Thanks Dudemichael for your response, I am very grateful.
For the record, I'm not playing LD. My style is more tempo and card advantage, I'm trading my way there (but boy it's expensive!)
But what I fail to understand is why LD faces the same problems as other kinds of "not landing threats" decks. I don't see how it's the same.
Here is what I do understand:
1) Discard: they have lands in play, no cards in hand, topdeck a threat.
2) Spot removal: Hexproof, tokens, countermagic, just not drawing them.
3) Countermagic: wrong answer (negate? essence scatter?), no late game (mana leak? Spell pierce?), cannnot be countered, overwhelmed (aka affinity).
What about LD though? If the LD player has "dead cards", it means an opponent has no lands in play. Most people play fetchlands, if there is enough redundency, like 25 LD cards, they have 90%+ chance of running out of lands in their whole deck unless they really flood.
Threats? What threats are so powerful in the first 2-3 turns that can slip past disruption, dodge sweepers and kill quickly? Delver of Secrets? 3 power a turn. Tarmogoyf? Dies to any removal. Knight of the Relinquery? You're not hitting 3 mana. Dredge is the only true weakness but they're pretty much hated out of the format.
This is a real question: why are land destruction decks not competitive? I am truly curious to know. There must be a thread somewhere with a newbie asking that question, and someone that gave an answer. I don't mean RG aggro with LD disruption, I mean full-on LD in modern.
Pod deck with 6 creatures and 5 life, supposedly dead. HOWEVER...
Could he have
1) killed his own birds of paradise with izzet staticaster
2) pod one of his own creatures, then *fail to search* for another.
3) Rakdos charm resolves, deal 4, Pod player down to one, survives.
Why could he not do this to save himself?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
I would imagine there would be lots of problems with the "babes in metal bikinis" art prevalent on a lot of Magic cards.
Agreed. Card function, card name, card frame appearance, flavour text all matter more. Just use more conservative art in the future and sell to more countries. How many will join/quit MTG in response to changes in artwork policy anyway?!
Jund, on the other hand, though not the epitome of skill-intensivism (I think I just made up that word; not sure), is a lot more so than Affinity. Jund’s win record was 47% at the tournament, but ours was 62%!
By "ours" he's talking about the results of his 10-people-team from channelfireball at pro tour RTR. So, while he agrees that there have been more skill challenging decks, this is a fact that better players get better results with the deck.
Good players can hold a higher winning record than the field with most decks, not just Jund. This logic does not stand. A more sound measure of Jund's prowness is the win percentage team channelfireball enjoys above the field when they use other decks, and then compare.
This is because there are a list of cards being discussed. How about a new forum dedicated to ban list discussions, would it be easier to navigate? So instead of adding a post to page 150, you could start a new thread saying:
[Unban] Card X, Standard format.
[Ban] Card Y, Legacy format.
Second idea, I notice when someone brews a deck and asks for feedback, lots of people say "add card A", but never finishes the sentence with "... and take out card B". Barring rare circumstances, I want my decks to be 60 cards. Is it bad manners to ask people to always say what cards to remove when suggesting what cards to add?
Agreed, Nyx has no trample or evasion. I just can't think of anything better!
1) Maybe give my bird a sword?
2) Or a level-up creature, except I'll need more white mana because black has no playable level-up creature. White's got transcendent master or student of warfare, can't think of anything else.
I am a pox-lover, after working extensively on the archetype in legacy for a few years, but I worry about its potential in a format where loxodon smiter and wilt-leaf liege are fairly popular. Have you had problems dealing with these cards?
Every deck has bad matchups, if GW is popular in a meta then pox is clearly the worse possible choice anyway. I'm not too worried with big vanilla beatsticks, they are annoying but not insurmountable. Nightmare scenario is birthing Pod into their 1 copy of Sigarda, then I'm really screwed.
Sounds like infest should be replaced with Damnation, and then pray I can pox the affinity player out of gas then.
I've been trying a homebrew version of something between discard and pox. I want to buy myself cards for a deck during Christmas so I have something new to play with come 2013.
