This deck folds hard to control decks, this very much I know. It's not a problem, and it's never going to be, unless if something stupid gets printed.
Now, is it obnoxious to play against? Yep, it is.
As for what I have seen it purely depends on how exactly the Control deck is build and how many Needle effects the Whirl list plays.
Greetings,
Kathal
Speaking from (mild) experience, UW Control is an absolute beating, UR slightly better, and Jeskai a little better than that. Cryptic + Planeswalker is very good, especially once you drop all your removal for better counters/hate. The prison deck can be tuned to improve the match up, but unsurprisingly what hits control is rarely useful elsewhere.
I believe the only win con MB in the latest version is looping Ipnu Rivulet; post-board it can be something like Ghirapur Aether Grid, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and/or Sai.
As for what I mean by value town, I'm a fan of Saffi Eriksdottir alongside Renegade Rallier, so a line such as Vannifar, sacrifice Saffi on Rallier, sacrifice Rallier (triggering Saffi and then Rallier) to get Felidar Guardian, blink Rallier/Saheeli if its there.
Also out of curiosity is there a creature equivalent of Intruder Alarm?
Naturally can play Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Tarmogoyf, Lingering Souls, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace. Has disruption, clock, and the ever important White hate, and yet when is the last time Junk did anything?
Why is it not seeing any play?
Its clock isn't fast enough to meaningfully race the turn 3-4 decks, and it falls under the "draw my answer or lose" kind of deck. Plus it gets dumpstered by Titanshift and Tron, both very popular and good decks.
I think the first part is most critical. Every deck has bad match-ups, but Abzan's good ones aren't enough to make up for the bad ones. Because its best threat (Tarmogoyf) relies on the GY and w/o it you're walking a razor's edge of Scooze and Confidant beats. Makes it challenging to take advantage of the great hate cards.
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
We saw KCI win on camera through double Relic, including one of them on turn 1.
I didn't watch but I believe it. You need T1 Relic plus pressure because it's very weak grave hate. If I had to guess, the KCI player didn't cantrip until he was set up T4+ with Trawler; opponent has to keep up 1 mana in the meantime. Then KCI player starts carefully looping for value to force the crack or the value can pull him ahead.
The moral of the story is Relic is not great GY hate against any deck that can get incremental value out of their yard. It might buy you a few turns.
All good points, its the same with Phoenix. Interactive decks eat it up so the question becomes.
Why are interactive decks not seeing success?
Partially because the non-interactive decks are getting so good at attacking on multiple axes, or fighting through hate. I watched both the GP and SCG event today, so I don't remember which it was, but there was a game where KCI won handily through two Relics on the same turn. The deck cannot be stopped with 1-of GY wipes, and can work through even Stony with the recent adaptation of Sai.
There doesn't exist hate that is widely relevant enough, as well as strong enough, to allow interactive decks to reliably compete against enough of the huge field that is Modern. There are just too many non-interactive decks for the interactive decks to keep up with.
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
I think the challenge is "fair" decks are getting stretched too thin to cover all the different linear strategies between Dredge, Phoenix, KCI, and other aggro. Most answers are purely SB material and that usually means trying to win G2 and G3. We really need more Knight of Autumn and K-Command-type cards that aren't embarrassing to play maindeck.
A lot of disinformation about KCI in this thread. 4 in the top 8 is obviously a flashing neon warning sign, but let's be realistic with complaints.
(1) Complaining about play patterns is irrelevant to bannings by all previous standards.
(2) Holding up Matt Nass' GP record as evidence is extreme cherry picking. No different than using Caleb Scherer's record to complain.
(3) KCI doesn't rely on "rules abuse" to win. The trick being mentioned isn't even relevant in the vast, vast majority of games.
(4) Banning Scrap Trawler neuters the deck. May be necessary, but it's far more Splinter Twin than Summer Bloom.
The bigger statement, and I've seen a couple people touch on this, is in WHY we saw a resurgence in KCI. In a hyper linear format where decks aren't playing great interaction, it's the best. GBx and UWx are tough match-ups; Phoenix, Dredge, and whatever other non-interactive decks aren't. If KCI is lining up for a ban (and it looks like it is), that doesn't fix the meta spiral to linear decks.
