Here is what Im looking to play right now I changed only a few things like adding back in Charmbreaker Devil and a Carnival Hellsteed. I really I like Charmbreaker as a finisher and the recurring of one your removal spells hopefully Tragic Slip or Dreadbore. Carnival Hellsteed probably isnt that great but who knows. I dont think the list as is is really good yet. Its still missing some stuff and some things may be more sideboard option like Zealous Conscripts might not be so great maindeck. I do think we need a solid turn 3 play if we dont see Heartless. Im thinking Vampire Nighthawk
Yea, Nighthawk in the Archwing/Charmbreaker slot is a solid choice and maybe another one in sideboard. Good value, doesn't suffer from HS since he's there to block anyway. I will give it a try, good point on that.
About Zealous Conscripts, that card is way more deceitful than it seems. It has turned entire games for me based on haste alone, and depending on the context, it's even better than Hellkite. But yes, maybe changing back to 1-of and adding a second Nighthawk wouldn't hurt.
Quote from "HammerAndSickled" »
Why not green? Golgari guys, but most importantly 3-mana Thragtusks?
Because losing Olivia Voldaren, Geistflame (can't stress enough how important is to have this at early turns) and the hasty dudes (Thundermaw especifically) hurts a lot the control part of the deck in case we don't see Heartless. I don't think Wolfir/Thrag/Corpsejack/Slitherhead compensate for the loss of control, but I'd love to see a Golgari/Jund list of this though.
For one drops for this deck I have been playing with Vexing Devil and Goblin Arsonist. The Devil survives a couple of HS on board or serves as reasonable burn whereas the Arsonist is a chump blocker when played early and a Geist Flame when played once HS is on the table.
Goblin Arsonist! For some reason I thought he wasn't printed in M13 and was due to rotate, but that's a good option indeed.
Although it bothers me a little bit that if you have him at T1 but NOT HS at T2, you are putting yourself at risk of not getting the opponents' T1 Dork/Delver killed, and that's what Geistflame aims to do. Relying on just Tragic Slip for a single extra point of damage is worrisome I think (not to mention Geistflame's Flashback at late game if needed), but we are getting into a nice place here.
Vexing Devil suffers from the same issue imo. It is an amazing chunk of damage if it enters at T1, but mostly a dead card later on. If your opponent can't take the burn, you will stand with a 3/2 creature that is easily manageable considering a late game, a Geistflame+Flashback would put yourself closer to victory than a 3/2 french-vanilla creature imo.
Quote from windstrider »
I primarily run a U/B build for the Havengul Lich. I'm slowly coming to the realization that U/B Heartless may not be viable until the next set comes out with Dimir-oriented cards. Though with the Chromatic Lantern, the Lich shines at being able to steal creatures from other graveyards.
I am really disappointed that Solemn Simulacrum wasn't reprinted. The sad robot was a perfect card for Heartless builds.
I gave up on UB after seeing all that absurd Yard hate. Like, srsly, there are way too much hate against Snappy/Frites/Zombies. So, let's get an advantage on it by not playing yard recursion mechanics, yey! Maybe Dimir/Orzhov will change HS decks, though.
And yes, I think Emo Robot is the biggest loss ever for HS. But as the format as a whole is slowing down, we will almost certainly get to a point where ramping won't be necessary for at least the next 3 months. And tbh I thank Wizards on that one, I prefer so much to be playing a slower-paced game, as it generally opens up space for more strategies/decks instead of what we have seen in the last 2 years.
At my current iteration, I wouldn't dare playing Slumbering Dragon at Turn 1 since the mana must be open to respond mana Dorks/Delver/Noble, but I'd love to see a Jund-HS based on that idea.
So, with virtually all relevant cards already spoiled, I thought about giving this another shot, and pretty much seems a good deck overall to start this season (despite that new hybrid disenchant).
Took out almost all 6cmc creatures in order to incorporate more disruption/control and push the deck back to Midrange if HS gets busted. The only one left is Mikaeus which has immediate board effect (reverting HS) and synergizes pretty well with 18 of the 21 creatures. Also prevents Wrath/Bonfire effects once.
The sideboard includes GoST hate (SG/TtH), Zombie hate (Charm, Pillar), Control in general (Duress, Devil's Play) and Aggro (Mutilate, Charm as well).
Any thoughts on it now that the spoiler is fully spoiled?
Working on SB, with Distress/Duress, Mutilate, Pillar, etc.
This is more of a control approach, especially in the first couple of turns if HS fails to see the early game. I made a bit of playtesting, and pinging Delver, Pilgrim and Elf at turn 1 HURTS and it's easy. I am considering ramp as unnecessary if you manage to control the early game since after manadrop 4, HS is kind of not that necessary.
