You might be better off building a "white trash" deck that utilizes RIP and helm. White trash has a placed well in the past. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2545&d=216541 with 9 land destruction effects and anti-search cards shutting down fetch lands and other tutors the deck has decent match ups. Building your helm combo around it would also give you an alternate win condition.
Another option would be running enlightened tutor, your combo, and a series of silver bullet enchantments/artifacts.
Civic Saber would let you have knights 5-8...sort of. Without something like green sun zenith to find the knight I imagine you lose a lot of consistency. The Saber might help with that a little.
Rotlung Reanimator is the last card I need to pick up for my mono-black cleric deck. It seems like it would be outstanding for your deck idea. It lets willingly trade with opponents without as many concerns, and it opens the door to using some of the sacrifice combos should you change your mind on that route.
Here is the combo in a vintage control shell that shares it's colors. It's pretty much just rammed in there, but it give the OP a slightly better idea what a combo/control deck might look like in vintage. In no way should this list be considered good or playable, it's just to give an example of power.
Ultimately as a vintage combo I doubt it would work. Three card combo's leave too much open for disruption. The mana cost (though reasonable) would suffer against sphere effects from shops, and it would be inconsistent at best against other decks.
In legacy the combo might stand a better chance, but the OP's deck list would need to reflect force of will, and a stronger mana base. Again it's hurt by being three cards. It sounds silly saying that 3 cards make playing it harder, but it's true. Having to find just one more card can mean the game against aggro decks in any format.
In modern the combo might work, though I'm not familiar with the tools that would be built into the deck around it. I'm fairly sure that a modern control build would be questionable though, since the format lacks all the 'free' counters.
In casual, or casual multi-player this combo wins. Once it's assembled you could use all that mana to play half your deck and then tendrils/empty the warrens out to win the game, even against 5 or 6 players.
Hopefully that might help you decide how and what to change your deck OP. If you do go the vintage route I can't wait to see what you put together .
A morphboard or transformative sideboard isn't a new idea in magic by any means, it's not even a new idea in dredge, but I don't think that the idea has been presented in anything but half whispers of deck lists rather than in detail. Why try a morph board?
1.) You're a terrible dredge player and can't play around the hate.--Playing around the hate is what makes a dredge player good, but it's getting harder and harder game two, with opponents regularly resolving two ore more hate cards within the first turn or two forcing you to dig and dig for removal that you might never be lucky enough to have.
2.) You hate playing against the hate game two. Sometimes it's annoying to watch an opponent start the game with leylines in play only to drop a cage on the play, and chase it with a crypt. By the numbers it shouldn't happen, but if it feels like this is every game to you, then a morphboard might be a good idea.
3.) The element of surprise. When your opponent sides in 8 pieces of graveyard hate and then mulligans to find it only to see you shrug and ignore it, that can be a great feeling. Thanks everyone.
Lets start with the main deck list that I'm currently testing around:
The list is a Dr-less version of dredge that is very similar to what Court Schuett played at Gencon. It seemed like the best place to start as the deck list has proven it's self stable and viable against a large field of players. Two small changes were made to incorporate main deck chain of vapor and 2 riftstone portal. The rifstone portals give access to a larger amount of mana for the deck in game 2, and chain of vapor is an out to someone running main deck lines. I question if vapor is the correct card for the task at hand, as there are many options that might play better in game two.
The idea is pretty simple. Drop out the highest priced cards, side in the dark depths combo, and assemble it. Urborg helps to even out the mana in the deck, and you can sometimes win games just by playing creatures and turning sideways after your opponent has mulliganed to hate.
The problem with this list is that it's hard to assemble against decks like use sphere effects, it's fairly inconsistent (particularly it's mana base), and bob can still hit for a lot as most of dredge's engine cards carry high casting costs. In the end the morph to dark times doesn't play consistently enough for my taste, but it has potential.
