Most definitely. I usually like a lower land count (usually use 21), but was scared with all the 3-drops:
3x Fiendslayer Paladin (per original list)
4x Geist of St Traft
2x Gift of Orzhova
1x Ajani
Also, I think Alex may have been accidentally brilliant cutting the 4th Scout. Running too many 1/1s is a liability. Cutting the Scout trims this a bit, lets you max one of your power cards (Fiendslayer), and lets you keep 4 Pilgrim to cast Pally and Geist.
I'm still a little worried to cut a land with so many 3-drops, but flood was one of my biggest problems in previous 22 land builds.
New list I'm considering:
4x fiendslayer paladin
4x geist of st traft
4x avacyn's pilgrim
3x gladecover scout
4x invisible stalker
4x ethereal armor
1x gift of orzhova
4x unflinching courage
4x rancor
4x spectral flight
1x ajani
2x simic charm
2x glacial fortress
2x hinterland harbor
4x hallowed fountain
4x temple garden
4x sunpetal grove
4x breeding pool
1x overgrown tomb
SB
4x voice of resurgence
2x mending touch
1x ray of revelation
2x fog
2x nearhearth pilgrim
3x negate
1x ajani
Not sure simic charm is the charm to use since all your threats are effectively hexproof anyway. I also found 22 to be too floody and 21 to be too inconsistent, but found the sweet spot with 21 and 2-3 abundant growth. I think between unflinching courage and fiendslayer pally our aggro matchup is pretty much solidified, at this point we should be focusing on consistency.
Yea, I know Alex and he asked me for my list. He lost his win-and-in to Sacher on the back of Profit//Loss.
He said the only real change he'd make is to maybe drop a land, but it sounded like the deck worked great for him all day. I need to discuss his experience with it more to see if he had any other relevant experiences as I haven't gotten to play the deck in real life yet (just online). I should get a fair number of iterations in this weekend though (FNM + Super IQ).
The other two top 16 Hexproof lists look pretty awful. 4 Curiosity, 3 Spectral Flight, 3 Sunpetal Grove in the 10th place list is obviously wrong. The G/W lands are your best ones and should be maxed nearly always. Spectral Flight was one of the best cards in the deck before, and is even more important with Gladecover Scout. Curiosity is not at all where I want to be with the deck. It's only good with Invisible Stalker and is nigh useless without Stalker or a trample/flying enchantment (which he cut one of). The 11th place list is a little better, but Witchstalker and Selesnya Charm seem sub-optimal. I want to include some interaction in the main (my list has none), but Ajani has been over-performing in those slots. His effect is very powerful and as a one-of, your opponent can rarely afford to play around him.
Aww, feel bad for the guy. I think his win and in was on camera and he choked, a pro was commenting on it on reddit (Josh Silvestri):
I agree with Ajani going back in the main, he's a card that can turn gladecover into a relevant threat in grindy topdeck scenarios and can steal games on his own.
The problem with gladecover in bant is that there aren't enough turn 2 auras to make him a relevant threat. It might be worth considering running 2-3 abundant growth again and upping the number of turn 1 green sources to 11-12 while dropping the land count to 21. The higher number of green sources will let you ast T1 pilgrim/gladecover more often. Having abundant growth lets you run less land more safely and cast all your double white spells (Ajani/Pally/GoO) as well as increasing your aura density somewhat for turn plays with ethereal armor.
On the one hand I like that the thread is getting busy, but along with that there's quite a bit of 'outside the box thinking', discussion of budget cards and other stuff that really isn't a good fit for the thread.
I've already gotten a complaint from someone about the direction the thread is going. I'm not going to name names and I'm not going to make an example out of anyone's suggestions because I honestly don't want to be that guy anyways. I took over the primer because it needed to be done. This isn't my thread, it's our thread.
All the same there are some general guidelines you should keep in mind. Nothing will happen to you if you don't follow these suggestions but a few of us might not respond to you anymore. Besides - it's better to contribute positively to the thread, isn't it?
[INDENT]1. Don't make a suggestion unless you've already got (or are getting) the card and you're planning to play with it for a while.
