren't enough.
VS. Abzan (1-2):
A very grindy matchup that tends to go into late game. Also pretty play/draw dependant (is there a modern matchup that isn't!?), as T1 inquisition/thoughtseize can be quite disruptive. The effectiveness of hate bears in this matchup seem quite situational. Sometimes they do work (ie. Arbiter when they have fetch heavy hands), but their two drops outclass ours. Lost G1 because of an unanswered dark confidant (path was stripped), and another game I was outgrinded by souls and point removal. An early abrupt decay on Rest in Peace allowed Tarmogoyf and Souls to do work. I was consciously ignoring the jund-y archtypes with my sideboard because I hadn't seen much at my LGS. This matchup would have benefited significantly from Gideon, Ally of Zendikar out of the board, or something similar.
VS. Titanshift (2-1)
Overall I've found this to be a decent matchup. Arbitor and ghost quarter do serious work key here and makes life very difficult for them. Slowing them down and hittin their hand is a good recipe. Post board is harder since they bring in sweepers and/or more spot removal. 3 Forge-tenders and the selfless spirit were very nice counters to that plan. Often countering the sweeper is enough to win the game. I didn't miss Aven mindcensor which I had been using previously. Can win through resolved titans if you have path and GQ.
VS. B/W Smallpox Planeswalkers (2-1)
I knew two of these decks were running around, hence the revoker and selfless spirits in my board. Still I found it to be a tough matchup. G1 is hard because you're soft to sweepers and planeswalkers. Revokers and selfless spirit out of the board helped here. Played against a version with bloodghast and lingering souls, so Rest in Peace was good also. Land light hands without vial are risky since they can attack the shaky manabase pretty well. I can see this being a tough matchup, but T1 vial with Tidehollow/TSK disruption won me both games. Selfless spirit against Damnation was key in one game also. Thraben inspector with smuggler's copter was a hit this game. With only push as spot removal, and copter avoiding damnation, I liked having these.
VS. Grand Architect Blue Steel (2-0)
This felt to me like playing against abzan, mid-rangy but they have less removal and hand disruption, so it's easier I think. Displacer/Tidehollow shenanigans can just go unchecked here since they have very little spot removal. Save path for Grand Architect or Wurmcoil Engine. Arbiter is nearly dead here, so post-board swap of 4x Arbiter for 2x Revoker and 2x Relic-warder is a great sideboard plan. I haven't played the matchup too much, but for sure the right sequencing of disruption here is to tidehallow the enablers (Cheif Engineer, Etherium Sculpter), then save path for big dudes (probably obvious). Just look out for a big ballista.
VS. Mirror Match (2-0)
What can I say about the mirror match...the player with vial wins if the other doesn't have it. Thraben/Copter is great for grinding. You can just outright lose if you're land light against a GQ draw. Revoker is sometimes good, relic-warder isn't bad (copter, vial, tidehollow), but sometimes matches come down to who draws more TKS. I think the copter version is definitely favoured here.
VS. Burn (2-1)
Play first. Draw Forge-tenders. Hope you can live the dream and eat a rift-bolt with Strangler and murder a goblin guide. I defintely had good draws here, and was on the play. But I think this is an unfavourable matchup for E&T. Thraben into Tidehollow (taking bolt, luckily leaving opponent with lava-spike, boros charm, skullcrack in hand) into Strangler-kill-a-dude into TKS got me there G1. That won't happen often. You need a forge-tender or early TKS to have a chance in boarded games. The other game I won, I had T1 forge-tender on the play to thwart his guide. T2 Thalia slowed him down, T3 TKS provided a nice clock. Not sure what the best boarding plan is here, but either way I think you need some luck in this matchup.