Also, I think red get the most value from beaters because of Haste/Hellrider. Dropping a turn 3 Hellkite gets at least you 4 damage on the same turn. Conscripts as well is golden to get that last piece of damage from your opponents' creatures. And the minicombo Desecration/Falkenrath is just lulz hahaha.
I like your approach on Nighthawk, but Stromkirk Noble suffers a lot if you don't begin the game and HS is at starting hand. It is essencially a dead card, prolly as all 1cmc creatures are.
Btw that's why I like the 8 1cmc removals. You can stop Ramp and Delver from doing their 1drop without losing creature value after HS enters play. Tbh, I think that is more paramount to the deck than having HS at starting hand. Geistflame is particularly good on that because its flashback is nothing to scoff at in the land of Shocklands. Sadly Pillar of Flame is a sorcery, so it's more of an Undying/Gravecrawler SB than anything.
Maybe also having those Dreadbores may help controlling when HS fail us. That's an elegant solution. But if we find space for Dreadbores, then we will prolly swap them for the Charm if it is at the same level as the others (and prolly it will be).
Meh. I knew I would get an infraction in my first thread, I was sure of it. The newcomer's bait
On topic, fixed the links -.-
@zemanjaski: The alternative I thought about not having HS was controlling the opponent table with cheap removals, as with a good manabase, HS tends to be unnecessary at mid-game. Of the fatties, Zealous Conscripts is just a surprise disruption and Charmbreaker Devils a way to recur Slip every turn, but those are the ones I feel most inclined to swap out. Not sure what would be a good 2-drop, since most lowcost creatures simply die when HS enters play.
EDIT: Won't edit this post for cohesive purposes, updated decklist (with sideboard) can be found on page 3.
How do we not have this thread yet?
I know that, in general, HS wasn't reliable in a phyrexian world of such low-mana costs. If you didn't draw it, you were dead. Plain and simple.
However, I was wondering how it would work post-rotation. Yes, the deck is losing some powerhouses (Praetors, Titans, Sad Robot, Myr Superion, etc), but I think we could work a place for him in RtR. I've approached the good ol' Black-Red.
Desecration Demon LINK
Chaos Imps LINK
Necropolis Regent LINK
As sideboard, I've got some ideas as Mutilate, Harvester of Souls, Tormod's, Distress, etc.
The point of it is early control even without HS (Geist-Slip Elf/Pilgrim/Delver), control even more with Olivia and Desecrated Demon (maybe with some damage from Aristocrat working as Blood Artist), to finally finish with Guild Imps and the new Vampire, as well as keeping card advantage on Bloodgift Demon to keep all those amazing 22 creatures running.
As a sidenote, most decks nowadays have at most 1 Enchantment SB (besides Oblivion Ring, that is), and past drop 4 or 5 losing HS isn't much of a constrain.
I did some playtesting and I was consistently able to ping Elves at EoT 1, as well as not missing land drops till turn 5 or so on most games.
I know that we still have important Rakdos cards to be spoiled like the man himself and the Charm, but what do you think? I'm believing on its viabilitity (and fun!)
And people mentioning heartless summoning with the demon are only proving the point of the people who say the card isn't good...
Disagreed. Heartless Summoning has proved the difference between dropping Titans on turn 6 or 4. Likewise, this creature goes from average control at 4cmc to nuts at 2cmc. Btw that was one of the first arguments against it, the tempo of having it unsummoned being 4cmc.
Turn 1 Geistflame Avacyn's Pilgrim or Delver
Turn 2 Heartless Summoning
Turn 3 Desecration Demon with a mana open for another flame or maybe Slip
Turn 4 Chaos Imps/Mikaeus/Olivia pinging.
There is also Archwing Dragon swinging for 3 every turn for 2 mana and even Thundermaw Hellkite at turn 3 4/4. If Desecration Demon eats a removal, he did his job amazingly as he isn't a beater. He is control.
Does it not make more sense to treat it like this:
Dude 2BB
Enchantment
At the beginning of each combat phase, an opponent may sacrifice a creature. If they don't, Dude becomes a 6/6 Demon with flying.
Ignoring that being an enchantment may have been better for removal, I think people are considering it more of a conditional creature than a conditional Void. This is a fine defensive card for MBC because it's a 6/6 flying blocker or Void (both of which can kill off most creatures turn 4) until you can clear their board with your removal, in which then it becomes an offense. Just because it's a 6/6 flyer doesn't mean the point of the card is offensive. If you're playing control, especially MBC, you need to draw the game out. This guy does that exactly.
