Miracles arent about first card drawn in the turn, it's just the active player's draw.
Read text:
Take an extra turn after this one. Exile Temporal Mastery.
Miracle 1U (You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn.)
IF it was a draw, yeah..Miracle would trigger for them still, provided they had not already drawn a card at that point.
That's what I'd like more clarification on. To Miracle you must draw first and then reveal to trigger the miracle if it's the FIRST card this turn. Since the Seer's ability states both players REVEAL at the same time, it counts as two cards being revealed, not one or the first. Also, the miracle states "drawn," and similar to Bob's ability the Seer's is not a draw effect. It's a conundrum that I haven't read about anywhere else. So I'll appreciate all input on this.
Although some of the points you make are viable, there are some flaws in your argument. First off, you're trying to argue with people from three weeks ago, before the set even pre-released. Next, but probably least important, you point out that since miracles are sorceries they can't be used on your opponent's turn, but if miracle triggers, it allows you to cast it by ignoring card type timing restrictions. Then, you try to justify playing it with wasteland viper, a green card.... Even if you are playing BUG in the seemingly dimir deck you built, thundermaw will tap the seer so he can't block anyways.
Yea I didn't check the date when I replied and did afterwards and went "derp," but I wasn't exactly arguing, more explaining. Also, the miracle effect wouldn't trigger because they aren't drawing the card, it's revealed and placed in hand. That's the main difference #1. #2 both you and your opponent reveal cards at the same time and therefore still wouldn't trigger the miracle. For example, Dark Confidant's ability allows you to reveal a card, place it in hand, and then draw your card for the turn. The card revealed doesn't count as being drawn. Howling mine on the other hand allows you to draw an extra card during your turn. It's something I would like further clarification on.
The Wasteland Viper is a green card yes, which is fine if you're playing BUG, which is played. Also, you can't bloodrush when you block, which I didn't mention anyway, it's only for your attacking creatures. Thirdly, if you don't have a counter up for the Hellkite then yes, it will tap the Seer I understand that, but on a later turn, the bloodrush from the viper gives a serious advantage to the Seer. It's a combat trick only.
Can someone explain to me how duskmantle seer is a 15 dollar card? I know its mythic and costs 1 mana less, but the power level seems comparable to bloodthirst demon and that guy sees almost no play.
Think of it this way. The seer has the ability to finish games quickly if your opponent has no answer. His 4/4 body puts him out of range of Searing Spear and he's multicolored so no Ultimate Price. He dies to Mizzium, but that's a lot to use to kill only one creature. He's flying so he's harder to block, and comes down a turn earlier than Hellkite. Olivia Voldaren is still seeing regular play and she's a 3/3 Flyer who's abilities are viable only after turn 4-6. The seer is tougher, more powerful and he deals damage indirectly (yes to both see below to help with that)
Also you can utilize the Dimir Charm's 3rd ability with him. Before your upkeep cast Dimir Charm and choose the highest cmc card (Thragtusk for example) they have in their top 3. They lose the other 2. Then on your upkeep they lose that life (5 in this case). Then swing for 4 in the air, 9 total loss, not to mention anything else you're attacking with. Now, leave your mana up to counter whatever they drop (probably that Thragtusk at this point). Also, it can blank a top-decked miracle card. The card's are not "drawn" but "revealed" and placed in hand. It's also on your turn and since the Miracles are sorceries don't trigger regardless. So now their Terminus, Bonfire, etc must be hard cast. Another bonus is that you will know what card is going into their hand. That allows YOU the advantage of knowing what they could possibly cast.
He's a lot tougher and more versatile than people are giving him credit for. Also, look at utilizing low cost cards like Snapcaster Mage, Augur of Bolas, Deathrite Shaman, Wasteland Viper. They are cheap, effective cards that will allow you to utilize your mana more efficiently for counters and removal, and they will keep you from taking a lot of damage from Seer itself. Wasteland Viper's bloodrush mechanic (+1/+2) also pairs nicely with a 4/4 flyer if he becomes blocked by a Hellkite, your Seer lives (now a 5/6) and Hellkite dies. He's just a big threat no matter what.