Again, post board we're looking to assemble a combo. Leyline/helm or painter/stone. Assembling either will win you games---but there in lies the problem. Two card Monty has always had the issue of starting the game with the wrong combo's in hand, and unlike a blue control shell trying to power out the combo's dredge doesn't have the drawing, tutors, counterspells, or backup plan to pull off the morph. It can work, but it's inconsistency often causes problems.
This version gets rid of the idea of assembling a combo, and looks to drop and efficient beat stick and smash face while the opponent tries to stabilize. Against yard hate (excluding R.I.P. and leylines) it can still make use of bridges, and yard size to grow out the goyf. Against some decks pridemage can hit the board, remove yard hate, and replace himself with zombies to set up for a big turn dredging out a win. This is probably the most effective morph. Though inconsistent land drops are still a problem.
I wont claim that any of these are perfect, or even favorable to the good old "pack 15 removal spells' option, but I think there is potential to the idea, and with the right maindeck, a morph board could bring a lot to the table for dredge.
Any ideas for additional board plans, main deck card changes, or changes to any of the board lists would be appreciated. I'm not the best deck builder in the world, but with the communities help I'd like to think this idea could be made viable in the format.
Read your primer and it sounds pretty solid. I'm going to proxy it up and see if it fits my play style, though I will almost certainly use ravenous traps in place of the crypt. The trap seems to be harder for Dredge to adjust to and play around, though the two cards have identical effects.
In most of the previous tournaments I've been in this year there have been a lot of shops players running around, and it's made me wonder: What deck is strong against shops? What could be built that would be strong against workshops and not just scoop to faster combo decks (such as dredge/oath/tinker-bot blue).
Please don't turn this into a 'workshops is awesome' or an 'I hate workshops thread'. What I'm looking for is constructive discussion on an established or even a rogue deck that might shake up my meta game a little.
Thank everyone who might help me brainstorm and discuss deck idea's.
After talking to some people who play in my area I was given the suggestion "Why don't you just cast your guys game 2", which doesn't really seem reasonable to me, particularly in my shops heavy match ups. All of this and some internet prowling have lead me to another similar question to my first, having now tested a few different deck lists focused specifically on fighting dredge hate.:
What about a morph side board to Dark Times for game two? I've read a little about it, and am looking at something like this:
The dread return package could be removed in favor of something that would better support the transformation package such as Nether ShadowThoughtseize or additional mana sources. The strategy has the potential to water down a deck that is boarding in graveyard hate to fight the dredge strategy.
My concerns are:
-What could be changed in the main board to ensure a solid game two after transformation without watering down game 1?
-Is the sideboard solid for game 2?
-Is mental misstep the right card to have in the main board when considering changing to dark times--particularly running on the assumption that game two will be on the draw if dredge brings us through a win game one?
-I know this won't improve the dredge game against shops per say, but would watering down their game two plans be enough to steal a game 2 here and there when they mulligan to yard hate? My worst loss was against 4 cage effects the last time I played, because of his turn one and two cages he managed to get some odd six turns where I puttered---would the transform board sputter as often as the traditional side board of fighting yard hate?
This is the forum where I got the best input for my last question and I'm hoping to get similar input again before I go back for another tournament. Thanks so much for your help:)
After play testing the list that I posted earlier today in several game 2's against shops and snap caster control I found that the morph board idea didn't work any better than just playing dredge with an anti-hate sideboard.
Unless someone has a great idea about how to make it function, I want to apologize for wasting anyone's time for reading the post---particularly to myself for writing it. It doesn't seem like the idea could pan out with any consistency.
Posts merged. In future, please used the edit button rather than double posting - BlackVise
Thanks everyone for your help so far. This is the list I've revised to since making my original post. I think everyone who said that playing fatesticher was too all in for the meta was very correct.