VS. Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good matchup, but I felt pretty comfortable. GQ is good, but not back-breaking. Arbiter is lackluster. Displacer shines here, allowing you to flicker their attacks and dodge all is dust. TKS and tidehollow do nice work taking them off either key sweepers or late-game bombs just long enough. This was actually a fun matchup that feels like it could be very swingy. Each match you feel like being in control, to possibly
facing down a pair of Reality Smasher's in a second. GQ + Thalia + Arbiter + Path + Tidehollow are not silver-bullets, but provide enough disruption to slow them down enough to take this game.
I'm curious what other folk's feelings are towards these matchups, and if they have different/similar thoughts.
Just some more thoughts:
- I really like this maindeck against an open field. I used to have +3 Dark Confidant instead of thraben, and +1 Thalia +1 Stranger in place of copters.
- 3x Thalia might be wrong, but I never felt like this was a silver-bullet in any match. I think the upside to drawing multiples less, is much better than say, killing storm where it shines. But, I could be wrong.
- 2x Strangler might also be wrong. It's great when the stars align, but it is still very situational. I liked 2x. Boarded out frequently.
- Thraben/Copter was fantastic as was discussed above.
- Sideboard felt great, although I think I'll be swapping the relic warders for 2 copies of Gideon, Ally for the grindy matchups. Warder was a concession to having something extra for the affinity players I know lurk around, but maybe even they aren't great there anyways. I do feel uncomfortable without some additional artifact/enchantment removal though.
Hey I've been following this deck for a while.
My meta is mostly burn, aggro and some company decks. Also some jund decks as well.
I have about 90% of the cards, only can't afford karn's right now.
Do you think a version of this deck could work without Karns?
Maybe Endbringer and some extra world breaker and ugin, the spirit dragoninstead?
Opinions?
Thanks!
Anyone?
I couldn't imagine playing Tron without Karn daddy as it's often the best card in the deck with Tron online. But if I had to then I agree that World Breaker would get at least 1-2 of Karn's slots. Depending on meta the other's I might fill with TKS if combo-heavy, and with walking ballista otherwise. Endbringer is a good card but I think I'd prefer a card that affects the board or the opponent's plan (Karn does both).
My question is about how you guys have approached the Lantern matchup. It's been the only match so far (albeit in limited games) where I've struggled.
The two tricks I rely on most in the lantern matchup are these:
1. Holding back a Flickerwisp to flicker their bridge once I have a critical mass of creatures on the board.
2. Displacing a TKS multiple times on their end step (or my turn) to force them to draw cards into their hand so I can attack under bridge.
Thanks very much for the reply. I've won a couple game 1's with the first trick. Haven't had a chance to TKS draw them, that one would feel nice. I feel like the early turns are super important because in post-boarded games I've been hit with thoughtseize on my artifact hate. Mill/abrupt decay/pithing needle on displacer etc... They can usually deal with the first hate card, and then lock you out of your other options later. It feels like in order to win you need multiple hate cards or answers at the right time - an answer for the bridge + a piece of artifact hate. Do you mind sharing your sideboard plan?
Hello D&T experts. I recently picked up this deck (BW Eldrazi Taxes) and am loving it! Arbiter and Thalia feel really strong right now, and Displacer can get busted pretty quick. My question is about how you guys have approached the Lantern matchup. It's been the only match so far (albeit in limited games) where I've struggled.
My current approach is to mulligan aggressively for artifact hate (+1 Kataki, War's Wage, +3 Stony Silence), but even then I've lost to thoughtseize and abrupt decay. A landed bridge is also brutal so I value hands with Sculler and/or TKS. I'm thinking now that maybe Thoughtseize of my own and maybe surgical extraction is a bit more proactive? These can be good in other matchups too. Was thinking something like: -4 Path, -3 Strangler, -2 Arbiter, +3 Stony Silence, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Phyrexian Revoker.
Current metagame is quite diverse. Only thing I don't really see is G/x midrange. What I've seen so far:
Lantern, Storm, 8-rack, U/x control, Affinity, Etron, G/x Tron, Prison
I recently bought a Nahiri playset and Emrakul and started testing this deck. My questions are all probably a mix of stupid and already answered in this thread, but here I go.