Exactly. It is a control creature with a beating conditional. If, at any meta saccing a creature per turn won't hurt (DERP HERP GRAVEDIGGER Yes because we don't have tons of yard hate right now:rolleyes:), you still have global and one-sided wipes.
If one is facing tokens, maybe side it out. We don't know how the wipeboards will work themselves besides new Wrath and maybe the one-sided Devastation Tide.
I'm def making a BR Heartless Summoning with 4-ofs and taking it to FNM to check the results. I think this Demon and the Imps can totally compensate for the rotation of Inferno Titan and Wurmcoil. It's sad to lose Urabrask and Metamorph as well, but the new ones are amazing. Plus, Bloodgift still is in Standard.
Long time lurker and Magic player, first time poster. Had to because the amount of "dies to removal" arguments (especially for a card that dodges so many of them in Standard) in this thread is just obnoxious.
I would gladly run 4 of those and a couple of the newly-spoiled Imps into a Heartless Summoning shell. Yes, waste your removals on this pretty 4/4 BB. It's not like I have the 4cmc Flying Trample 6/5 Imps, nor Olivia Voldaren, nor Bloodgift Demons, among other amazing stuff.
This card is amazing exactly because it can force either a removal or just keep eating the opponent's creatures. Even if Heartless Summoned, it just needs a sacrifice to evade Mortars, Thunderbolt or own Mutilate. It keeps Selesnya from becoming overwhelming. Multiples of this on turn 4 or 5 is just nuts.
Bonfire and Entreat were each 4 bucks when first spoiled and look at them now. This obviously won't happen here as he isn't even Mythic Rare, but someone will make it work (IMHO it will be into Rakdos Summoning), and I will love to come back at this thread to see the faces of people comparing it to Hydra or Orgg.
Yea, Nighthawk in the Archwing/Charmbreaker slot is a solid choice and maybe another one in sideboard. Good value, doesn't suffer from HS since he's there to block anyway. I will give it a try, good point on that.
About Zealous Conscripts, that card is way more deceitful than it seems. It has turned entire games for me based on haste alone, and depending on the context, it's even better than Hellkite. But yes, maybe changing back to 1-of and adding a second Nighthawk wouldn't hurt.
Because losing Olivia Voldaren, Geistflame (can't stress enough how important is to have this at early turns) and the hasty dudes (Thundermaw especifically) hurts a lot the control part of the deck in case we don't see Heartless. I don't think Wolfir/Thrag/Corpsejack/Slitherhead compensate for the loss of control, but I'd love to see a Golgari/Jund list of this though.
Although it bothers me a little bit that if you have him at T1 but NOT HS at T2, you are putting yourself at risk of not getting the opponents' T1 Dork/Delver killed, and that's what Geistflame aims to do. Relying on just Tragic Slip for a single extra point of damage is worrisome I think (not to mention Geistflame's Flashback at late game if needed), but we are getting into a nice place here.
Vexing Devil suffers from the same issue imo. It is an amazing chunk of damage if it enters at T1, but mostly a dead card later on. If your opponent can't take the burn, you will stand with a 3/2 creature that is easily manageable considering a late game, a Geistflame+Flashback would put yourself closer to victory than a 3/2 french-vanilla creature imo.
I gave up on UB after seeing all that absurd Yard hate. Like, srsly, there are way too much hate against Snappy/Frites/Zombies. So, let's get an advantage on it by not playing yard recursion mechanics, yey! Maybe Dimir/Orzhov will change HS decks, though.
And yes, I think Emo Robot is the biggest loss ever for HS. But as the format as a whole is slowing down, we will almost certainly get to a point where ramping won't be necessary for at least the next 3 months. And tbh I thank Wizards on that one, I prefer so much to be playing a slower-paced game, as it generally opens up space for more strategies/decks instead of what we have seen in the last 2 years.
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Noble
4 Desecration Demon
1 Archwing Dragon
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Tragic Slip
4 Geistflame
3 Dreadbore/Searing Spear
Lands
9 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Devil's Play
2 Slaughter Games
2 Mutilate
2 Duress
2 Tribute to Hunger
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Pillar of Flame
Took out almost all 6cmc creatures in order to incorporate more disruption/control and push the deck back to Midrange if HS gets busted. The only one left is Mikaeus which has immediate board effect (reverting HS) and synergizes pretty well with 18 of the 21 creatures. Also prevents Wrath/Bonfire effects once.
The sideboard includes GoST hate (SG/TtH), Zombie hate (Charm, Pillar), Control in general (Duress, Devil's Play) and Aggro (Mutilate, Charm as well).
Any thoughts on it now that the spoiler is fully spoiled?
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Noble
4 Desecration Demon
1 Archwing Dragon
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Necropolis Regent
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Tragic Slip
4 Geistflame
3 Dreadbore
Lands
9 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
Working on SB, with Distress/Duress, Mutilate, Pillar, etc.