@Lordzosh "You should be winning at least 50-60%" I did actually win 50%, but I felt like those wins were due to luck (for example, 3 bazaars in my opening 7 cards) more than a viable deck list. I don't expect the battle against shops to be anything but uphill, but my losses felt pulverizing and the wins felt less like winning and more like sneaking by.
@protoaddict: In regards to what kind of shops I faced I faced: Forgemaster shops, Welder, and 2 very similar versions of MUD one with and one without main board smokestacks, though I never saw a smokestack in any of my matches.
@Numotflame96 I like your list. I'd never considered the addition of street wraith in vintage, but it would speed up a deck that is looking to bypass the normal shops sphere issues. I'll consider your list at length before I head to another tournament.
I'm open to all suggestions and any additional insight that you might have. I've only just started playing vintage (and by extension vintage dredge) and I do appreciate the insight.
I'm having a really specific problem in my meta---workshops are EVERYWHERE.
I'm new to vintage and decided to play dredge. I chose a deck list (Fatestitcher dredge) that I thought would do well in general and built my sideboard to face the normal array of graveyard hate. I knew going into the tournament that I would have an uphill game 2/3 that would be worse against shops decks. I knew all of that not just from prowling forums, but from play testing my deck against five different decks that I thought would make an appearance at the tournament, one of which was shops. I assumed that there would only be about 10-20% of the players at the tournament playing shops though, and that I might be able to sneak out a win if I had a good draw in spite of it being my hardest match.
When tournament night rolled around though, my first pairing was against a shops deck...so was my second, third, and fourth. Every match I played was against shops. Nearly all of them had wasteland to back up their graveyard hate, two of them main decked gaffdiggers cage, and all of them managed to resolve at least one sphere effect in game 2 and 3. I barely managed to go 2-2 for the night, with my last match being my worst as I faced down four gaffdiggers cages on the field backed by a sphere of resistance and a wasteland to my mana. Unable to hard cast my creatures, evoke my ingot chewer, or remove the hate in any way all I could do was pass the turn until my opponent beat me to death with his revoker.
I've gone back to testing a version of dredge similar to cagebreaker, but now I'm losing to faster decks, and my match up against shops is still pretty weak. My game 2/3 is stronger against decks bringing in hate, but it's still brutally hard to cast anything against shops.
Internet, you're my only hope. What can I do to stand a fighting chance against a workshops filled meta? Is there some sideboard option other than natures claim and ingot chewer that I'm missing? Is there a way to play dredge that I'm unaware of that would help me in my matches against shops?
Thank you to anyone reading this, and I look forward to any advice you might have.
TL: DR-How do I build dredge for a workshops heavy meta?
Another option would be running enlightened tutor, your combo, and a series of silver bullet enchantments/artifacts.
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Flooded Strand
8 CREATURES
3 Izzet Guildmage
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
23 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Drain
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Manamorphose
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Training Grounds
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
Ultimately as a vintage combo I doubt it would work. Three card combo's leave too much open for disruption. The mana cost (though reasonable) would suffer against sphere effects from shops, and it would be inconsistent at best against other decks.
In legacy the combo might stand a better chance, but the OP's deck list would need to reflect force of will, and a stronger mana base. Again it's hurt by being three cards. It sounds silly saying that 3 cards make playing it harder, but it's true. Having to find just one more card can mean the game against aggro decks in any format.
In modern the combo might work, though I'm not familiar with the tools that would be built into the deck around it. I'm fairly sure that a modern control build would be questionable though, since the format lacks all the 'free' counters.
In casual, or casual multi-player this combo wins. Once it's assembled you could use all that mana to play half your deck and then tendrils/empty the warrens out to win the game, even against 5 or 6 players.
Hopefully that might help you decide how and what to change your deck OP. If you do go the vintage route I can't wait to see what you put together
1.) You're a terrible dredge player and can't play around the hate.--Playing around the hate is what makes a dredge player good, but it's getting harder and harder game two, with opponents regularly resolving two ore more hate cards within the first turn or two forcing you to dig and dig for removal that you might never be lucky enough to have.
