2019 Holiday Exchange!
 
A New and Exciting Beginning
 
The End of an Era
  • posted a message on Grixis Control post-rotation?
    Quote from blueX49er


    The issue with running more Aetherling than 1-2 is in the fact that a single resolved Aetherling SHOULD win you the game, and drawing out to that point is what the deck is capable of doing. Each slot past the first is one slot you don't get to use on another draw or counter or kill or anything else. He's a dead, dead, DEAD card in opening hand, waiting 6-7 turns minimum to cast him.

    Same goes to the Sphinx, but more so. He's taking away slots from all that goodness listed above AND Aetherling. At a certain, very shallow point, you find yourself with too many 'threats' in hand and not enough answers. For as long as 'ling is around, he's probably going to be the go-to man.

    Magma Jet's main value will probably come from the meta, mentioned earlier in the thread. If it revolves are x/3, even the scry won't make it worth playing. That said, it's a great starting point since it DOES do everything we want it to. For Now.

    Anger is again going to be meta-dependent, but I think it needs to be a real value somewhere in our 75, preferably in our 60.

    I hate to disagree, but I can't stand Curse. It feels very... cute, admittedly, but outside of using it with Jace or with Anger or with Magma Jet... key word in that, WITH something else, it's just that - cute, not effective. I could end up wrong on this one, but I just don't see it ever making the cut.

    Thoughtsieze... Nothing more needs to be said, we know it's good.

    Swan Song... everyone complains about BE, yet Swan Song isn't mentioned once? Counters gods that we have a harder time answering, counters the one card that everyone seems to be on debate about, stop Sphinx's and give a little safety net against Red Burn (While giving us a removal target against decks that run fewer creatures)... Just like Anger, it needs to be a real value somewhere in the 75, but the meta will call if it's a 1-of main or simply sideboard.

    Underworld Cerberus doesn't have a place here. Against aggro, you refill their hand FOR them. No. No no.

    Voyage is going to lend itself more to Tempo lists, though I could see it being a 1-2 of in the main board, especially as long as Voice is a thing (Or use it in response to a Fleecemane Lion Monstrous effect for a HUGE fun time. )

    Steam Augury... Good. God. This card is my vote for the whole reason for this deck to exist. It's going to hinge, HEAVILY, on your ability to make well positioned piles. SO many times is this card going to 3-for-1 and more often than I'd like to admit will I separate Aetherling into his own cute little pile on 7 mana, JUST to pressure the opponent into 4-for-1'ing to keep off of him. This card may not be able to chain into itself like Sphinx's, but I can promise every time you reveal an Augury off of another one, your opponent will be unhappy. 4 of in every list I'll ever build.

    I feel like you're undervaluing card draw and overvaluing scry (which is good, don't mistake, but it's better in the presence of strong draw) - Read needs to be a 2 of main deck, and I feel like I'd prefer 3 of personally. I always have loved SiB.

    Other cards I feel need a mention

    Ashiok - This card honestly feels like our go-to midrange smasher.

    And finally, rather than just discuss off the last post...

    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from Szogun
    I REALLY like the idea of using most powerful cards while staying black (cool flavor- use everything to win)
    Returning to decklist I'm afraid staying almost creatureless might be dangerous against resilient creatures- Zombies and Thragtusk (and undying in general but it isn't that bad matchup)
    Even if Zombies aren't big part of meta(I may be wrong)
    O-Ring eats Geralf's just nice, miracle Terminus after siding too, but generally you can't just T4 Mutilate if they have Geralf's on board, Rakdos Charm needs another 2 mana to exile them.
    I personally play Mostly Black with red splash and want to add white to it (O-ring).
    I use Gloom Surgeons, Vampire Nighthawks and Rakdos Keyrunes which help but it isn't easy matchup

    I see that Thragtusk can be SlaughterGame'd after siding if you Farseek, but Zombies are fast and resilient creatures are main issue in creatureless decks.
    Anyway it's speculation dependent on meta and can be arranged with little effort to fit best.
    Even if Rakdos Charm is cool, versatile card Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage might be option too sometimes.