Not that that means they won't off meaningful characters without even the dignity of an on-page/card death. Yes, I amstill bitter, what of it?
Could not agree more! Jaya was awesome and she got shafted. At least she got some mention in Purifying Fire.
And poor Slobad? What the heck happened to him anyway? And for that matter, Glissa's "conversion" was rather blandly handled as well (course her whole story is really depressing when you think about it).
they dont make any money from the secondary market, not sure what you're talking about. if you mean putting good cards in sets to sell packs...then yes, that's fun. this is way more maelstrom pulse than echoing truth...it should be rare.
I believe he's referring to the fact that WoTC is owned by Hasbro Toys. Also, no, WoTC and Hasbro make NO money from secondary sales i.e. singles and the like. That is pure for profit. They don't even make money from booster packs after rotation and their prices go up. Those prices are dictated by the distributers that have purchased a stock of boxes from WoTC and Hasbro for their original MSRP prices.
And yes, I agree that it should be rare. The CMC is aggressive, and with a possible 8 dual lands being available for UW this thing would see far too much play with O-Rings still in format. Rare is rare because its rare.
j/k I love ya WotC! thanks for my abrupt decay to deal with this and return my messengers and make my opponent lose more life
Haha, dude no worries, Zombies will still be viable, and in different shells now UB, RB, BUG, BW (Loyal Cathar flips for a zombie, allowing you to splash white and use your own o-rings) and of course where mine is already moving GB. This card doesn't scare me as much as it is other people.
They have to SACRIFICE a creature to tap him down. This is not optimal for most decks. You guys are treating it like it can't block at all.
Think of it this way, I'm running a Zombie deck (Which is running very popularly right now), you drop that thing on turn four. Turn 5 rolls round and you're ready to attack, that's fine because I'll just sac my gravecrawller, or a diregraf ghoul (which comes in tapped making him useless anyway) to tap him. Now you place your +1/+1 counter on him, but it does little good because he's just been tragic slipped, and my blood artist causes you to lose a life.
Or better yet, you drop the demon, and I simply cast Bone Splinters, sac my Gravecrawler and destroy the demon. Or I sac my undying Geralf's Messenger, you demon dies and you take 3 life.
In both scenarios I get the Gravecrawler back btw.
It's a decent card in limited as there's not a lot of what I described going on. However in constructed, as someone else mentioned above, he has the same issue as Vexing Devil. Both are good, until you realize that he's solely dependent upon your opponent's choices. It's never a good thing when you give your opponents a choice on what to do with your creatures/spells. Yet, in it's defense, a 4/4 for 6 does make your opponent go "Well...I have to deal with this somehow or I'm about to get face smashed." and THAT I DO like.
The thing is, though, that we know precisely what Sorin was doing from the moment he arrived on Zendikar to the moment he left. We know he never fought Nissa, and he never even met Sarkhan or Gideon. In fact, Sarkhan, Jace and Chandra had already left by the time Sorin arrived on Zendikar, and Gideon didn't show up until after Sorin had abandoned the plane like a sinking ship. Of all the planeswalkers we know about, only Nissa was on Zendikar at the same time as Sorin. And though they disliked each other and argued a lot, it never came to blows between them.
Meanwhile, we know next to nothing about what Sorin was doing on Innistrad. I mean, we know that his purpose on Innistrad was to find Avacyn, but we don't know what he was actually doing. For all we know, it could be that the reason Sorin never found Avacyn is that he had to spend all his time keeping Tibalt from punching him in the face.
Couldn't agree more. Honestly, I felt like they dropped the ball on Innistrad in terms of story. It had such a dark and evil set up and then BOOM everything's white, pure and Sorin's nowhere to be found...again. Just didn't do things justice, so maybe this Duel Deck is an apology of sorts? Or at least an explanation for his whereabouts.
Your argument is that control decks have better win ratios because they're harder to play?
The primary strength of control decks is that they get stronger when they sideboard instead of weaker.