2.) You hate playing against the hate game two. Sometimes it's annoying to watch an opponent start the game with leylines in play only to drop a cage on the play, and chase it with a crypt. By the numbers it shouldn't happen, but if it feels like this is every game to you, then a morphboard might be a good idea.
3.) The element of surprise. When your opponent sides in 8 pieces of graveyard hate and then mulligans to find it only to see you shrug and ignore it, that can be a great feeling. Thanks everyone.
Lets start with the main deck list that I'm currently testing around:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
2 Petrified Field
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Riftstone Portal
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
2 chain of vapor
OTHER SPELLS
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Bridge from Below
The list is a Dr-less version of dredge that is very similar to what Court Schuett played at Gencon. It seemed like the best place to start as the deck list has proven it's self stable and viable against a large field of players. Two small changes were made to incorporate main deck chain of vapor and 2 riftstone portal. The rifstone portals give access to a larger amount of mana for the deck in game 2, and chain of vapor is an out to someone running main deck lines. I question if vapor is the correct card for the task at hand, as there are many options that might play better in game two.
Now the morphboard ideas:
Dredge to dark depth:
2 dark depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 dark confidant
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
The idea is pretty simple. Drop out the highest priced cards, side in the dark depths combo, and assemble it. Urborg helps to even out the mana in the deck, and you can sometimes win games just by playing creatures and turning sideways after your opponent has mulliganed to hate.
The problem with this list is that it's hard to assemble against decks like use sphere effects, it's fairly inconsistent (particularly it's mana base), and bob can still hit for a lot as most of dredge's engine cards carry high casting costs. In the end the morph to dark times doesn't play consistently enough for my taste, but it has potential.
The Two Card Monty board.
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 enlightened tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
Again, post board we're looking to assemble a combo. Leyline/helm or painter/stone. Assembling either will win you games---but there in lies the problem. Two card Monty has always had the issue of starting the game with the wrong combo's in hand, and unlike a blue control shell trying to power out the combo's dredge doesn't have the drawing, tutors, counterspells, or backup plan to pull off the morph. It can work, but it's inconsistency often causes problems.
Fish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Qasali Pridemage
This version gets rid of the idea of assembling a combo, and looks to drop and efficient beat stick and smash face while the opponent tries to stabilize. Against yard hate (excluding R.I.P. and leylines) it can still make use of bridges, and yard size to grow out the goyf. Against some decks pridemage can hit the board, remove yard hate, and replace himself with zombies to set up for a big turn dredging out a win. This is probably the most effective morph. Though inconsistent land drops are still a problem.
I wont claim that any of these are perfect, or even favorable to the good old "pack 15 removal spells' option, but I think there is potential to the idea, and with the right maindeck, a morph board could bring a lot to the table for dredge.
Any ideas for additional board plans, main deck card changes, or changes to any of the board lists would be appreciated. I'm not the best deck builder in the world, but with the communities help I'd like to think this idea could be made viable in the format.
Yes, that is in fact what I was referring to, and I thank you for posting the deck list. When I went back to find the primer I was unable to.
I'm considering something similar, but with a wasteland/strip mine package similar to what I've seen in legacy builds. Play testing will decide.
Thanks for pointing out the primer
Please don't turn this into a 'workshops is awesome' or an 'I hate workshops thread'. What I'm looking for is constructive discussion on an established or even a rogue deck that might shake up my meta game a little.
Thank everyone who might help me brainstorm and discuss deck idea's.
What about a morph side board to Dark Times for game two? I've read a little about it, and am looking at something like this:
4 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Darkblast Buy
2 Dread Return
4 Mental Misstep
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The dread return package could be removed in favor of something that would better support the transformation package such as Nether Shadow Thoughtseize or additional mana sources. The strategy has the potential to water down a deck that is boarding in graveyard hate to fight the dredge strategy.