    Thragtusk does pose a slight problem, but this deck has to handle it the same as any other deck. I've taken to mainboarding 1 Slaughter Games for the time being, just because the format is so cemented that a blind call by turn 4 is pretty easy.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Still looking for any input - especially on sideboard based on other meta environments.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from mtgimam
    I really like your deck; mine is actually similar but I am using blue over white. Have you play tested your deck yet? I'm curious how its working out. I don't know about 4 mutilates mainboard; seems like overkill. If you want to use mutilate, i'd recommend big lili. My deck has more creatures to swing in for damage and protection so I'm less dependent on planeswalkers.

    SNIP

    The deck is still in development, i have to work on the mana base and the SB more. I'm not sold on vraska but she is a win con in and of herself which is pretty strong. What do you guys think?


    Vraska is a Win-Condition in herself and a kill-all which can grow back up and do it again when her ultimate is likely to get answered (against blue-white when they can stock up their board wipes with nothing to throw them against)

    Against Aggro, without a larger creature base, this deck needs 4 board sweeps. Against control decks it can be boarded out, but this deck literally folds to almost half of the meta without those four mutilates main-board. I do understand the recommendation of big lili with Mutilate, but Farseek + a large swamp count makes mutilate hit for 3-4 by turn 3 - the only thing I've had Mutilate miss on was against the go-big black 'control' list running Farseek. Dropped Crypt Ghast turn 3, Griselbrand turn 4... =\ Kind of a fold moment anyway...
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from Cordam
    Hah sorry, I didn't know you were planning for bringing this through rotation.

    It's really not much like your list, I'm just saying this is a list I've been playing and it's been doing well.


    It does give us something else to work with though. More questions that can be answered -
    1) Liliana of the Dark Realms, is she really better than Veil?
    2) Your kill suite is made up of Mutilate like us, but with Huntsmaster, Stromkirk Noble and a decent set of zombies around, do you find Victim missing more than you'd like? I had tested it for a while against a range of decks and I just ended up missing the no-restrictions on Orzhov Charm too much. Do you find the same thing or is it a non-issue?
    3) No O-Ring? You prefer Dreadbore, for one less mana but missing out on artifacts/enchants - both sorcery speed. Is the lower cost with a black in it's cost easier?
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from Cordam
    I'm just gonna leave this saucy little number here:

    SNIP


    The only issue I have with this list here is that for your creature base - excluding Thragtusk - Most of it will be rotating out come October and even Thrag isn't a guaranteed reprint

    Save Liliana of the Veil (And any of the M13 that don't get a reprint - most of which I anticipate being reprinted save MAYBE Mutilate) this list is ready for rotation as it is. Admittedly, that is still six months out.

    Looking over it, this is actually almost nothing like the original list. It shares all of 11 cards in common...
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from Dfonse
    This deck is interesting. Firstly, I would say that making all of the lands produce Black be a good Idea. That just organizes it 12 Shocklands (Swamp and XXXXXX) 12 dragonskull isolated, woodland.

    Also, Lingering souls is to good to pass up in this list.


    EDIT - The deck may main black as it's color of choice, but it doesn't require nothing but black. After two black sources, the deck doesn't need more - swamps power Mutilate, but check lands don't help it.

    Lingering Souls actually does very little in this list - it dies to our own mutilates, it can do some attacking, but outside of blocking against aggro it's always been underwhelming.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    First post updated with Sideboard Analysis - It is more than open to criticism and advice.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from Valarin
    Any reason you are not running Merciless Eviction?


    The only thing to name in well over 80% of the games would be creature, and at that point it's too slow against aggro at 6 mana. Planeswalker ends up hurting us too bad

    Though against midrange, I could see using a 1-2 of in sideboard or possibly mainboard. Meta call - it'll be discussed when I get to the SB section a little later today.