My homebrew feels like something between these two threads, not sure which one, or if this is totally different:
The plan is to disarm immediate threats with discard spells, tempo them out with smallpox and wrench mind, then gain CA with prolonged Liliana of the Veil presence while generating endless birds for chump-blocking.
Nyxathid puts a clock on, I don't want the game to drag too long. Tombstalker is a much preferred for evasion and racing except I really don't want to utilise the graveyard. In fact, I want to steal wins off decks that do use graveyards in games 2 and 3, which is to say about half of them.
Please kindly comment if it looks interesting, card choice, mana base, sideboard... etc.
How can I get this inspiration back? Please give me some tips or ways that you get inspiration.
Inspiration is not the problem. Everyone has deck ideas everyday. The real problem is coming up with something that stands a chance against "Real Decks".
Spirit Jund Jacob Wilson 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 1st 11/13/2012
Splinter Twin Michael Simon 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
4C Birthing Pod Ryan Hovis 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
RG Tron David Gleicher 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
Spirit Jund Josh Utter-Leyton 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 2nd 11/13/2012
Unburial Gifts Shane McDermott 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
Master Affinity Alex Majlaton 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 3rd - 4th 11/13/2012
Azorius Midrange Edgar Flores 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 3rd - 4th 11/13/2012
4C Birthing Pod Jonas Köstler 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Jund Jeremy Dezani 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 1st 11/5/2012
BUG Aggro Mathieu Hautot 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 3rd - 4th 11/5/2012
Master Affinity Clement Sarton 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Master Affinity Davide Colla 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 3rd - 4th 11/5/2012
Azorius Midrange Emanuel Sutor 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 2nd 11/5/2012
Pyromancer Ascension Olivier Ruel 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Splinter Twin Peter Dun 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Azorius Midrange Eduardo Sajgalik Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
Jund David Ochoa Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 3rd - 4th 10/24/2012
Jund Willy Edel Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
Robots Pedro Carvalho Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
BUG Infect Kelvin Chew Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
Scapeshift Lee Shi Tian Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 3rd - 4th 10/24/2012
Jund Yuuya Watanabe Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 2nd 10/24/2012
Second Breakfast Stanislav Cifka Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 1st 10/24/2012
American Aggro Shahar Shenhar 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
Naya Tron Caleb Estrada 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
American Aggro Chris Piland 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
Affinity Jacob Maynard 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 1st 7/24/2012
American Aggro Max Tietze 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 3rd - 4th 7/24/2012
RUG Aggro Lucas Siow 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 2nd 7/24/2012
Naya Pod Aaron Estrin 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 3rd - 4th 7/24/2012
Jund Orrin Beasley 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
Melira Pod Youichi Nagami 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
Naya Pod Yuuki Yotsumoto 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
BW Tokens Jun’ichi Miyajima 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 1st 7/19/2012
Jund Satoshi Yamaguchi 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 3rd - 4th 7/19/2012
Monoblue Faeries Kei Umehara 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 2nd 7/19/2012
Melira Pod Masaki Ushijima 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
Naya Pod Toshiyuki Kadooka 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 3rd - 4th 7/19/2012
Rakdos Aggro sandydogmtg MTGO Modern Premier - 7/15/12 3rd - 4th 7/19/2012
Master Affinity Hiroya Miyamota 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
I give up. The internet's all-powerful. GP top 8 players are professionals. "We" are normal people. "They" are the sexy poker players in Vegas. The game is solved. These are the decks to play. Nothing else is better. Forget it. It's over.
Discouraged yet?
If you are, you're not a True Magic Player.
What I mean is, definitely keep trying because you can't prove something doesn't exist. However, if you hit something, and win the next major tournament, then you just proved the above paragraph wrong.
I might post something in a few days once I get out of my depression, caused by yet another failed effort.
As far as kitchen table Magic goes, well, frankly, I feel kinda bad when I repeatedly beat on my wife with the latest thing I've brewed up, tested on Forge, then sleeved up once I've done a little tweaking. I'm using her for playtesting, but it's still kitchen table, and I'm playing cutthroat.