I'll craft a totally fake example demonstrating what not to do:
"Hey guys I didn't try it yet but I really think the deck would be more better if we splashed black and red and started running rakdos charm! What do you think?"
Don't be that guy. If you aren't willing to test the card yourself then you'd be better off not posting anything at all.
2. Test the card. Play with the card you're testing. Also play with the standard version of the deck while you're at it. You also need to test it against other decks and other archetypes. This is important. Use the card.
3. Report your findings. Make it a useful report. Don't give us a bad report. Here's an example of a bad report:
"Hey guys I didn't have that card you said I needed so I tried Azor's Elocutors instead. I played one round and I won when my opponent didn't get a third source of mana. Seems powerful, what do you think?!"
...
Can we all be on the same page with this?
/signed
I assume you were talking about me in regards to the complaints. Thanks for posting this, I really hope people read it.
Not to be a nag but the primer could be touched up to address some of these questions/discussion points we keep seeing over and over. I can volunteer to clean up the mulligan guide and sideboarding guide again for post-DGM unless someone else wants to do it (preferably someone with a lot of high-level competitive experience).
It might also be a good idea to make the primer more concise so there's not excessive information. Keep it straightforward - concept, winning decklists, mulligans, sideboarding. Putting too much info adds a lot of overhead maintenance when the meta shifts or new sets come out (M14) and makes it less likely for people to key-in on the important topics.
I think if you can't find X amount of Geist of Saint Trafts, you run Elgaud Shieldmate... pairing her with a Voice of Resurgence or a Fencing Ace is basically GG
How is shieldmate even in discussion when comparing to Lawmage? They're both sub-optimal but shieldmate is not even close...
Same CMC
No evasion
Requires a second body
Less power
Is a consensus emerging as to the number/choice of Loxodon Smiter, Fencing Ace and Voice of Resurgence? It seems that most people seems to favor 4 Smiter/Voice and no Ace. What do the more experienced players (with this deck) think? Is Ace's time done?
Also: For the rest of the standard PTQ season, would it be smart to play 2-3 Sundering Growths in the sideboard? Looking at the states top 8 decklists, it looks like this deck is significantly rising in popularity...
The only consensus is that we all have either 4 strangleroot or 4 voice mainboard.
The remaining creatures vary but most MODO versions that have 4-0'd dailys recently have run 4 smiters main whereas paper magic most top 16s have run 4 fencing ace main. Honestly I don't think there's a definitive best choice, it all depends on the player. Fencing ace is for players who can stomach more risk and like to gamble, smiter is for the opposite kind of player. I myself prefer 7-8 resilient creatures between Strangleroot/VoR and alternate sources of doublestrike (Silverblade/Ajani).
I'd say here's the best way to decide based on your expected meta: Aggro -> Smiters Control/UWR Midrange/Jund Midrange -> 4 more Strangleroots/Voice Reanimator / Bant Auras -> Fencing Ace
Sundering growth is not as good as ray of revelation or Fog in the mirror IMO.
The sideboard could have probably used a little more work, but the Strangleroot Geists definitely put in a TON of work. I didn't miss the graveyard hate because I never played against Junk Rites, and to be honest I don't even know if it's necessary because it already seems like a really good matchup.
I'm still learning a lot of the nuances of the deck, but I think I still played pretty well for it only being the second tournament I played with the deck.
Congrats, solid modo list and pretty smooth sailing versus Jund there in the finals.
What do you think about taking smiters out of the main and running strangleroot instead? I was running almost the same build and I sided them in just about every matchup.
Ive been playing the deck (mb scg open lists) with decent amount of succes, ptq high finish and ofc the fnm win:)
i feel in potential the deck is unstoppable, if you draw right an entire day you can take home any tournament. This is also the weakness to the deck: many cluncky hands. You could argue that good mulligan makes the better player, but sometimes the hands are just frustrating. Mana color missing, no creature or no way to make your geist evasive.