    EDIT - After some more testing, it turned out to be one of the best answers to Esper Control that ran more than two different 'walkers.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from llyno
    9/22/2011: When you activate Chandra's last ability, you choose up to six target creatures and/or players. No damage is divided, and Chandra can't deal more than 6 damage to any one target. Chandra deals 6 damage to each target that is still legal when the ability resolves.

    I suppose you're right then. Still seems kind of grey but I think you're right.


    It is - it implies different targets, just like the old Hex couldn't simply target one creature six times.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from l1loneviet1l
    Any consideration for big liliana?
    Her +1 is almost a farseek, and every control deck always needs it's land drops. In this deck her -3 will most likely just be for killing things too big for Chandra to kill.


    Tried her for a while and I've bounced back and forth from a 1-of to where it stands now. I feel like it's a personal and meta-dependent call (if it's slow enough to let your turn 4 drop simply pseudo-farkseek instead of kill something) - She does work, it's just a question of how much.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Quote from llyno
    I can see what you're going for, but I just have a few questions:

    1) Doesn't Chandra ultimate just GG? If you go ultimate why wouldn't you just target the opponent 6 times? Or am I misreading that?

    2) What is your plan against aggro? I see that you run some good spot removal, but consistency of drawing those opening hand vs consistency of decks like Naya Blitz being able to kill you seems like it still favors blitz, did you have a SB in mind?

    3) It seems like if you're gonna go Walker heavy, wouldn't you want to run more wipes? Makes it easier to just keep the field clear while your walkers can run wild. Just trying to get more of a feel for your deck.

    Cheers!


    The sideboard would be very meta-dependent, though I'm working on a write-up for card choices there. The sideboard for the local meta here is far different than it would be elsewhere - aggro isn't rampant here, a few red sleigh decks here or there but Naya Blitz has yet to make an appearance - that's not to say this deck isn't being scrutinized against those decks, just that a sideboard plan for them is only in a testing phase, not a real flushed out one.

    That stated, the sideboard choices FOR Naya Blitz decks consist of Rolling Temblor and Terminus, with the possibility of maindecking copies of those if the locals here warranted it. As it stands, there are 6-2 drops and 5 3-drops for single-hit removal with a board wipe at 4, with the possibility of it on turn three with Farseek. Farseek+Mutilate opening isn't a guarantee, obviously, but any 2 drop + Mutilate is fairly common, leaving us with a single target removal into wipe (On the play, it comes out to a little more than 50% chance of having a Mutilate at least) - Not a wonderful odds, but turn 4 Mute tends to cut their steam and leave us with a even-to-poor game 1 against only the MOST aggressive aggro - anything less aggressive turns our odds into even-to-good area. Post board you can really critical mass on sweepers with Temblor and/or Terminus.

    More sweeps might help with letting the walkers do what they do best, but it would take away from other facets of the deck's design. Cutting out Orzhov Charm would leave us vulnerable to creatures Abrupt can't answer (Obzedat, Hellrider, Angels, etc...) and cutting Abrupt leaves us weak to O-Ring and D-Sphere which are picking up in use more and more. O-Ring for us is a great answer all, especially to opposing planeswalkers (which the deck is surprisingly vulnerable to) while all of our walkers are needed for the work in the deck. Post-Board, once you know which walker or set of removal won't be as effective, I fully agree that more board wipes help. Just in main, they make the deck less able to respond to threats.

    And Chandra's Ultimate, last I checked, has to designate separate targets. I WISH I could hit the same one 6 times... would make her playable in more decks, though I suppose it lets her fly under the radar in this one.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on 4 Color Black-Based Control
    Introduction
    So many good cards in such split colors, this deck has gone from being strictly Black, to Rakdos, to Dega and finally ended up in it's current form. Each tweak has added stability and strength. The goal of this deck is to lock down and control the field before sticking a threat, be it Gideon or Vraska or even Chandra (Doubled Rakdos' Return tends to hurt) to seal up the game.