My concerns are:
-What could be changed in the main board to ensure a solid game two after transformation without watering down game 1?
-Is the sideboard solid for game 2?
-Is mental misstep the right card to have in the main board when considering changing to dark times--particularly running on the assumption that game two will be on the draw if dredge brings us through a win game one?
-I know this won't improve the dredge game against shops per say, but would watering down their game two plans be enough to steal a game 2 here and there when they mulligan to yard hate? My worst loss was against 4 cage effects the last time I played, because of his turn one and two cages he managed to get some odd six turns where I puttered---would the transform board sputter as often as the traditional side board of fighting yard hate?
This is the forum where I got the best input for my last question and I'm hoping to get similar input again before I go back for another tournament. Thanks so much for your help:)
After play testing the list that I posted earlier today in several game 2's against shops and snap caster control I found that the morph board idea didn't work any better than just playing dredge with an anti-hate sideboard.
Unless someone has a great idea about how to make it function, I want to apologize for wasting anyone's time for reading the post---particularly to myself for writing it. It doesn't seem like the idea could pan out with any consistency.
Posts merged. In future, please used the edit button rather than double posting - BlackVise
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
Spells
4 cabal Therapy
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
Artifacts
4 Serum Powder
Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Mental Misstep
4 Nature's Claim
3 Petrified Field
@Lordzosh "You should be winning at least 50-60%" I did actually win 50%, but I felt like those wins were due to luck (for example, 3 bazaars in my opening 7 cards) more than a viable deck list. I don't expect the battle against shops to be anything but uphill, but my losses felt pulverizing and the wins felt less like winning and more like sneaking by.
@protoaddict: In regards to what kind of shops I faced I faced: Forgemaster shops, Welder, and 2 very similar versions of MUD one with and one without main board smokestacks, though I never saw a smokestack in any of my matches.
@Numotflame96 I like your list. I'd never considered the addition of street wraith in vintage, but it would speed up a deck that is looking to bypass the normal shops sphere issues. I'll consider your list at length before I head to another tournament.
I'm open to all suggestions and any additional insight that you might have. I've only just started playing vintage (and by extension vintage dredge) and I do appreciate the insight.
I'm new to vintage and decided to play dredge. I chose a deck list (Fatestitcher dredge) that I thought would do well in general and built my sideboard to face the normal array of graveyard hate. I knew going into the tournament that I would have an uphill game 2/3 that would be worse against shops decks. I knew all of that not just from prowling forums, but from play testing my deck against five different decks that I thought would make an appearance at the tournament, one of which was shops. I assumed that there would only be about 10-20% of the players at the tournament playing shops though, and that I might be able to sneak out a win if I had a good draw in spite of it being my hardest match.
When tournament night rolled around though, my first pairing was against a shops deck...so was my second, third, and fourth. Every match I played was against shops. Nearly all of them had wasteland to back up their graveyard hate, two of them main decked gaffdiggers cage, and all of them managed to resolve at least one sphere effect in game 2 and 3. I barely managed to go 2-2 for the night, with my last match being my worst as I faced down four gaffdiggers cages on the field backed by a sphere of resistance and a wasteland to my mana. Unable to hard cast my creatures, evoke my ingot chewer, or remove the hate in any way all I could do was pass the turn until my opponent beat me to death with his revoker.
I've gone back to testing a version of dredge similar to cagebreaker, but now I'm losing to faster decks, and my match up against shops is still pretty weak. My game 2/3 is stronger against decks bringing in hate, but it's still brutally hard to cast anything against shops.
Internet, you're my only hope. What can I do to stand a fighting chance against a workshops filled meta? Is there some sideboard option other than natures claim and ingot chewer that I'm missing? Is there a way to play dredge that I'm unaware of that would help me in my matches against shops?
Thank you to anyone reading this, and I look forward to any advice you might have.
TL: DR-How do I build dredge for a workshops heavy meta?