What's the consensus on a few Monastery Mentors either as a finisher or to try to hold off the pressure with tokens as a last resort?
I have a 3/3 Path/Push split and 3 terminate/ 1 dreadbore, is this good?
How many wraths are needed?
I actually had a similar thought, but tested Young Pyromancer instead of Mentor. As Nukedz mentioned the three-drop spot is just too clogged, but the 2-drop is lacking in Nahiri Builds. My rationale was similar in that I wanted a legitimate plan B, but something that also supports the protect Nahiri plan. My conclusion was that it really helped the B/G/x midrange matchups by helping "go-wide" and out grinding the 1-for-1 removal slug, but I didn't find it skewed any of the other matchups. U/W has wrath effects, Etron has All is Dust, and the clock wasn't fast enough for the combo decks. Burn was still hard too.
In that regard I am still intrigued at the added power-level of the mentor as a must answer clock, and I'm wondering about testing a build that can transition into an aggro deck by siding out the Nahiri package. The MTGO PTQ list from recently does something similar my siding into 3 Monastery Swiftspear. Maybe something like -4 Nahiri -1 Emrakul, -1 other, +4 Swiftspear +2 Mentor (4x Pyromancer already main). I can see this being the plan of action against things like Storm, Tron, U/W/x control, Lantern. I can see them siding into something like pithing needle or ways to deal with Nahiri and then being hit with turn 1 Swiftspear. What do you guys think?
As for the Push/Path/Term/Dreadbore split, I personally like more Dreadbore. Between Push, Path and terminate as instants, the added way to deal with Planeswalkers is nice. Currently I'm on a 4 Push, 2 Path, 3 Dreadbore, 1 Terminate split. I have a third path in the board.
The wrath question is interesting. It might go counter to the strategy I mention above, but like other black midrange it looks like there are 0-3 wrath effects in those boards. Abzan is typically running a damnation and 1-2 flaying tendrils I find. If you're on a token plan I think we can go wide pretty good on our own. I can see maybe 1-2 slots against something like CoCo decks. Maybe a singleton of each Damnation and Flaying Tendrils? Curious what others think too.
Great write up man! Ive been stuck on the 2 drop threat for a while, and had gone a few FNMs with 3 bitterblossoms and 3 intangible virtues to compliment the lingering souls. It played a lot more like Wb tokens with a Nahiri top end than true Nahiri control. I will be trying out Smugglers Copter in place of virtue for further card selection. Both are pretty useless without tokens, and blossom makes burn even harder than it already is.
I'd like to try out 4 pack rats at some point, and input on your experience with them would be appreciated. What did you mean by "taking it in a different direction"? Any match ups it makes better or worse? I personally dont like dropping them unless i have 5 mana so i can spawn another rat in response, or discard has shown me no removal. Is your strategy any different?
I ran young pyro back when i first started trying to make Mardu work for me. It was Bob, Peezy, and seeker of the way with discard, removal and Lily. Once Nahiri spoiled i dropped the creatures (and kommand with them, since the best mode was no longer relevant) and never looked back. Maybe i should have...
Thanks! I've never tried bitterblossom, I guess I figured it would be a liability vs burn, and maybe too slow. As for the pack rats, in the few matches I've tested you rarely want to play this on turn 2... It really is more of a 5-drop like you mention, and I think that pulls the deck into a more controlling direction. If I'm playing Pack Rat, then I'd really want Bob, and then I think the Nahiri combo should come out, then maybe even white etc etc...I could be wrong. Maybe, the way to try is something like -1 Sorin, -1 Terminate, +2 Kommand, so you have the full suite of Kommand to go with the rats. That way you don't care as much to run them out turn 2? Not sure. Matchups where I think the rats shine is against other mid range. Top decking Peezy really sucks when they can drop their own 2 drop Goyf. But the rats can help take over that matchup. It's a bit clunky vs combo where you want a clock, a bit too slow where you want some early blockers. I haven't played against things like Jeskai/Esper/UW control, but I imagine they could be good there too.