    This deck drags out card advantage in every way imaginable, be it life gain/loss through deathrite, mana acceleration in farseek or strict advantage in card like Staff of Nin or Rakdos' Return.

    Rather than explaining more, here's the decklist



    Card Explanations

    Planeswalkers:
    Gideon - Ah, how I recall him being called broken when he was spoiled. His effects didn't change, but no one found a really powerful home for him to use and abuse his amazing abilities. Sure, he doesn't protect you and your other 'walkers like Jura used to, but that's not his point this time. This deck lacked real threats against control before he came along - Vraska's ultimate doesn't work quick enough and ended up being blown out by the Supreme Verdicts they hold without us tabling creatures. We can't just let them sit there and enjoy free-reign to do whatever they want without pressure.

    Chandra - Oh my, how many times she's been bashed and talked down about. She's not the greatest 'walker around, but she's a real workhorse in this deck. That -2 is backbreaking in conjunction with Rakdos' Return - Even a huge Sphinx's Revelation can't recover from that cast at 8, doubled. Even outside of RR, doubling Mutliate against ramp decks powering out big creatures fast, doubling Abrupt Decay turn 5 against aggro if she's ignored (which she is more often than I'd like to admit) or drawing their attention for a turn. Hell, even a doubled Farseek is often pretty wonderful. Her +1 clears out half of the durdles that aggro is using recently, kill spirits and keeps other 'walkers in checks. If she gets to ultimate, she's another board wipe for the deck, though it's her weakest ability... oddly enough.

    Lilianna of the Veil - If I need to explain this...

    Vraska the Unseen - She's a catchall answer and alt-win-con all in one with one nasty drawback should they feel the need to remove her outside of straight destruction. Burn won't finish her off without her -3'ing first, making her a 2-for-1, attacks have the obvious down-side. Straight removal is slim right now - Dreadbore, Bramblecrush (Never used), Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker (RARELY used), High Priest of Penance, Sylvan Primordial (Never Used) - Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere are both taken by Abrupt Decay.

    Spells:
    Abrupt Decay - Early answer for aggro, O-Ring and D-Sphere killer against control. It does falter against Mid-Range, but it still eats any lower-end threats (Opposing Lilianas, keyrunes, mana dorks, etc...)

    Orzhov Charm - Where Decay falters, the Charm picks up the slack. Against Mid-Range, you'll be looking at taking anywhere from 3 (Thragtusk) up to 5 or more, but Deathrite can easily eat those creatures away to regain some of the life lost. It can also sneak a Gideon out of Selesnya Charm's way. Against Aggro, it's obvious what this card can do - Kill off threats, resurrect Deathrite to continue feeding off their threats that you killed.

    Farseek - Excel and Fixing, what's not to love?

    Mutilate - Back-Based board wipe that indestructible and such can't avoid.

    Rakdos' Return - Control Killer, Win-Con, Hand Ripper. It's an amazing card.

    Other Permanents:
    Deathrite Shaman - My my, such an amazing workhorse in this shell. All your creature kill makes Aggro and Midrange yards a feeding ground, while control yards are turned against them. In rare circumstances, a Lilianna discarding a land from you or them on turn three with a Farseek the turn before makes for a turn 4 Staff of Nin. Beautiful things happen then. Speaking of...

    Staff of Nin - This was the first card this deck was built around. It's jumped from a miser copy up to 4, down to three, down to none, back to two... The deck loves this card and needs to see it consistently, but 4 is too many, clogging up the hand a lot of times. 3 Feels perfect - the first one draws you into more once you're able to cast them.

    Oblivion Ring - Answer-All in a very convenient package. It gets everything Decay and Charm miss.


    Sideboard
    While sideboarding is mostly a meta-dependent call, there are some strengths and weaknesses in this deck that need to be addressed through the board.