Side note: I wouldn't be surprised if part of KCI's success at the GP is opponents' general unfamiliarity with the combo (judging by this thread). That wouldn't apply to the toppest of tables, but even your 75th percentile player doesn't seem to understand how to disrupt it well.
I think URx will have legs with a few Electrodominance as extra AF. Could still be very controlling -- I'd probably try almost a Blue Moon knock-off with cyclers for the cantrips and obviously the combo-ish finish. Hard to say if it will be competitive, but I'm excited by the possibilities.
@SpiderSpace, you still haunting these halls? If so, congrats on the Modern Challenge Top 4. Death and Staxes feels like a great meta call when GDS and Izzet Phoenix are two of the biggest decks.
@ktkenshinx: while I may not always agree with your arguments, I want to say thanks (yet again) for the way you lay out relevant data. Always much appreciated to see your comparisons; they lead to some of the best discussion on the forum.
Worth noting that almost no individual would accurately notice (in real time) what we could loosely call a 2% speed up in format. The heuristics of the human mind aren't geared towards tracking incremental changes on that level. So if players feel the format is speeding up, what qualitative factors are causing those feelings?
Are "non-games" more "non-gamey" these days? Are there more of, and there's certainly a better expression for this, the BGx vs Tron type match-ups where losses are quick avalanches and wins are long hardscrabble?
I'd imagine it's also the constant iterating meta. Each new set introduces cards that change the game. It's as if Street Fighter introduced a character every so often that allowed a different play option AND slightly changed all the preceding characters.
For 6 months I'm buying modern staples - I already have a decent collection and I wanted to play some competetive magic - someday - but now Wizards really confuses and scares me...
I also read about standard plus - a new extended format.
Now I don't know if I should go on with my modern collection or leave (a sinking ship?) it alone and start something else - like full time modern.
Modern is fine. AF just Tweeted that it's an important part of their plans going forward. MTGO might be an economic mess, but Modern remains the most popular and played format by all the metrics I've seen.
Re: KCI
Unlike most of the Modern alarm, this weekend is rapidly proving that KCI alarm is justified. If we get 2+ copies in the GP Portland T8, I'm switching to red flag ban mode. 1 copy would be an orange flag and 0 would diminish my worries until at least GP Oakland. Even then, however, the writing is mostly on the wall for KCI as far as I'm concerned. It's the best deck in Modern. If you aren't playing it you are willfully playing a worse deck OR you know your local metagame enough to know it's too hated.
I think the conversation is beginning to loop back on itself. Any guess why we might see a resurgence of KCI after its most recent hiatus? Decks like Izzet/Monored Phoenix and Dredge have resulted in a meta that chased off the (at least more) midrange and control decks that were best equipped to deal with it. You can worry about the (potential) resurgence of KCI, but it's a symptom not the cause.
Just to be clear, I don't think Dredge or Phoenix are the problem either. The issue is a rock/paper/scissor meta where all three options are linear aggro/combo decks. Hopefully the meta shakes itself clear of this.
KCI has been the best deck for a while. It just keeps cementing that position. All the other Modern-related alarms this last year have not panned out over any appreciable length of time. Heck, that's been true for the past 2 years. But the KCI issue continues to return. It continues to disproportionately perform and continues to have the highest MWP of any Modern deck.
Assuming the bolded sentence is true (and I'm hesitant to take that at face value), what's your explanation for KCI's several month disappearance especially at the top tables?
After finally breaking down and playing it, I can say KCI is a deck that has significant vulnerabilities much like Dredge. From a meta perspective, the unfortunate thing is that the decks best equipped to play those hate cards (Meddling Mage, RiP, Stony Silence, etc.) are pushed out by the swarm of linear aggro/combo. In my opinion, it dropped off when UW Control and Humans picked up enough to make it a poor choice in a more interactive meta. KCI popping back up is a symptom, not the disease.
I'm not saying the sky is falling, but a meta that only cycles from Dredge to Izzet Phoenix to KCI is more Knife-Sword-Scimitar than Paper-Rock-Scissors. It's a race to the bottom with speed.