Point to all this obvious talk: could curiosity mb make for more consistency? And if so, could we play Sigarda as 1 or 2 off?
final note: i hate playing fencing ace often BUT mulligan to 5, play ace, next turn play rancor rancor ethereal armor swing for 16... Steal that game, thats why i love the aceman in the deck and people must understand this sick ability:P
If you want more consistency abundant growth is what you're looking for.
Rest in peace shuts off strangleroot, voice and rancor
Edit: if you think it's really necessary to have any side for reanimator, Ground seal does the same thing as RIP for zero card disadvantage (it cantrips). If they use an abrupt decay on your ground seal, they are down a card and you don't have to worry about them using it on your unflinching courage / spectral / etc..
I have yet to encounter a scenario where I don't have a creature on board and I need to Spell Rupture something. However, I do see your point, I'm just not totally convinced to switch to Negate because of rupture's ability to counter creature spells.
-Also, great job on maintaing the primer. Hopefully the mods will move it to the proven section soon, considering the recent success the deck has had.
I have to agree with everyone else here. Against any deck playing creatures worth countering (midrange / control), their creatures are the last things we care about. Against aggro the creatures are so small that you're not gaining any advantage by countering over removing or just outracing. With these points, negate is the only counterspell this deck needs. We're not delver, we don't care about our opponent's board we just care about protecting from their means of interrupting our game plan.
Regarding fog, what turn is it that you are saving yourself with a fog? The last turn? With CC's as low as this deck has, why not riot control? Are you really needing to cast something else to use your mana turn 4/5?
You use your mana to expand your board and race and you use fog on the attack that would be lethal. We don't use riot control because we have to be able to expand our board still or the fog effect won't win us the race.
You cast fog when you're not the beatdown in the matchup - read Mike Flores' "Who's the Beatdown?"
If both decks are playing aggression strategies, the deck that kills faster wins. Fog puts you a turn ahead and lures them into overcommitting to an attack. You cast it on the turn that they'd be swinging for lethal. You also have to set it up by attacking - if you can't kill them the turn after they commit to an alpha and you use fog then you just did nothing.
Well I had given this deck up two weeks before it won the NJ Grand Prix and wandered off to play Zombies. I may come back to this deck instead. I see it has gotten some great tools from GTC and DGM.
Was looking over the list that did well at SCG and also the list that BFM just posted, and what is the purpose behind Ray of Revelation? Just the mirror match? Also, BFM's list has no GY hate. Are we really just not that worried about reanimator?
When would you actually bring in fog?
Just realized that I'm BFM lol.
Ray is for the mirror, or against the oddball esper deck that's milling you and casting d-sphere (not very common).
Correct about the lack of GY hate, the matchup is that easy if you play correctly. Been running it this way for a while and have not had a problem with reanimator in a fairly competitive setting. I think our matchups are highly polarized, they're either really easy (reanimator and most midrange) or they're somewhat difficult (naya blitz or any aggro deck running Thalia main, esper control). I'm not going to waste slots against decks that are easy, instead I'll devote all slots to our most challenging MUs.
Fog comes in for the mirror or any aggro (esp blitz) since those games usually come down to a single turn.
Not sure simic charm is the charm to use since all your threats are effectively hexproof anyway. I also found 22 to be too floody and 21 to be too inconsistent, but found the sweet spot with 21 and 2-3 abundant growth. I think between unflinching courage and fiendslayer pally our aggro matchup is pretty much solidified, at this point we should be focusing on consistency.
Aww, feel bad for the guy. I think his win and in was on camera and he choked, a pro was commenting on it on reddit (Josh Silvestri):
http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/1isa06/richmonds_top_32_decks/cb7lwz7?context=1
I agree with Ajani going back in the main, he's a card that can turn gladecover into a relevant threat in grindy topdeck scenarios and can steal games on his own.
The problem with gladecover in bant is that there aren't enough turn 2 auras to make him a relevant threat. It might be worth considering running 2-3 abundant growth again and upping the number of turn 1 green sources to 11-12 while dropping the land count to 21. The higher number of green sources will let you ast T1 pilgrim/gladecover more often. Having abundant growth lets you run less land more safely and cast all your double white spells (Ajani/Pally/GoO) as well as increasing your aura density somewhat for turn plays with ethereal armor.
