Wow, you're really preaching this. Did you make an account just to pseudo-rant on RTR?
Less a prophet and more a zealot in my eyes, as I've taken down pods with decks containing 0 rares, and decks where I was cut and had to adapt drafting pack 2/3.
How many drafts have you actually completed?
Nah, I'm pretty much done and mainly created the account for more general usage. I have over 80 drafts with the same play group across multiple sets. My match winning percentage is about 70%.
The set is low on removal and high on high toughness and mechanics where you get 2 creatures for the price of one card. Putting them together is a multiplier, not an added.
3) You seem to have decided not to consider quite a lot in your set review (alt removal like detain which is relevant) and considering you're comparing it to a bomb heavy format you really should look at rares and mythic, would you can to include things you have missed?
The tempo removal cards in this set seem worse than say in AVR, where one could "get there" on tempo plays to get in the last damage. Detain has been a speed bump at best unless one gets the rares where it is repeatable. Bounce at least makes them recast the spell.
4) How many times have you drafted this set? It's very early to make sweeping statements.
Drafted 3 times, with a lot of discussion amongst the play ground who have a similar opinion.
AVR vs RtR
Toughness 4 or greater - all: AVR 33 - RtR 51
Toughness 4 or greater - uc / c: AVR 13 - RtR 22
Toughness 3 or less - all: AVR 91 - RtR 88
Toughness 3 or less - uc/c: AVR 69 - RtR 69
Average Token Toughness: AVR 2.2 - RtR 2.85
Number of Token 2 for 1s: AVR 4 - RtR 9
3 or less removal - uc/c: AVR 2 / 5 - RtR 6 / 3
4 or higher removal - uc/c: AVR 1 / 2 - RtR 3 / 2
All removal - uc/c: AVR 3 / 3 - RtR 4 / 4
All removal - no restrictions @ common: AVR 0, RtR 1
Bone Splinters vs Launch Party is a good example of card that is very similar between the two sets. Bone splinters is cheaper and backed up by undying, but a sorcery. Where as Launch Party cause 2 life loss and plays into Golgari and is most easily supported by tokens and is an instant. My experience has been that they are about equal, though having to hold open 4 mana to block and sac for maximum value is a tempo hit.
Leaving aside the question of "bombs" for a moment, I can't think of any Magic set ever printed where having other players stay out of your colours isn't massively advantageous. Is that really what you meant to say?
I would tend to agree with this, but I think it is more so of an issue in RtR as instead of staying in 2 of 5 colors, your looking to stay in 1 of 5 guilds (color combinations). Many people will select a guild from pick one and then draft said guild. In other sets, people may stay in a color, but not two at once early on as this set pushes.
It is, since there are a lot of good defensive creatures in the format. This helps prevent the format from being too fast, thereby increasing the skill of the format.
You say defensive equates to more skill, I say it is just as "innately skill testing" as playing removal.
The use of "sweepers" in Limited is more typically aimed at smaller creatures. And in any case, if the whole format is large creatures then can't you just trade your opponent's large creatures for your own large creatures?
This format has a lot more low power, high toughness creatures than others; equating to more stalled board positions. There is even a whole defender sub-theme and more creatures tat regenerate than average. The sweepers become more irrelevant due to the high casting cost or high creature toughness.
This much is true. Does that make it a less skillful format? What aspect of removing your opponent's creature is innately skill testing?
What makes it more skill testing to cast your bomb that you got luck and opened. I am not making any assertions about removal requiring more skill, only that removal removes the randomness of not getting lucky and opening a bomb.
Player A opens no bombs, but gets some removal
Player B opens bombs, but now has open slots somewhere else
Player A and B are fundamentally level on the playing field. With lack luster removal, Player A is at a disadvantage due to pack randomness.
Based on...what exactly? Everyone who has played it extensively seems to agree it's a good format.
Based on my own experience, other than the guild packs, normal sealed and draft is about herp derping up a big ole rare to win. Now is it going to be as bad as AVR for top deck wins (miracle), probably not. It is going to be as bad a AVR for opening rares to win, yes.
Rakdos loses to GW pretty easily, but it all depends on the cards you get.
If Selesnya ends up being the most drafted archetype (which I believe it will), a lot of guys will try to force it and will end up with mediocre decks.