Like you I've tried to make Mardu midrange/aggro strategies work but it's never been good enough. Every game goes something like trade resources for 4-5 turns, go into top deck mode then get out-grinded. Never having a fast enough clock against combo, never enough resources against control. Let me know how copter ends up working for you.
I took a similar line in my loss to tron in a way that’s close to what you describe. Opponent at 8, they are attacking with wurmcoil into Eidolon and rabble master. I shot down my eidolon after blockers hoping to drop Koth, swing through with rabblemaster and a 4/4 mountain. Instead they just follow up their attack with Thragtusk and the game is out of reach. If Eidolon is bridge that game plays out very different. I think it turns out to be one of those scenarios where both decks are hoping to draw the right part of their deck at the right time.
Of course I do have a very limited number of games under my belt...so I will stay on the aggro plan for now, but looking forward to some more testing!
Great work! I was recently introduced to your stream and I really enjoyed the videos, especially as a newcomer to the deck. I'm running this deck in the Canadian PPTQ's this season (essentially your list from your most recent youtube video), the first of which was yesterday. I managed a 3-1-1 9th place heartbreaker. I wanted to ask about the Tron matchup which I'm finding quite tricky. I followed the advice of this thread and my plan was -4 Ensnaring Bridge, -2 Anger, -2 Goblin Chainwhirler, +4 Eidolon, +2 Damping Matrix, +2 Sorcerous Spyglass. I had an early Damping matrix which shut off expedition map, and followed with sorcerous spyglass revealing wurmcoil engine, thragtusk, TKS (sigh...). I named Karn, but of course was subsequently trampled from here.
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on maybe going a different direction with the sideboard. Maybe keeping in bridges instead of going the eidolon route. If Eidolon is not early, it can just become dead weight once they start throwing haymakers. I imagine the common sideboard plan for them is to bring in TKS and Thragtusk in anticipation of Bridges coming out. By keeping bridge, it seems like you're forcing Karn and O-stone to be their paths to victory, and maybe we can handle that with spyglass and damping matrix (or sphere?). This is a more reactive plan, but in my minimal testing against tron, I've lost to thratusk wurmcoil beats.
Thanks again and great work!
Thanks very much for the very thoughtful analysis! Indeed, upon thinking about this a bit more, I think I underestimated just how important the 1-drop slot is in most decks. Shutting down that turn 1 play I do agree is just very powerful, especially before they get to lay the first land. You got thought seize/Iok (black midrange), Vial (humans, spirits, D&T), mana dorks (green decks, humans), other multiple utility dorks (bridgevine, hollow one), combo pieces (KCI, lantern), cantrips (Control, storm), half the burn deck, other various utility like faithless looking, ancient stirrings, expedition map, eggs, and so on...
I was initially scared of being stuck on 2 land and no other play to make, but I think this slows down a LOT of decks enough to warrant it. Also, there's the possibility that a turn 2 moon or rabble master will either be irrelevant or just not enough on its own. Rabble dies in a lot of ways, and moon can be hit or miss against many decks if not T1...all of which you alluded to.
Thanks again!
A common scenario comes up for me and I’m wondering what the right play is. It’s G1 against unknown opponent, on the play. 2 land, chalice, moon, rabblemaster, SSG, Chandra. I see the choices as:
1. Turn 1 chalice
2. Turn 2 rabble, turn 3 chalice
3. Turn 2 Blood moon
All three plays are potentially defendable against different decks of the meta. I’m inclined in the dark to go with the rabble clock because at the worst you get a clock down and are guaranteed a chalice on t3. Interested in your thoughts.
Thanks, I think this might be the best we have to combat ETron. I'll have to see how it works for me.
Anyone with good experience against the matchup and can offer some advice?