Speaking from (mild) experience, UW Control is an absolute beating, UR slightly better, and Jeskai a little better than that. Cryptic + Planeswalker is very good, especially once you drop all your removal for better counters/hate. The prison deck can be tuned to improve the match up, but unsurprisingly what hits control is rarely useful elsewhere.
I believe the only win con MB in the latest version is looping Ipnu Rivulet; post-board it can be something like Ghirapur Aether Grid, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and/or Sai.
Village Bell-Ringer
I think the first part is most critical. Every deck has bad match-ups, but Abzan's good ones aren't enough to make up for the bad ones. Because its best threat (Tarmogoyf) relies on the GY and w/o it you're walking a razor's edge of Scooze and Confidant beats. Makes it challenging to take advantage of the great hate cards.
I didn't watch but I believe it. You need T1 Relic plus pressure because it's very weak grave hate. If I had to guess, the KCI player didn't cantrip until he was set up T4+ with Trawler; opponent has to keep up 1 mana in the meantime. Then KCI player starts carefully looping for value to force the crack or the value can pull him ahead.
The moral of the story is Relic is not great GY hate against any deck that can get incremental value out of their yard. It might buy you a few turns.
KCI (or Phoenix) doing that honestly shouldn't be too surprising. Relic isn't great GY hate unless it's T1 and you follow with a clock or additional hate (Sphere, RIP, Stony).
I think the challenge is "fair" decks are getting stretched too thin to cover all the different linear strategies between Dredge, Phoenix, KCI, and other aggro. Most answers are purely SB material and that usually means trying to win G2 and G3. We really need more Knight of Autumn and K-Command-type cards that aren't embarrassing to play maindeck.
(1) Complaining about play patterns is irrelevant to bannings by all previous standards.
(2) Holding up Matt Nass' GP record as evidence is extreme cherry picking. No different than using Caleb Scherer's record to complain.
(3) KCI doesn't rely on "rules abuse" to win. The trick being mentioned isn't even relevant in the vast, vast majority of games.
(4) Banning Scrap Trawler neuters the deck. May be necessary, but it's far more Splinter Twin than Summer Bloom.
The bigger statement, and I've seen a couple people touch on this, is in WHY we saw a resurgence in KCI. In a hyper linear format where decks aren't playing great interaction, it's the best. GBx and UWx are tough match-ups; Phoenix, Dredge, and whatever other non-interactive decks aren't. If KCI is lining up for a ban (and it looks like it is), that doesn't fix the meta spiral to linear decks.
Side note: I wouldn't be surprised if part of KCI's success at the GP is opponents' general unfamiliarity with the combo (judging by this thread). That wouldn't apply to the toppest of tables, but even your 75th percentile player doesn't seem to understand how to disrupt it well.
Worth noting that almost no individual would accurately notice (in real time) what we could loosely call a 2% speed up in format. The heuristics of the human mind aren't geared towards tracking incremental changes on that level. So if players feel the format is speeding up, what qualitative factors are causing those feelings?
Are "non-games" more "non-gamey" these days? Are there more of, and there's certainly a better expression for this, the BGx vs Tron type match-ups where losses are quick avalanches and wins are long hardscrabble?
Exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Thanks!
Assuming the bolded sentence is true (and I'm hesitant to take that at face value), what's your explanation for KCI's several month disappearance especially at the top tables?
After finally breaking down and playing it, I can say KCI is a deck that has significant vulnerabilities much like Dredge. From a meta perspective, the unfortunate thing is that the decks best equipped to play those hate cards (Meddling Mage, RiP, Stony Silence, etc.) are pushed out by the swarm of linear aggro/combo. In my opinion, it dropped off when UW Control and Humans picked up enough to make it a poor choice in a more interactive meta. KCI popping back up is a symptom, not the disease.
I'm not saying the sky is falling, but a meta that only cycles from Dredge to Izzet Phoenix to KCI is more Knife-Sword-Scimitar than Paper-Rock-Scissors. It's a race to the bottom with speed.