Three questions:
1) Why are you engaging in activities involving "winners" and "losers" with loved ones?
2) How did kitchen table and cutthroat end up in the same sentence?
3) Why are you playtesting with someone clearly weaker?
I like decks with cards assembled for a clear purpose and don't mind losing to them. I'm cool with fast combo or solitaire. The opposite of this is "decks with no plan except best cards from every colour".
Which is, of course, made possible because blood moon is easily destroyed, fulminator mage is a joke, tectonic edge is too slow and anathemancer deals less damage than fetches and shocks. Modern format needs something stronger, now.
But thanks for all the feedback from everyone. I'm going to prepare an email soon, hopefully Magic will be more fun in the future!
None, zero, zip. I play to win. I dont enjoy losing, period. I can tho take losses from certain players better then others, doesnt mean I am happy about losing.
But all Magic players lose, 50% average by definition, higher in EDH, lower against a weaker field. You must have studied your defeats, all competitive players do. Which ones made you more upset or less? What decks were they? Surely you remember?
We can keep whinging. OR we can provide constructive feedback. The question is: "What is your favourite deck to lose against?" Nobody likes losing but the game must have at least 50% loss rate, higher in multiplayer games.
The hope is an email list containing: "In descending order, your customers enjoy losing to these 5 types of decks"
For me, it's any deck with cards that are individually not great but combined into a deck to win. Stuff like infect, nivmagus and Second Sunrise.
"Prison" control decks, which aim to lock players out of the resources to cast their spells, while grinding out a slow, gradual long game
Land destruction decks that never let the opponent get off the ground
Lightning-fast combination decks that end the game as quickly, and noninteractively, as possible
"Draw-Go" style counterspell decks that do nothing except counter the opponent's spells
Resource-advantage decks that aim to make Magic a contest of raw attrition
My interpretation of Wizards market research result: players want their powerful rare cards to touch the battlefield. Perfectly understandable.
But if that's the case, then they need to sharply-reduce cards with enter-the-battlefield effects or the damage is done even if I remove it with an instant.
For the record, I'm not playing LD. My style is more tempo and card advantage, I'm trading my way there (but boy it's expensive!)
But what I fail to understand is why LD faces the same problems as other kinds of "not landing threats" decks. I don't see how it's the same.
Here is what I do understand:
1) Discard: they have lands in play, no cards in hand, topdeck a threat.
2) Spot removal: Hexproof, tokens, countermagic, just not drawing them.
3) Countermagic: wrong answer (negate? essence scatter?), no late game (mana leak? Spell pierce?), cannnot be countered, overwhelmed (aka affinity).
What about LD though? If the LD player has "dead cards", it means an opponent has no lands in play. Most people play fetchlands, if there is enough redundency, like 25 LD cards, they have 90%+ chance of running out of lands in their whole deck unless they really flood.
Threats? What threats are so powerful in the first 2-3 turns that can slip past disruption, dodge sweepers and kill quickly? Delver of Secrets? 3 power a turn. Tarmogoyf? Dies to any removal. Knight of the Relinquery? You're not hitting 3 mana. Dredge is the only true weakness but they're pretty much hated out of the format.
A decklist, just to help the thought process:
2 Koth of the Hammer
4 stone rain
3 fulminator mage
4 molten rain
4 rain of tears
4 Smallpox
3 Boom // Bust
3 Geth's Verdict
4 Lightning bolt
1 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Mutavault
4 Blood crypt
4 Arid Mesa
3 Mountains
10 Swamps
4 Blood Moon
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Lodestone Golem
3 Rakdos charm
3 Infest
I seriously don't think anyone's putting terra eternal in their sideboard.
I am watching this Jund vs. Birthing Pod game. Jund player top-decks Rakdos charm at 1:32:36
http://www.twitch.tv/magicprotour/b/358783651
Pod deck with 6 creatures and 5 life, supposedly dead. HOWEVER...