No, not harder to play. Not what I meant by patience and all that. Try this:
An aggro deck has a game plan and works it's way through itself fast because its aggressive. However, those decks tend to fall apart if not ready for the late game. They tend to burn themselves out. That's why POD helped a lot as it allowed you to cycle through counter spells and the like and could haul out stronger threats for a lower mana cost.
I prefer mid-range decks with flexibility, but I also like aggro decks that have the answers available to them to keep them in the fight. The best way to play is to know your deck, know what answers to different match-ups you have available and play smoothly and consistently.
On the whole, that is what control decks are good at. They're good at being patient, seeing what their opponent has and answering their threats or taking them away all together, while producing a solid threat to mop up an opponents wrecked game plan. As others have stated, they frustrate other players and during Magic's history, control decks, or decks built with control i.e. Blue, tend to do better in format.
The idea is that aggro decks come in fast and wreak havoc. Those decks turn in to midrange and combo/ramp decks as players begin to figure out how to hold off the aggro. Next up is control at the end of the spectrum which exploits both the combo/ramps and aggro by playing a game of attrition. They stabilize the format until the next aggro player figures it out.
The last round of standard went this way.
UW Humans and Delver gave way to RG Aggro which led to RG Ramp, we saw a slight resurgence of BW Control (Sun Titan and Liliana) and UWb (Lingering Spirits) Control until Zombies rose up.
BU Zombies gave way to POD decks and Temp/Aggro Delver. However, Delver decks (all different kinds) kinda stagnated the meta for a while and just in time for Standard to rotate. And by stagnate I don't mean at your local shops. I'm talking GP and PTs. The meta is still fairly healthy at a local level thank goodness.
So with RtR dropping we'll see what happens, but control players are feeling a little left out, and I can understand why. Doesn't mean I like control, nor do I think they're better, but I'm following the trends, and my memory of bygone years.
Thank you lol my girlfriend and I were having this convo last night when everyone was talking about her dying to Geist. We both were like, "They all die because it doesn't specifically target them"
Also, yes to the Parallel lives. I'm suspecting we'll see that card get used more with the populate mechanic incoming.
MSRP is what the publisher sets the price to be. Most places don't even sell new games at that price. So if you wait and don't get a game on day 1. Instead waiting 30-90 days you know you'll be getting it at a discount. Magic cards don't work that way. There's no MSRP for singles just like there's no MSRP for out of print games. The hard cap I'm referring to is MSRP on new games. As long as that game is in print you know it's not going to climb higher than that price. Magic cards can climb as high as someone is willing to pay for that single even if it's still in print. OoP games are a completely different market. Their prices are generally stable like legacy cards unlike standard cards.
Fair enough, and thank you for elaborating, granted I think we both knew what MSRP meant haha. Although here in my area, prices for singles are set by Star City Games prices so in a way we do have a sort of MSRP here at the shops. But that's an isolated situation and I prefer ebaying cards anyway, but just something interesting to add to the convo.
And I do agree about buying pre-sells. Sometimes you can waste a ton of money on something overhyped and come away with nil. You're better off spending the $90-$100 on pre-ordering a box than anything else lol. Besides, opening packs is just fun.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was saying the first time.
That fixes the "at the same time" question then.
That's what I'd like more clarification on. To Miracle you must draw first and then reveal to trigger the miracle if it's the FIRST card this turn. Since the Seer's ability states both players REVEAL at the same time, it counts as two cards being revealed, not one or the first. Also, the miracle states "drawn," and similar to Bob's ability the Seer's is not a draw effect. It's a conundrum that I haven't read about anywhere else. So I'll appreciate all input on this.
Yea I didn't check the date when I replied and did afterwards and went "derp," but I wasn't exactly arguing, more explaining. Also, the miracle effect wouldn't trigger because they aren't drawing the card, it's revealed and placed in hand. That's the main difference #1. #2 both you and your opponent reveal cards at the same time and therefore still wouldn't trigger the miracle. For example, Dark Confidant's ability allows you to reveal a card, place it in hand, and then draw your card for the turn. The card revealed doesn't count as being drawn. Howling mine on the other hand allows you to draw an extra card during your turn. It's something I would like further clarification on.