My list is a straightforward 19 land Boros list with the following sideboard:
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Path to Exile
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Deflecting Palm
1 Shattering Spree
Current plan against them is:
-4 Eidolon, -4 Searing Blaze, -1 Lava Spike, -2 Lightning Helix
+4 Drev, +2 Path, +2 Palm, +2 Bridge, +1 Spree
Thanks in advance!
Actually with dark confidant I was on 23 lands also. To be honest I don’t know what’s right, but with this deck I’d rather be on the screw side more than the flood side because of Vial. Most lists that look to be having success are running 22 as well. I’m also curious what others have found. Been pretty happy on 22. Colour screw has been more of a problem than # lands.
Played B/W E&T at two local events and went 3-1 in each, played against 8 different decks so I have some thoughts on my experience against each.
First the deck:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thraben Inspector
2 Wasteland Strangler
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Æther Vial
Instants
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Rest in Peace
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Leonin Relic-warder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Selfless Spirit
Thoughts on matchups below:
VS. R/W Prison (1-2):
Seemed to be pretty play/draw dependant matchup as a quick T2 blood moon on the draw is crippling with no way to fetch basics.
One match was lost by T2 moon, and the other loss was pretty grindy, but ultimately lost to timely sweepers. Chalice isn't a big deal thanks to flickerwisp and vial. One matchup was won with T1 vial, T2 thalia, vial-Thraben on the play, followed by tidehallow, TKS taking away sweepers. Overall, as others have experienced this deck is SUPER soft to blood moon if you don't have a vial. Relic warder's hedge a bit, but they aren't enough.
VS. Abzan (1-2):
A very grindy matchup that tends to go into late game. Also pretty play/draw dependant (is there a modern matchup that isn't!?), as T1 inquisition/thoughtseize can be quite disruptive. The effectiveness of hate bears in this matchup seem quite situational. Sometimes they do work (ie. Arbiter when they have fetch heavy hands), but their two drops outclass ours. Lost G1 because of an unanswered dark confidant (path was stripped), and another game I was outgrinded by souls and point removal. An early abrupt decay on Rest in Peace allowed Tarmogoyf and Souls to do work. I was consciously ignoring the jund-y archtypes with my sideboard because I hadn't seen much at my LGS. This matchup would have benefited significantly from Gideon, Ally of Zendikar out of the board, or something similar.
VS. Titanshift (2-1)
Overall I've found this to be a decent matchup. Arbitor and ghost quarter do serious work key here and makes life very difficult for them. Slowing them down and hittin their hand is a good recipe. Post board is harder since they bring in sweepers and/or more spot removal. 3 Forge-tenders and the selfless spirit were very nice counters to that plan. Often countering the sweeper is enough to win the game. I didn't miss Aven mindcensor which I had been using previously. Can win through resolved titans if you have path and GQ.
VS. B/W Smallpox Planeswalkers (2-1)
I knew two of these decks were running around, hence the revoker and selfless spirits in my board. Still I found it to be a tough matchup. G1 is hard because you're soft to sweepers and planeswalkers. Revokers and selfless spirit out of the board helped here. Played against a version with bloodghast and lingering souls, so Rest in Peace was good also. Land light hands without vial are risky since they can attack the shaky manabase pretty well. I can see this being a tough matchup, but T1 vial with Tidehollow/TSK disruption won me both games. Selfless spirit against Damnation was key in one game also. Thraben inspector with smuggler's copter was a hit this game. With only push as spot removal, and copter avoiding damnation, I liked having these.
VS. Grand Architect Blue Steel (2-0)
This felt to me like playing against abzan, mid-rangy but they have less removal and hand disruption, so it's easier I think. Displacer/Tidehollow shenanigans can just go unchecked here since they have very little spot removal. Save path for Grand Architect or Wurmcoil Engine. Arbiter is nearly dead here, so post-board swap of 4x Arbiter for 2x Revoker and 2x Relic-warder is a great sideboard plan. I haven't played the matchup too much, but for sure the right sequencing of disruption here is to tidehallow the enablers (Cheif Engineer, Etherium Sculpter), then save path for big dudes (probably obvious). Just look out for a big ballista.
