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  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    I agree his list is a little ambitious, wanting to hit RR on turn 3 and UU on turn 4, but could it be made to work with Transguild Promenade? There was some discussion earlier in the thread about using Shimmering Grotto and Unknown Shores to smooth out the mana base, and Transguild Promenade is virtually identical to them except the extra mana investment is only for one turn. It's not the most ideal turn 2 play, but it seems like it would make the mana much more attainable for a list that wants to run multiple double casting cost cards on turns 3-5. If we're willing to run lands that come into play tapped anyway, maybe this would be an option?
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    I'm not sure I agree with using Chandra in a controllish shell, mainly because her 0 ability doesn't work well with the abundance of situational instants and sorceries that the deck may not want to cast on demand. I think Ral Zarek is better than Chandra for a deck like this, and that's saying something considering he isn't spectacular. Personally, I think a tap-out Grixis list should be content with Jace and Ashiok, but I'll admit I haven't tested enough with Ral Zarek to come to a conclusion.

    Other than that, I think the deck could use an extra win condition or two. Interesting take on the deck, though.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from i-never-smile

    Look, if you're afraid of one deck, put 8 cards in your sideboard to stop it. If you don't want Dissolve against a deck (for some reason), board it out. It's not that complicated. Aggro decks are actually really, really easy to beat--if you decide you want to beat them. If you're half-assing it, then you're screwed. But if you have a strong sideboard plan and you mulligan into a draw that curves out to react to the aggro deck's curve, then you can punt game 1 and win matches 2-1 against any aggro deck.


    I think we'll simply have to agree to disagree, just so the discussion can continue. My view for the main deck is for it to be favourable against aggro as I've found my list to be extremely comfortable to play in a mid to late-game scenario against most midrange or control shells, even while running some superfluous removal. I rarely feel as if I'm behind on card advantage or relevant board presence, and perhaps it's just the particular list I've been running, but the majority of late-game matches I've played have been stellar. On the other hand, aggro has been the trump so far, and I'm less comfortable relying mostly on my sideboard to bail me out of two consecutive games against aggro as compared to midrange or control.

    Essentially, I believe more immediate answers to aggro in the mainboard is better, since the nature of the midrange and control matchups gives us time to draw into our relevant spells. Sideboarding for midrange or control massively improves what have already been positive matchups for me, but like most other posts in this thread, YMMV.

    I'm not trying to say either version of the deck is superior, because yes, it's very much metagame-oriented and no single decklist will likely come out on top until the metagame crystallizes. I'm just outlining what my testing has yielded and basing it on the assumption that RDW is likely to be the benchmark to overcome immediately post-rotation.

    I'd be interested in hearing how others are faring in their testing to decrease some of the conjecture and get the discussion back on track, as that is why we're here Grin
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from The Other Guy
    Agree wholehartedly on your stance towards counters and their future relevance but at the same time I cannot get behind the '16 counters or bust' argument. It's a numbers game and a balancing act that will take some time getting right. The mechanics havn't been in our favor in a very long time and while that gives us a big boost we need to also respect the limitations that can be placed on us by going to deep into any one strategy.


    This is essentially what I was trying to get at in my previous post. Counters are fine, even required in some matchups, but I believe most of us would agree that aggro is the matchup that will give the deck the most trouble. Syncopate and Essence Scatter are extremely good in this regard, but I believe any 3 CMC counters begin lose their lustre when it might not be uncommon for some decks to have 5-7 power on the board before you can drop your third land (BTE, Smiter, etc...). I agree that won't be the case in every game, I'm just of the opinion that more of a balance between removal and counters needs to be struck.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from Rjl
    You're probably right, perhaps in a deck that could recur it or something but I agree it's almost certainly wrong here.

    I haven't been able to test for a couple of days, so am stuck just brainstorming without data, hence potentially producing stupid ideas...

    I'm currently pondering giving up grixis and playing UWR as a more solid deck to handle non-control matches, though I think I'd rather be in grixis.