Something like:
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Witchstalker
4x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Selesnya Charm
3x Boros Charm
2x Simic Charm
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Madcap Skills
4x Unflinching Courage
22x Land
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11200
Edit: Just realized he's one of our own and has posted about his wins here. DJQuixote, great article.
/signed
I assume you were talking about me in regards to the complaints. Thanks for posting this, I really hope people read it.
Not to be a nag but the primer could be touched up to address some of these questions/discussion points we keep seeing over and over. I can volunteer to clean up the mulligan guide and sideboarding guide again for post-DGM unless someone else wants to do it (preferably someone with a lot of high-level competitive experience).
It might also be a good idea to make the primer more concise so there's not excessive information. Keep it straightforward - concept, winning decklists, mulligans, sideboarding. Putting too much info adds a lot of overhead maintenance when the meta shifts or new sets come out (M14) and makes it less likely for people to key-in on the important topics.
How is shieldmate even in discussion when comparing to Lawmage? They're both sub-optimal but shieldmate is not even close...
Same CMC
No evasion
Requires a second body
Less power
The only consensus is that we all have either 4 strangleroot or 4 voice mainboard.
The remaining creatures vary but most MODO versions that have 4-0'd dailys recently have run 4 smiters main whereas paper magic most top 16s have run 4 fencing ace main. Honestly I don't think there's a definitive best choice, it all depends on the player. Fencing ace is for players who can stomach more risk and like to gamble, smiter is for the opposite kind of player. I myself prefer 7-8 resilient creatures between Strangleroot/VoR and alternate sources of doublestrike (Silverblade/Ajani).
I'd say here's the best way to decide based on your expected meta:
Aggro -> Smiters
Control/UWR Midrange/Jund Midrange -> 4 more Strangleroots/Voice
Reanimator / Bant Auras -> Fencing Ace
Sundering growth is not as good as ray of revelation or Fog in the mirror IMO.
Congrats, solid modo list and pretty smooth sailing versus Jund there in the finals.
What do you think about taking smiters out of the main and running strangleroot instead? I was running almost the same build and I sided them in just about every matchup.
If you want more consistency abundant growth is what you're looking for.
Rest in peace shuts off strangleroot, voice and rancor
Edit: if you think it's really necessary to have any side for reanimator, Ground seal does the same thing as RIP for zero card disadvantage (it cantrips). If they use an abrupt decay on your ground seal, they are down a card and you don't have to worry about them using it on your unflinching courage / spectral / etc..
I have to agree with everyone else here. Against any deck playing creatures worth countering (midrange / control), their creatures are the last things we care about. Against aggro the creatures are so small that you're not gaining any advantage by countering over removing or just outracing. With these points, negate is the only counterspell this deck needs. We're not delver, we don't care about our opponent's board we just care about protecting from their means of interrupting our game plan.
You use your mana to expand your board and race and you use fog on the attack that would be lethal. We don't use riot control because we have to be able to expand our board still or the fog effect won't win us the race.
You cast fog when you're not the beatdown in the matchup - read Mike Flores' "Who's the Beatdown?"
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/23775-Eight-Core-Principles-Of-Whos-The-Beatdown.html
If both decks are playing aggression strategies, the deck that kills faster wins. Fog puts you a turn ahead and lures them into overcommitting to an attack. You cast it on the turn that they'd be swinging for lethal. You also have to set it up by attacking - if you can't kill them the turn after they commit to an alpha and you use fog then you just did nothing.
Just realized that I'm BFM lol.
Ray is for the mirror, or against the oddball esper deck that's milling you and casting d-sphere (not very common).
Correct about the lack of GY hate, the matchup is that easy if you play correctly. Been running it this way for a while and have not had a problem with reanimator in a fairly competitive setting. I think our matchups are highly polarized, they're either really easy (reanimator and most midrange) or they're somewhat difficult (naya blitz or any aggro deck running Thalia main, esper control). I'm not going to waste slots against decks that are easy, instead I'll devote all slots to our most challenging MUs.
Fog comes in for the mirror or any aggro (esp blitz) since those games usually come down to a single turn.