VS. Mirror Match (2-0)
What can I say about the mirror match...the player with vial wins if the other doesn't have it. Thraben/Copter is great for grinding. You can just outright lose if you're land light against a GQ draw. Revoker is sometimes good, relic-warder isn't bad (copter, vial, tidehollow), but sometimes matches come down to who draws more TKS. I think the copter version is definitely favoured here.
VS. Burn (2-1)
Play first. Draw Forge-tenders. Hope you can live the dream and eat a rift-bolt with Strangler and murder a goblin guide. I defintely had good draws here, and was on the play. But I think this is an unfavourable matchup for E&T. Thraben into Tidehollow (taking bolt, luckily leaving opponent with lava-spike, boros charm, skullcrack in hand) into Strangler-kill-a-dude into TKS got me there G1. That won't happen often. You need a forge-tender or early TKS to have a chance in boarded games. The other game I won, I had T1 forge-tender on the play to thwart his guide. T2 Thalia slowed him down, T3 TKS provided a nice clock. Not sure what the best boarding plan is here, but either way I think you need some luck in this matchup.
VS. Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good matchup, but I felt pretty comfortable. GQ is good, but not back-breaking. Arbiter is lackluster. Displacer shines here, allowing you to flicker their attacks and dodge all is dust. TKS and tidehollow do nice work taking them off either key sweepers or late-game bombs just long enough. This was actually a fun matchup that feels like it could be very swingy. Each match you feel like being in control, to possibly
facing down a pair of Reality Smasher's in a second. GQ + Thalia + Arbiter + Path + Tidehollow are not silver-bullets, but provide enough disruption to slow them down enough to take this game.
I'm curious what other folk's feelings are towards these matchups, and if they have different/similar thoughts.
Just some more thoughts:
- I really like this maindeck against an open field. I used to have +3 Dark Confidant instead of thraben, and +1 Thalia +1 Stranger in place of copters.
- 3x Thalia might be wrong, but I never felt like this was a silver-bullet in any match. I think the upside to drawing multiples less, is much better than say, killing storm where it shines. But, I could be wrong.
- 2x Strangler might also be wrong. It's great when the stars align, but it is still very situational. I liked 2x. Boarded out frequently.
- Thraben/Copter was fantastic as was discussed above.
- Sideboard felt great, although I think I'll be swapping the relic warders for 2 copies of Gideon, Ally for the grindy matchups. Warder was a concession to having something extra for the affinity players I know lurk around, but maybe even they aren't great there anyways. I do feel uncomfortable without some additional artifact/enchantment removal though.
Thanks for reading.
I'm wondering how dark confidant would feel in this deck. Anyone tried him out?
I couldn't imagine playing Tron without Karn daddy as it's often the best card in the deck with Tron online. But if I had to then I agree that World Breaker would get at least 1-2 of Karn's slots. Depending on meta the other's I might fill with TKS if combo-heavy, and with walking ballista otherwise. Endbringer is a good card but I think I'd prefer a card that affects the board or the opponent's plan (Karn does both).
Thanks very much for the reply. I've won a couple game 1's with the first trick. Haven't had a chance to TKS draw them, that one would feel nice. I feel like the early turns are super important because in post-boarded games I've been hit with thoughtseize on my artifact hate. Mill/abrupt decay/pithing needle on displacer etc... They can usually deal with the first hate card, and then lock you out of your other options later. It feels like in order to win you need multiple hate cards or answers at the right time - an answer for the bridge + a piece of artifact hate. Do you mind sharing your sideboard plan?
Thanks again.