    Hero's Downfall for instance is sweet, also sweet is making 95+% of plays at instant speed.

    It does feel very hard to get the deck right though...

    Lands: 26 (pretty much bare minimum)

    Finishers 3 (bare minimum when playing augury)

    Draw 10-11 (seems to be the way we're going, 4 inspiration, 4 auguary, 2-3 thoughtflare/oppurtunity)

    Counters 10-15

    That leaves between 11 and 5 slots for anything else.

    I fear that with any list that's only got 5 cards in the "anything else" slots fast aggro match ups will be pretty much unwinable.

    The question is how to balance these numbers, more counters = better in the late game, more non-counters = better early.

    More expensive answers like Hero's Downfall, Far//Away etc = better in the late game.

    Cheaper answers, Doom Blade, Shock etc = better in the early game.

    I guess the only thing to do is test excessively and guess the meta.


    Assuming the aggro matchup will be the deck's biggest worry, as it's been in past standard seasons, I'm of the opinion that 10-15 counters is simply too many to include in the main deck. Our draw spells allow us to mostly keep pace with Esper/UWR until the very late game, so I believe we should be tweaking lists to handle the aggro matchup. We can afford to play a longer game against control, as that's what's expected, but against aggro, we need immediate answers or the game ends before we can gain any card advantage. As a result, I don't think I'd run any more than 8 main deck counters, and these would be a mix of Syncopate, Essence Scatter and Psychic Strike (due to the easier mana cost as compared to Dissolve). Furthermore, playing Thoughtflare allows the deck some leeway to run certain cards that dead against control as we can simply discard them, and I think that is a trade-off the deck should be willing to make to shore up its aggro matchup.

    The setup I'd be aiming for, at least for a draw-go list, would be something along the lines of:

    26 land
    9-11 draw spells
    8 counters
    3 finishers
    12-14 removal spells
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Here's a quick tap-out version of the deck that I came up with. I haven't gotten to test it much, but it's (quite) loosely based on the block version of the deck that was so successful. First, the list I jumbled together:



    It's a fairly preliminary list, but I already have some initial observations. I'm still debating whether or not to include Ral Zarek since he doesn't seem strong in any particular matchup. I guess the case could be made that he's extra removal against aggro, but he comes out on turn 4, which is always a turn later than I'd like to see him. One of the advantages of running Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, on the other hand, is that he immediately provides a 5-life buffer zone that can be difficult to deal with, especially on the play. The ability to potentially pump out blockers as protection is also useful.

    I initially relegated Izzet Staticaster to the sideboard in favour of Omenspeaker simply to avoid having a card that is borderline useless in certain matchups, but I may have to reconsider. Blitz aggro can be one of this deck's weaknesses and control is one of our favourable matchups, so it might be worthwhile to mainboard the Staticasters to improve our game 1 odds against aggro. That would conceivably allow the deck to run less removal in the mainboard and add more utility to improve first matches against control. Anger of the Gods with Staticaster seems pretty bad though, but maybe it's a necessary sacrifice.

    Thoughts and concerns are appreciated!
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Just to inspire some additional discussion, I'll post my list as well:



    Some comments: Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius has been hit or miss. I've found him quite good in some aggro matchups to close out the game, but obviously kind of lackluster against control. It's arguable that against aggro, he's just a win-more card, but it hasn't always been the case. I may end up cutting him, but who doesn't like drawing cards off him?

    As for my draw suite, I'm a huge fan of Thoughtflare despite the drawback. It digs as much as Opportunity for one less mana, but that could always be an argument just to play more Opportunitys considering the net card loss. I haven't tested an additional copy of Steam Augury over 1 Thoughtflare, so I can't comment on that. A fourth Inspiration might just round things out.

    The removal package is pretty standard and obviously will be dependent on the metagame, as will the sideboard.