I think the strenght of the Selesnya is having an answer to pretty much everything. The creatures are large, White has Arrest, the Arrow and the 6 Mana exile/populate thing, Green has Ramp and Blocks Flyers and the G/W Guildmage is probably the best (pairing with teh U/W, imo).
It's still to early to judge, and most strategies will emerge as soon as the set is released Online.
Based on my experience, I concur with this. I have played Rakdos or a variant of Rakdos against Selesnya 12 times and lost 8 times to the deck. Rakdos has no evasion and thus has to clear the way to get damage in. Azorius and Izzet have evasion and bounce (removal for tokens). Golgari has probably an equal issue as Rakdos, but can go into green for the ramp and "steal" some of the populate cards. Selesnya also has enough life gain to prevent you from falling behind too much early, effectively negating fast aggro decks.
I see the decks being:
- Rakdos with nothing over a 4 drop (send most popular, but a trap)
- Selesnya tokens (most popular)
- Izzet/Azorius evasion (sleeper)
- Golgari evasion if you can get a prefect draft (trap)
I've played RtR in draft and sealed a couple of times. This set seems to be back to the crap that was AVR where he who opens the bombs or has people stay out of his colors will end up winning. In order to see if my theory is correct, I did some analysis of RtR vs M13.
In general, the creature toughness is higher in RtR and there are more tokens available. RtR contains 7 less creatures with toughness 3 or less at all rarity, but 2 more at common or uncommon. This not a big deal. However, at toughness 4 or higher, RtR contains 18 more creatures with toughness 4 or higher, with 5 more being at common or uncommon. It should also be noted tha that the average token toughness is about 1 point higher than in M13 and there is 1 more 2 for 1 (two creatures for one card) in RtR than M13, with 2 more at common and uncommon.
Note: Not all Tokens are taken into account for toughness count and populate isn't taken into account for 2 for 1 unless the populate card puts in a token at the same time.
RtR has lots of big creatures and tokens, surely WotC would print sweepers and good removal to deal with this so a player who doesn't pull a bomb will have answers? RtR has 3 more removal at uncommon, yet 3 less removal at common for creatures with power 3 or less. RtR does have 1 more removal at common and uncommon for power 4 or higher, typically up to 5, than M13. RtR has two more removal spells which hit all types of creatures at uncommon and the same as M13 for commons. However, only 1 removal spell at common has no restrictions (sacrifice, attacking or blocking, etc.). Most of the removal in RtR costs a lot of mana and/or as additional restrictions on it to make it less effective.
Note: Rare and Mythic Rare removal as not looked at due to lack of availability. Detain and bounce were not looked at either, though enchantments (arrest) were.
In summary, RtR appears to be just like AVR where the removal is very situational and typically at uncommon while the creatures are big dumb dorks. Therefore, he who opens the best rares and/or is left alone while drafting will win. RtR is a luck format, not a skill format. The set also appears to have a heavy amount of rock paper scissors in it with certain guilds having huge advantages against other guilds.
Sad thing is that WotC is going to sell a ton of it because of the shock lands and it being dual color, but the set is a pile of crap in my opinion.
Nah, I'm pretty much done and mainly created the account for more general usage. I have over 80 drafts with the same play group across multiple sets. My match winning percentage is about 70%.
The set is low on removal and high on high toughness and mechanics where you get 2 creatures for the price of one card. Putting them together is a multiplier, not an added.
The tempo removal cards in this set seem worse than say in AVR, where one could "get there" on tempo plays to get in the last damage. Detain has been a speed bump at best unless one gets the rares where it is repeatable. Bounce at least makes them recast the spell.
Drafted 3 times, with a lot of discussion amongst the play ground who have a similar opinion.
AVR vs RtR
Toughness 4 or greater - all: AVR 33 - RtR 51
Toughness 4 or greater - uc / c: AVR 13 - RtR 22
Toughness 3 or less - all: AVR 91 - RtR 88
Toughness 3 or less - uc/c: AVR 69 - RtR 69
Average Token Toughness: AVR 2.2 - RtR 2.85
Number of Token 2 for 1s: AVR 4 - RtR 9
3 or less removal - uc/c: AVR 2 / 5 - RtR 6 / 3
4 or higher removal - uc/c: AVR 1 / 2 - RtR 3 / 2
All removal - uc/c: AVR 3 / 3 - RtR 4 / 4
All removal - no restrictions @ common: AVR 0, RtR 1
Bone Splinters vs Launch Party is a good example of card that is very similar between the two sets. Bone splinters is cheaper and backed up by undying, but a sorcery. Where as Launch Party cause 2 life loss and plays into Golgari and is most easily supported by tokens and is an instant. My experience has been that they are about equal, though having to hold open 4 mana to block and sac for maximum value is a tempo hit.