The Wasteland Viper is a green card yes, which is fine if you're playing BUG, which is played. Also, you can't bloodrush when you block, which I didn't mention anyway, it's only for your attacking creatures. Thirdly, if you don't have a counter up for the Hellkite then yes, it will tap the Seer I understand that, but on a later turn, the bloodrush from the viper gives a serious advantage to the Seer. It's a combat trick only.
Think of it this way. The seer has the ability to finish games quickly if your opponent has no answer. His 4/4 body puts him out of range of Searing Spear and he's multicolored so no Ultimate Price. He dies to Mizzium, but that's a lot to use to kill only one creature. He's flying so he's harder to block, and comes down a turn earlier than Hellkite. Olivia Voldaren is still seeing regular play and she's a 3/3 Flyer who's abilities are viable only after turn 4-6. The seer is tougher, more powerful and he deals damage indirectly (yes to both see below to help with that)
Also you can utilize the Dimir Charm's 3rd ability with him. Before your upkeep cast Dimir Charm and choose the highest cmc card (Thragtusk for example) they have in their top 3. They lose the other 2. Then on your upkeep they lose that life (5 in this case). Then swing for 4 in the air, 9 total loss, not to mention anything else you're attacking with. Now, leave your mana up to counter whatever they drop (probably that Thragtusk at this point). Also, it can blank a top-decked miracle card. The card's are not "drawn" but "revealed" and placed in hand. It's also on your turn and since the Miracles are sorceries don't trigger regardless. So now their Terminus, Bonfire, etc must be hard cast. Another bonus is that you will know what card is going into their hand. That allows YOU the advantage of knowing what they could possibly cast.
He's a lot tougher and more versatile than people are giving him credit for. Also, look at utilizing low cost cards like Snapcaster Mage, Augur of Bolas, Deathrite Shaman, Wasteland Viper. They are cheap, effective cards that will allow you to utilize your mana more efficiently for counters and removal, and they will keep you from taking a lot of damage from Seer itself. Wasteland Viper's bloodrush mechanic (+1/+2) also pairs nicely with a 4/4 flyer if he becomes blocked by a Hellkite, your Seer lives (now a 5/6) and Hellkite dies. He's just a big threat no matter what.
Hope maybe that helps a bit more.
Could not agree more! Jaya was awesome and she got shafted. At least she got some mention in Purifying Fire.
And poor Slobad? What the heck happened to him anyway? And for that matter, Glissa's "conversion" was rather blandly handled as well (course her whole story is really depressing when you think about it).
I believe he's referring to the fact that WoTC is owned by Hasbro Toys. Also, no, WoTC and Hasbro make NO money from secondary sales i.e. singles and the like. That is pure for profit. They don't even make money from booster packs after rotation and their prices go up. Those prices are dictated by the distributers that have purchased a stock of boxes from WoTC and Hasbro for their original MSRP prices.
And yes, I agree that it should be rare. The CMC is aggressive, and with a possible 8 dual lands being available for UW this thing would see far too much play with O-Rings still in format. Rare is rare because its rare.
Haha, dude no worries, Zombies will still be viable, and in different shells now UB, RB, BUG, BW (Loyal Cathar flips for a zombie, allowing you to splash white and use your own o-rings) and of course where mine is already moving GB. This card doesn't scare me as much as it is other people.
It's a GREAT card though. Love it.
That's easy. Just think of it in terms of PW sir.
Gideon = Jock
Jace = Nerd
Elspeth = The Prom Queen
Liliana = The Artsy/Goth chick
and of course Judd Nelson appears simply because he's Judd Nelson, "Dude's f*ing harsh."
Think of it this way, I'm running a Zombie deck (Which is running very popularly right now), you drop that thing on turn four. Turn 5 rolls round and you're ready to attack, that's fine because I'll just sac my gravecrawller, or a diregraf ghoul (which comes in tapped making him useless anyway) to tap him. Now you place your +1/+1 counter on him, but it does little good because he's just been tragic slipped, and my blood artist causes you to lose a life.