    Testing has been great. Esper is a fine match pre-board and gets much better afterward. There hasn't been one dominant aggro deck that I've faced yet, but 14 removal spells along with counters has worked well so far in the general matchup. I'd love to come up with an equally suitable tap-out version running the solid planeswalkers available to Grixis, though, as I think those versions might have a better aggro matchup but a worse control one.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Simic Flash/ Aggro
    I like where you're trying to go with this list. I've been testing a similar version of this deck on Cockatrice since Patrick Chapin posted an article about it on SCG last week. His version, and the version I've been testing, is pure aggro as it runs no non-creature spells, and it has struggled in certain matchups so I've considered morphing it into more of a tempo build.

    In terms of the deck itself, I'll echo some previous posters and say that the deck seems to simply lack a powerful win condition. In the aggro mirror, you may end up wanting something that can go over the top in tense board stalls, so I'm of the opinion that you should include Polukranos and/or Kalonian Hydra as curve-topping wincons. This is purely based on my experience with Chapin's deck, as any deck with a reasonable amount of burn can leave you with an underwhelming board presence. Master Biomancer is also a possible option to circumvent this.

    In terms of spells, I'll also have debate the quality of Spell Rupture. I haven't tested with it at all, but it just seems too unreliable to be of any use. Most of the time, I think I would prefer Syncopate, if only because it stops annoyances like Chandra's Phoenix. Spell Rupture can have its advantages in the midrange matchup when you're allowed some board presence, but it just seems iffy to maindeck it. Maybe I'll have to playtest it to be sure.

    If I had to come up with a list, here's what I'd be likely to run:



    I'm still on the fence about Bow of Nylea for a tempo deck, but I think the extra reach it provides in the form of deathtouch can be useful. I also removed Warrior's Lesson as I couldn't find room to fit it in, but maybe in testing it'll prove advantageous. Finally, I think the Polukranos, World Eater vs Kalonian Hydra debate is one of personal preference. I like Polukranos because he can be a useful one-time removal spell, particularly as a mana sink against tokens. Then again, the Hydra is a must-answer threat. I've chosen Polukranos as it keeps the curve lower which I think is important for a tempo deck.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] Gu Evolve
    I just loaded up a list similar to Chapin's on Cockatrice and began testing, and the deck feels really fun to play! I tweaked his list around ever so slightly and here's what I ended up testing:




    I'm not sure how I feel about Gyre Sage to be perfectly honest. In my limited testing, it's felt pretty underwhelming, and I've thought about replacing it with something like Drakewing Krasis which is a solid Evolve trigger, or Elusive Krasis to get some mid-game reach. I haven't tested against anything running Supreme Verdict yet, so I'll see if that leads me to splash a third colour. It's been loads of fun so far, though!
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [[THS]] Post Theros Standard Decks
    Patrick Chapin recently posted an article on SCG about a U/G Evolve aggro deck that definitely got my attention, especially because I thought Evolve was one of the most interesting mechanics to come out of the RTR block. Now that it appears that blitz aggro is being toned down for the coming rotation, I tweaked his list a bit and began testing, to some pretty interesting results. Here's the deck:



    Obviously, with exactly 0 noncreature spells, this deck might appear to be weak to sweepers, but I haven't experienced that yet, mostly because you can afford not to overcommit if you're curving out. I don't know how I feel about Gyre Sage, and I was considering replacing it either with Drakewing Krasis or the new 2/1 flyer from 1U in Theros. Overall it feels pretty fun and I like that it's skill-testing in terms of maximizing damage with Evolve.
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on [Deck] B/W Humans
    With The Aristocrats losing the majority of its useful interactions with the rotation, I've been mulling over a list that makes use of the base that remains. What I've come up with is more of a weenie aggro strategy than The Aristocrats was, but it also has some neat interactions that I'm hoping will increase its potential in the midrange matchup. Namely, it uses Xathrid Necromancer to turn every Human into a pseudo-Undying creature, and Dark Prophecy to provide a continuous source of card advantage. The value provided by Dark Prophecy has yet to be tested, but on the surface it seems to be the tool that Aggro needs in order to push through in the Midrange matchup. Let's look at the deck itself.