I would tend to agree with this, but I think it is more so of an issue in RtR as instead of staying in 2 of 5 colors, your looking to stay in 1 of 5 guilds (color combinations). Many people will select a guild from pick one and then draft said guild. In other sets, people may stay in a color, but not two at once early on as this set pushes.
You say defensive equates to more skill, I say it is just as "innately skill testing" as playing removal.
This format has a lot more low power, high toughness creatures than others; equating to more stalled board positions. There is even a whole defender sub-theme and more creatures tat regenerate than average. The sweepers become more irrelevant due to the high casting cost or high creature toughness.
What makes it more skill testing to cast your bomb that you got luck and opened. I am not making any assertions about removal requiring more skill, only that removal removes the randomness of not getting lucky and opening a bomb.
Player A opens no bombs, but gets some removal
Player B opens bombs, but now has open slots somewhere else
Player A and B are fundamentally level on the playing field. With lack luster removal, Player A is at a disadvantage due to pack randomness.
Based on my own experience, other than the guild packs, normal sealed and draft is about herp derping up a big ole rare to win. Now is it going to be as bad as AVR for top deck wins (miracle), probably not. It is going to be as bad a AVR for opening rares to win, yes.
Let's give is some time to see who is right.
Based on my experience, I concur with this. I have played Rakdos or a variant of Rakdos against Selesnya 12 times and lost 8 times to the deck. Rakdos has no evasion and thus has to clear the way to get damage in. Azorius and Izzet have evasion and bounce (removal for tokens). Golgari has probably an equal issue as Rakdos, but can go into green for the ramp and "steal" some of the populate cards. Selesnya also has enough life gain to prevent you from falling behind too much early, effectively negating fast aggro decks.
I see the decks being:
- Rakdos with nothing over a 4 drop (send most popular, but a trap)
- Selesnya tokens (most popular)
- Izzet/Azorius evasion (sleeper)
- Golgari evasion if you can get a prefect draft (trap)
In general, the creature toughness is higher in RtR and there are more tokens available. RtR contains 7 less creatures with toughness 3 or less at all rarity, but 2 more at common or uncommon. This not a big deal. However, at toughness 4 or higher, RtR contains 18 more creatures with toughness 4 or higher, with 5 more being at common or uncommon. It should also be noted tha that the average token toughness is about 1 point higher than in M13 and there is 1 more 2 for 1 (two creatures for one card) in RtR than M13, with 2 more at common and uncommon.
Note: Not all Tokens are taken into account for toughness count and populate isn't taken into account for 2 for 1 unless the populate card puts in a token at the same time.
RtR has lots of big creatures and tokens, surely WotC would print sweepers and good removal to deal with this so a player who doesn't pull a bomb will have answers? RtR has 3 more removal at uncommon, yet 3 less removal at common for creatures with power 3 or less. RtR does have 1 more removal at common and uncommon for power 4 or higher, typically up to 5, than M13. RtR has two more removal spells which hit all types of creatures at uncommon and the same as M13 for commons. However, only 1 removal spell at common has no restrictions (sacrifice, attacking or blocking, etc.). Most of the removal in RtR costs a lot of mana and/or as additional restrictions on it to make it less effective.
Note: Rare and Mythic Rare removal as not looked at due to lack of availability. Detain and bounce were not looked at either, though enchantments (arrest) were.
In summary, RtR appears to be just like AVR where the removal is very situational and typically at uncommon while the creatures are big dumb dorks. Therefore, he who opens the best rares and/or is left alone while drafting will win. RtR is a luck format, not a skill format. The set also appears to have a heavy amount of rock paper scissors in it with certain guilds having huge advantages against other guilds.
Sad thing is that WotC is going to sell a ton of it because of the shock lands and it being dual color, but the set is a pile of crap in my opinion.