My current approach is to mulligan aggressively for artifact hate (+1 Kataki, War's Wage, +3 Stony Silence), but even then I've lost to thoughtseize and abrupt decay. A landed bridge is also brutal so I value hands with Sculler and/or TKS. I'm thinking now that maybe Thoughtseize of my own and maybe surgical extraction is a bit more proactive? These can be good in other matchups too. Was thinking something like: -4 Path, -3 Strangler, -2 Arbiter, +3 Stony Silence, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Phyrexian Revoker.
My current board for reference:
3 Stony Silence
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Fatal Push
2 Ethersworn Canonist (some storm in my meta, thinking of replacing with Thoughtseize)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Aven Mindcensor
Current metagame is quite diverse. Only thing I don't really see is G/x midrange. What I've seen so far:
Lantern, Storm, 8-rack, U/x control, Affinity, Etron, G/x Tron, Prison
Thanks for the insights!
I actually had a similar thought, but tested Young Pyromancer instead of Mentor. As Nukedz mentioned the three-drop spot is just too clogged, but the 2-drop is lacking in Nahiri Builds. My rationale was similar in that I wanted a legitimate plan B, but something that also supports the protect Nahiri plan. My conclusion was that it really helped the B/G/x midrange matchups by helping "go-wide" and out grinding the 1-for-1 removal slug, but I didn't find it skewed any of the other matchups. U/W has wrath effects, Etron has All is Dust, and the clock wasn't fast enough for the combo decks. Burn was still hard too.
In that regard I am still intrigued at the added power-level of the mentor as a must answer clock, and I'm wondering about testing a build that can transition into an aggro deck by siding out the Nahiri package. The MTGO PTQ list from recently does something similar my siding into 3 Monastery Swiftspear. Maybe something like -4 Nahiri -1 Emrakul, -1 other, +4 Swiftspear +2 Mentor (4x Pyromancer already main). I can see this being the plan of action against things like Storm, Tron, U/W/x control, Lantern. I can see them siding into something like pithing needle or ways to deal with Nahiri and then being hit with turn 1 Swiftspear. What do you guys think?
As for the Push/Path/Term/Dreadbore split, I personally like more Dreadbore. Between Push, Path and terminate as instants, the added way to deal with Planeswalkers is nice. Currently I'm on a 4 Push, 2 Path, 3 Dreadbore, 1 Terminate split. I have a third path in the board.
The wrath question is interesting. It might go counter to the strategy I mention above, but like other black midrange it looks like there are 0-3 wrath effects in those boards. Abzan is typically running a damnation and 1-2 flaying tendrils I find. If you're on a token plan I think we can go wide pretty good on our own. I can see maybe 1-2 slots against something like CoCo decks. Maybe a singleton of each Damnation and Flaying Tendrils? Curious what others think too.
Thanks! I've never tried bitterblossom, I guess I figured it would be a liability vs burn, and maybe too slow. As for the pack rats, in the few matches I've tested you rarely want to play this on turn 2... It really is more of a 5-drop like you mention, and I think that pulls the deck into a more controlling direction. If I'm playing Pack Rat, then I'd really want Bob, and then I think the Nahiri combo should come out, then maybe even white etc etc...I could be wrong. Maybe, the way to try is something like -1 Sorin, -1 Terminate, +2 Kommand, so you have the full suite of Kommand to go with the rats. That way you don't care as much to run them out turn 2? Not sure. Matchups where I think the rats shine is against other mid range. Top decking Peezy really sucks when they can drop their own 2 drop Goyf. But the rats can help take over that matchup. It's a bit clunky vs combo where you want a clock, a bit too slow where you want some early blockers. I haven't played against things like Jeskai/Esper/UW control, but I imagine they could be good there too.
Like you I've tried to make Mardu midrange/aggro strategies work but it's never been good enough. Every game goes something like trade resources for 4-5 turns, go into top deck mode then get out-grinded. Never having a fast enough clock against combo, never enough resources against control. Let me know how copter ends up working for you.