    1. The card advantage engine

    Xathrid Necromancer - As mentioned earlier, he essentially grants every one of your humans Undying. Makes board wipes in the control match ineffective and gives you card advantage in the aggro and midrange mirrors. A definite powerhouse.
    Dark Prophecy - I was extremely skeptical of this card when it was first spoiled. On the surface, it looked pretty average due to it being a do-nothing enchantment for the most part. Then I began to consider the implications if it was included in an aggro shell as a way of refueling one's hand rather than in a midrange or control deck. One of the main concerns for aggro against midrange decks is that if it cannot win by turn 6 or 7, then it tends to simply gets outclassed in terms of quality of creatures. What if the aggro player was allowed to suicide his creatures to get in several points of damage while replenishing his hand and restocking the board in the process? That is my aim with this card, and I have no idea if it will work, but it could be worth a shot.

    2. Creature considerations

    1 CMC

    Boros Elite - Really the only solid option we have at the 1 CMC spot. Without the battalion trigger, however, it's not particularly exciting.

    2 CMC

    Cartel Aristocrat - The Aristocrats' namesake continues to provide an advantage in this deck, particularly with the Necromancer/Dark Prophecy engines online.
    High Priest of Penance - Not a terribly strong choice for an aggro deck, admittedly, but it makes blocking a pain. I'm mostly undecided, but have included it in the final list for testing purposes.
    Imposing Sovereign - A pretty good inclusion, particularly in the aggro mirror.
    Precinct Captain - The somewhat restrictive casting cost for turn 2, especially considering Dark Prophecy's BBB cost, makes him less appealing.

    Thrill-Kill Assassin - I haven't tested this card yet, but a 2/3 deathtouch for 2 seems like it could be decent.
    Azorius Arrester - Meh, a one-time use ability on a card that really provides no other advantage
    Daring Skyjek - As with Boros Elite, this card is fairly plain without Battalion online. 3 damage in the air is certainly nothing to scoff at, though.
    Vizkopa Guildmage - Provides no real benefit to this deck

    3 CMC

    Banisher Priest - Removal on a stick seems like it's pretty good.
    Fiendslayer Paladin - In the majority of matchups, I would rather have Banisher Priest over this, however it is a definite sideboard option.
    Frontline Medic - A potential powerhouse card with a significantly-relevant Battalion effect, assuming it doesn't get responded-to in combat and you get blown out because of it. Tentatively, this is what I have chosen not to include in anticipation of testing Dark Prophecy, so it may be included in a later iteration of the deck.
    Sin Collector - Another possible sideboard card as a 2/1 for 3 with an ability that might not be relevant in all matchups is somewhat underpowered.

    Lifebane Zombie - It's not a Human, but it's definitely a beating and I think it is worthy of a spot in the main deck. Very useful for breaking board stalls in some matchups.

    4 CMC

    Nothing particularly interesting for the time being

    5 CMC

    Obzedat, Ghost Council - Provides some potential late-game reach and a way to recoup the life loss with Dark Prophecy. Again, it's not a Human, but Ghost Daddy provides too much of an advantage to pass up.

    3. Spells

    1 CMC

    Thoughtseize - In the absence of a turn 1 creature drop, this is generally the card you would want to see most in your opening hand. A pretty safe inclusion
    Duress - A sub-optimal Thoughtseize with no real need to be included due to its chance to miss. Perhaps a sideboard option.

    2 CMC

    Doom Blade - Possibly the strongest removal spell available to this deck.
    Orzhov Charm - Another powerful removal spell, with the downside of causing significant loss of life, which could be problematic with this deck's engine. Its other modes may also be relevant depending on particular builds.

    I haven't gone into as much depth with the spell considerations as there aren't too many that are particularly attractive outside of removal spells. I will add more to the discussion once I have some more free time, however.