Could he have
1) killed his own birds of paradise with izzet staticaster
2) pod one of his own creatures, then *fail to search* for another.
3) Rakdos charm resolves, deal 4, Pod player down to one, survives.
Why could he not do this to save himself?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Agreed. Card function, card name, card frame appearance, flavour text all matter more. Just use more conservative art in the future and sell to more countries. How many will join/quit MTG in response to changes in artwork policy anyway?!
Good players can hold a higher winning record than the field with most decks, not just Jund. This logic does not stand. A more sound measure of Jund's prowness is the win percentage team channelfireball enjoys above the field when they use other decks, and then compare.
Modern
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=448937
Legacy
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=425820
This is because there are a list of cards being discussed. How about a new forum dedicated to ban list discussions, would it be easier to navigate? So instead of adding a post to page 150, you could start a new thread saying:
[Unban] Card X, Standard format.
[Ban] Card Y, Legacy format.
Second idea, I notice when someone brews a deck and asks for feedback, lots of people say "add card A", but never finishes the sentence with "... and take out card B". Barring rare circumstances, I want my decks to be 60 cards. Is it bad manners to ask people to always say what cards to remove when suggesting what cards to add?
Agreed, Nyx has no trample or evasion. I just can't think of anything better!
1) Maybe give my bird a sword?
2) Or a level-up creature, except I'll need more white mana because black has no playable level-up creature. White's got transcendent master or student of warfare, can't think of anything else.
Problem is these cost 5, 6 and 6. Maximum I'm willing to go is 4. Maybe Phyrexian Obliterator, it's only 5 power but at least it gets through.
Every deck has bad matchups, if GW is popular in a meta then pox is clearly the worse possible choice anyway. I'm not too worried with big vanilla beatsticks, they are annoying but not insurmountable. Nightmare scenario is birthing Pod into their 1 copy of Sigarda, then I'm really screwed.
Sounds like infest should be replaced with Damnation, and then pray I can pox the affinity player out of gas then.
My homebrew feels like something between these two threads, not sure which one, or if this is totally different:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=387414
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=347935
The brew:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Go for the throat
3 Smother
4 Smallpox
4 Wrench Mind
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Nyxathid
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Marsh Flats
9 Swamp
2 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Infest
1 Torpor Orb
2 Cranial Extraction
The plan is to disarm immediate threats with discard spells, tempo them out with smallpox and wrench mind, then gain CA with prolonged Liliana of the Veil presence while generating endless birds for chump-blocking.
Nyxathid puts a clock on, I don't want the game to drag too long. Tombstalker is a much preferred for evasion and racing except I really don't want to utilise the graveyard. In fact, I want to steal wins off decks that do use graveyards in games 2 and 3, which is to say about half of them.
Please kindly comment if it looks interesting, card choice, mana base, sideboard... etc.
Inspiration is not the problem. Everyone has deck ideas everyday. The real problem is coming up with something that stands a chance against "Real Decks".