    Aggro - depending on how prevalent aggro is and how badly a reliable board wipe is needed, we tend to balance between 2-6 board wipes in side. This can range from Terminus and Planar Cleansing if hard wipes are a must, down to Rolling Temblor if hard-rush aggro is around more. Generally, this deck handles the bigger aggro decks decently pre-board so fewer slots need to be dedicated to true sweepers, though it does falter against decks that can vomit their hand. 2-3 Temblor is a comfortable number most of the time, alongside 1-2 Terminus if we truly feel midrange-y aggro decks are going to be rampant. Also, a fairly notable inclusion against hard red-based aggro lists (especially those running Hellrider and/or Lightning Mauler) is Blind Obedience - it literally turns Mauler into a 2/1 vanilla for 2 and Hellrider becomes a much more controllable threat while giving us life gain.

    Control - Blue/White control decks have a lot of powerful tools at their disposal between card draw and powerful tempo interactions. Sadly, their low creature count tends to leave us with bullets in hand and little to fire them at - Orzhov Charm still doubles as protection and resurrection while Decay still hits O-Rings and D-Spheres, but they have more inevitability than us as long as they counter / kill Vraska. To combat this, the sideboard is usually set up with 2 Slaughter Games to pick of pesky cards like Sphinx's, Entreat or Jace, Memory Adept - It also tends to board an additional 2 Decay to deal with excessive Rings and Spheres if the meta has decks running a full set of each.

    Reanimator / Human Combo - There are different ways to go about dealing with Reanimator decks in format. Slaughter Games picks apart Humanimator (Angel of Glory's Rise named and you're playing a very weak midrange deck) But often times, those two copies won't cut it. Rakdos Charm as a 2-of in side tends to help deal with this problem while still having the added bonus of hurting token decks and cutting out any problem artifacts that might come along (Runechanter's Pike comes to mind) - If the meta has a lot of Humanimator or other Reanimator style decks, boarding Purify the Grave or Cremate can give you another edge.

    Not Mentioned Above - 2 Merciless Eviction and 2 extra Rakdos's Return. Merciless gets boarded in against Esper Control and planewalkers get held back until they tap out and we can land a planeswalker sweep on them and begin landing our own. The last 2 RR get boarded in against almost any control deck.

    Match-up Analysis - Coming Soon
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Box Mapping Thread - GTC Gatecrash Edition
    Didn't properly record the guild pictures on the packs, so sadly that's out. Made in the US

    Left:
    Godless Shrine
    Biovisionary
    Ooze Flux
    Angelic Skirmisher
    Simic Manipulator (Orzhov Keyrune)
    Rubblebelt Raiders
    Angelic Skirmisher
    Biomass Mutation
    Gyre Sage (Island - 257)
    Alms Beast
    Realmwright
    Sylvan Primordial

    Middle:
    Sylvan Primordial (Treasury Thrull)
    Spark Trooper
    Immortal Servitude (Metropolis Sprite)
    Soul Ransom
    Crypt Ghast
    Duskmantle Seer
    Borborygmos Enraged
    Glaring Spotlight (Shielded Passage)
    Molten Primordial
    Watery Grave (Skarrg Goliath)
    Enter the Infinite
    Sepulchral Primordial (Ruination Wurm)

    Right:
    Breeding Pool
    Blind Obedience
    Foundry Champion
    Illusionist's Bracers
    Whispering Madness (Skinbrand Goblin)
    Fathom Mage (Forest - 274)
    Stomping Ground
    Luminate Primordial
    Merciless Eviction
    Consuming Aberration
    Mystic Genesis
    High Priest of Penance
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on Insectile Path - Cheating in Vorapede and Moldgraf Monstrosity
    Quote from zenneth
    how do you state this in the game anyway?

    "at the beginning of my upkeep, i activate keyrune and turn it into an insect, and descendant's path comes into effect..."

    or something like that?
    can someone clarify this?
    this is really interesting


    I'd think - "Beginning of my upkeep, Descendant's Path goes on the stack. In response, I activate my keyrune."
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.