    Here is the list that I have come up with and will be testing as soon as I get around to it. Comments and concerns are appreciated.



    The mana base is also up for debate due to some heavy color requirements. Testing may let me know whether I have to tweak some of my card choices, or whether I need to add some sub-par lands such as Orzhov Guildgate or the new scry lands.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] BW Humans
    I've been mulling over a post-rotation list similar to some of the decks posted above, but with the majority of Theros still left to be spoiled, there are some changes left to be made. Basically, since the deck loses its good token-producers and therefore its best sac targets post-rotation, I've been toying around with the idea of getting advantage in other ways. Specifically, I'm looking to test how good Dark Prophecy will be as an alternate way of getting ahead, either if Xathrid Necromancer gets destroyed, or in conjunction with him to get decent card advantage. Also, it makes board wipes fairly ineffective. Here's my list so far:



    It's a very rough draft, so far, especially with no indication of how the metagame will shape up. That being said, I'm looking forward to testing Dark Prophecy to determine whether it provides enough card advantage to justify it over something like Frontline Medic which directly impacts our offense. It's obviously a risky card to play in certain situations in an aggro mirror, but at the same time it makes trading creatures much more profitable. Against control, as stated above, it makes board wipes ineffective as it allows the deck to immediately replenish its hand. By diversifying card advantage generation away from Xathrid Necromancer by itself, the chances of running out of steam after turn 5 or 6 are diminished. Here's to hoping playtesting actually reflects that!
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Is black having problems?
    Quote from italofoca
    From this thread i constantly see people affirming mono black decks ("black stand on it's own") should be a thing while no mono deck is a thing in constructed. Mono-color is not a thing for any color. What was the last time you saw mono white, mono green or mono blue on tier 1 ?

    Seriously, mono black is still much better then those three. The only reason there are so many complaints is because the mono-black is sort of supported (mutilate and friends), people try it, fail, and get mad, while WotC doesn't even give hopes to other mono archetypes. Ever saw any one considering playing mono blue on standard ? Not since Urza's Block !


    Then Wizards needs to stop promoting cards that depend entirely on Swamps or that are restrictively-costed while ignoring that Black suffers because of it. The reason mono-Black is discussed as an archetype more often is because they insist on churning out cards like Mutilate, Crypt Ghast, Liliana of the Dark Realms, and Corrupt in M14, etc... which require a predominantly Black base to even be usable, but there is little else printed to promote mono-Black playability, so they end up as wasted development space. Aside from some outlier cards in other colours, Black has by far the most cards that encourage mono-colour gameplay in terms of mechanics or casting cost, but since it's a non-viable strategy in Standard, players may think of those cards as space that may have been better used elsewhere.

    From a colour-pie perspective, it makes sense flavourwise, as Black is the colour of selfishness and self-importance. From a gameplay perspective, however, it makes little sense to keep printing 'Swamps matter' cards that end up useless because they're part of a non-competitive playstyle. I realize this isn't an exclusively-Black issue, but several of these 'Swamps matter' cards have been part of the potential highlights for Black in recent sets, yet they end up tanking because mono-Black is not a fleshed-out game plan.

    Note that this post was made with a semi-competitive aspect in mind and does not reflect the use of these cards in a kitchen-table environment.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Dual Lands IRL
    Plosky Tolbalchik, a volcano complex in Eastern Russia (R/B)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on [New Info] More 10 card cycles for dual lands
    I think they should wait for the RTR block to rotate before doing this due to the abundance of goodstuff decks that are encouraged. I don't think players should be punished for wishing to play a particular combination of colours, but there should be some opportunity cost to encourage creativity and experimentation.

    As an aside, I wouldn't mind seeing the painland cycle again as a bit of a throwback. That said, I believe there was an article published that claimed newer players didn't like being pinged every time they wanted coloured mana, so I'm skeptical that they will be reprinted.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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