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp
Splinter Twin Michael Simon 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
4C Birthing Pod Ryan Hovis 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
RG Tron David Gleicher 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
Spirit Jund Josh Utter-Leyton 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 2nd 11/13/2012
Unburial Gifts Shane McDermott 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 5th - 8th 11/13/2012
Master Affinity Alex Majlaton 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 3rd - 4th 11/13/2012
Azorius Midrange Edgar Flores 2012 Grand Prix Chicago - 11/10 3rd - 4th 11/13/2012
4C Birthing Pod Jonas Köstler 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Jund Jeremy Dezani 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 1st 11/5/2012
BUG Aggro Mathieu Hautot 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 3rd - 4th 11/5/2012
Master Affinity Clement Sarton 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Master Affinity Davide Colla 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 3rd - 4th 11/5/2012
Azorius Midrange Emanuel Sutor 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 2nd 11/5/2012
Pyromancer Ascension Olivier Ruel 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Splinter Twin Peter Dun 2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3 5th - 8th 11/5/2012
Azorius Midrange Eduardo Sajgalik Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
Jund David Ochoa Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 3rd - 4th 10/24/2012
Jund Willy Edel Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
Robots Pedro Carvalho Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
BUG Infect Kelvin Chew Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 5th - 8th 10/24/2012
Scapeshift Lee Shi Tian Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 3rd - 4th 10/24/2012
Jund Yuuya Watanabe Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 2nd 10/24/2012
Second Breakfast Stanislav Cifka Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Top 8 1st 10/24/2012
American Aggro Shahar Shenhar 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
Naya Tron Caleb Estrada 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
American Aggro Chris Piland 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
Affinity Jacob Maynard 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 1st 7/24/2012
American Aggro Max Tietze 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 3rd - 4th 7/24/2012
RUG Aggro Lucas Siow 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 2nd 7/24/2012
Naya Pod Aaron Estrin 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 3rd - 4th 7/24/2012
Jund Orrin Beasley 2012 Grand Prix Columbus - 7/21 5th - 8th 7/24/2012
Melira Pod Youichi Nagami 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
Naya Pod Yuuki Yotsumoto 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
BW Tokens Jun’ichi Miyajima 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 1st 7/19/2012
Jund Satoshi Yamaguchi 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 3rd - 4th 7/19/2012
Monoblue Faeries Kei Umehara 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 2nd 7/19/2012
Melira Pod Masaki Ushijima 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
Naya Pod Toshiyuki Kadooka 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 3rd - 4th 7/19/2012
Rakdos Aggro sandydogmtg MTGO Modern Premier - 7/15/12 3rd - 4th 7/19/2012
Master Affinity Hiroya Miyamota 2012 Grand Prix Yokohama - 6/23 5th - 8th 7/19/2012
Brewed deck, test deck, failed to win with decks (mostly with proxies obviously). So maybe I just suck. Maybe try better deck brewers on this forum?
"Deck creation" decks?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=634
"Established" decks?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=633
Nope... none of them work either.
I give up. The internet's all-powerful. GP top 8 players are professionals. "We" are normal people. "They" are the sexy poker players in Vegas. The game is solved. These are the decks to play. Nothing else is better. Forget it. It's over.
Discouraged yet?
If you are, you're not a True Magic Player.
What I mean is, definitely keep trying because you can't prove something doesn't exist. However, if you hit something, and win the next major tournament, then you just proved the above paragraph wrong.
I might post something in a few days once I get out of my depression, caused by yet another failed effort.
Show and tell, 4 LED's, Past in flames, go to town? Sounds more resilient than Omniscience, Emrakul or Dream Halls. Only Venser can counter it.
Three questions:
1) Why are you engaging in activities involving "winners" and "losers" with loved ones?
2) How did kitchen table and cutthroat end up in the same sentence?
3) Why are you playtesting with someone clearly weaker?
I like decks with cards assembled for a clear purpose and don't mind losing to them. I'm cool with fast combo or solitaire. The opposite of this is "decks with no plan except best cards from every colour".
But thanks for all the feedback from everyone. I'm going to prepare an email soon, hopefully Magic will be more fun in the future!
But all Magic players lose, 50% average by definition, higher in EDH, lower against a weaker field. You must have studied your defeats, all competitive players do. Which ones made you more upset or less? What decks were they? Surely you remember?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=462213
We can keep whinging. OR we can provide constructive feedback. The question is: "What is your favourite deck to lose against?" Nobody likes losing but the game must have at least 50% loss rate, higher in multiplayer games.
The hope is an email list containing: "In descending order, your customers enjoy losing to these 5 types of decks"
For me, it's any deck with cards that are individually not great but combined into a deck to win. Stuff like infect, nivmagus and Second Sunrise.
*************************************
Like
Dislike
Thanks a lot for the link!
My interpretation of Wizards market research result: players want their powerful rare cards to touch the battlefield. Perfectly understandable.
But if that's the case, then they need to sharply-reduce cards with enter-the-battlefield effects or the damage is done even if I remove it with an instant.