Or better yet, you drop the demon, and I simply cast Bone Splinters, sac my Gravecrawler and destroy the demon. Or I sac my undying Geralf's Messenger, you demon dies and you take 3 life.
In both scenarios I get the Gravecrawler back btw.
It's a decent card in limited as there's not a lot of what I described going on. However in constructed, as someone else mentioned above, he has the same issue as Vexing Devil. Both are good, until you realize that he's solely dependent upon your opponent's choices. It's never a good thing when you give your opponents a choice on what to do with your creatures/spells. Yet, in it's defense, a 4/4 for 6 does make your opponent go "Well...I have to deal with this somehow or I'm about to get face smashed." and THAT I DO like.
...That's correct Robin! Now quickly, fetch me my Bat-Demon Repellent!
-cue theme-
And can I say...Khalia anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Couldn't agree more. Honestly, I felt like they dropped the ball on Innistrad in terms of story. It had such a dark and evil set up and then BOOM everything's white, pure and Sorin's nowhere to be found...again. Just didn't do things justice, so maybe this Duel Deck is an apology of sorts? Or at least an explanation for his whereabouts.
No, not harder to play. Not what I meant by patience and all that. Try this:
An aggro deck has a game plan and works it's way through itself fast because its aggressive. However, those decks tend to fall apart if not ready for the late game. They tend to burn themselves out. That's why POD helped a lot as it allowed you to cycle through counter spells and the like and could haul out stronger threats for a lower mana cost.
I prefer mid-range decks with flexibility, but I also like aggro decks that have the answers available to them to keep them in the fight. The best way to play is to know your deck, know what answers to different match-ups you have available and play smoothly and consistently.
On the whole, that is what control decks are good at. They're good at being patient, seeing what their opponent has and answering their threats or taking them away all together, while producing a solid threat to mop up an opponents wrecked game plan. As others have stated, they frustrate other players and during Magic's history, control decks, or decks built with control i.e. Blue, tend to do better in format.
The idea is that aggro decks come in fast and wreak havoc. Those decks turn in to midrange and combo/ramp decks as players begin to figure out how to hold off the aggro. Next up is control at the end of the spectrum which exploits both the combo/ramps and aggro by playing a game of attrition. They stabilize the format until the next aggro player figures it out.
The last round of standard went this way.
UW Humans and Delver gave way to RG Aggro which led to RG Ramp, we saw a slight resurgence of BW Control (Sun Titan and Liliana) and UWb (Lingering Spirits) Control until Zombies rose up.
BU Zombies gave way to POD decks and Temp/Aggro Delver. However, Delver decks (all different kinds) kinda stagnated the meta for a while and just in time for Standard to rotate. And by stagnate I don't mean at your local shops. I'm talking GP and PTs. The meta is still fairly healthy at a local level thank goodness.
So with RtR dropping we'll see what happens, but control players are feeling a little left out, and I can understand why. Doesn't mean I like control, nor do I think they're better, but I'm following the trends, and my memory of bygone years.
But don't take my word for it...
Zac Hill (former MTG R&D) sums it up better than I can.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/207
Thank you lol my girlfriend and I were having this convo last night when everyone was talking about her dying to Geist. We both were like, "They all die because it doesn't specifically target them"
Also, yes to the Parallel lives. I'm suspecting we'll see that card get used more with the populate mechanic incoming.
Fair enough, and thank you for elaborating, granted I think we both knew what MSRP meant haha. Although here in my area, prices for singles are set by Star City Games prices so in a way we do have a sort of MSRP here at the shops. But that's an isolated situation and I prefer ebaying cards anyway, but just something interesting to add to the convo.
And I do agree about buying pre-sells. Sometimes you can waste a ton of money on something overhyped and come away with nil. You're better off spending the $90-$100 on pre-ordering a box than anything else lol. Besides, opening packs is just fun.