This is more of a control approach, especially in the first couple of turns if HS fails to see the early game. I made a bit of playtesting, and pinging Delver, Pilgrim and Elf at turn 1 HURTS and it's easy. I am considering ramp as unnecessary if you manage to control the early game since after manadrop 4, HS is kind of not that necessary.
Also, I think red get the most value from beaters because of Haste/Hellrider. Dropping a turn 3 Hellkite gets at least you 4 damage on the same turn. Conscripts as well is golden to get that last piece of damage from your opponents' creatures. And the minicombo Desecration/Falkenrath is just lulz hahaha.
Btw that's why I like the 8 1cmc removals. You can stop Ramp and Delver from doing their 1drop without losing creature value after HS enters play. Tbh, I think that is more paramount to the deck than having HS at starting hand. Geistflame is particularly good on that because its flashback is nothing to scoff at in the land of Shocklands. Sadly Pillar of Flame is a sorcery, so it's more of an Undying/Gravecrawler SB than anything.
Maybe also having those Dreadbores may help controlling when HS fail us. That's an elegant solution. But if we find space for Dreadbores, then we will prolly swap them for the Charm if it is at the same level as the others (and prolly it will be).
On topic, fixed the links -.-
@zemanjaski: The alternative I thought about not having HS was controlling the opponent table with cheap removals, as with a good manabase, HS tends to be unnecessary at mid-game. Of the fatties, Zealous Conscripts is just a surprise disruption and Charmbreaker Devils a way to recur Slip every turn, but those are the ones I feel most inclined to swap out. Not sure what would be a good 2-drop, since most lowcost creatures simply die when HS enters play.
How do we not have this thread yet?
I know that, in general, HS wasn't reliable in a phyrexian world of such low-mana costs. If you didn't draw it, you were dead. Plain and simple.
However, I was wondering how it would work post-rotation. Yes, the deck is losing some powerhouses (Praetors, Titans, Sad Robot, Myr Superion, etc), but I think we could work a place for him in RtR. I've approached the good ol' Black-Red.
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Noble
4 Desecration Demon
1 Archwing Dragon
4 Bloodgift Demon
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Charmbreaking Devils
2 Gang of Devils
2 Chaos Imps
1 Necropolis Regent
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Tragic Slip
4 Geistflame
Lands
9 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
Desecration Demon LINK
Chaos Imps LINK
Necropolis Regent LINK
As sideboard, I've got some ideas as Mutilate, Harvester of Souls, Tormod's, Distress, etc.
The point of it is early control even without HS (Geist-Slip Elf/Pilgrim/Delver), control even more with Olivia and Desecrated Demon (maybe with some damage from Aristocrat working as Blood Artist), to finally finish with Guild Imps and the new Vampire, as well as keeping card advantage on Bloodgift Demon to keep all those amazing 22 creatures running.
As a sidenote, most decks nowadays have at most 1 Enchantment SB (besides Oblivion Ring, that is), and past drop 4 or 5 losing HS isn't much of a constrain.
I did some playtesting and I was consistently able to ping Elves at EoT 1, as well as not missing land drops till turn 5 or so on most games.
I know that we still have important Rakdos cards to be spoiled like the man himself and the Charm, but what do you think? I'm believing on its viabilitity (and fun!)
Disagreed. Heartless Summoning has proved the difference between dropping Titans on turn 6 or 4. Likewise, this creature goes from average control at 4cmc to nuts at 2cmc. Btw that was one of the first arguments against it, the tempo of having it unsummoned being 4cmc.
Turn 1 Geistflame Avacyn's Pilgrim or Delver
Turn 2 Heartless Summoning
Turn 3 Desecration Demon with a mana open for another flame or maybe Slip
Turn 4 Chaos Imps/Mikaeus/Olivia pinging.
There is also Archwing Dragon swinging for 3 every turn for 2 mana and even Thundermaw Hellkite at turn 3 4/4. If Desecration Demon eats a removal, he did his job amazingly as he isn't a beater. He is control.
Exactly. It is a control creature with a beating conditional. If, at any meta saccing a creature per turn won't hurt (DERP HERP GRAVEDIGGER Yes because we don't have tons of yard hate right now:rolleyes:), you still have global and one-sided wipes.
If one is facing tokens, maybe side it out. We don't know how the wipeboards will work themselves besides new Wrath and maybe the one-sided Devastation Tide.
I'm def making a BR Heartless Summoning with 4-ofs and taking it to FNM to check the results. I think this Demon and the Imps can totally compensate for the rotation of Inferno Titan and Wurmcoil. It's sad to lose Urabrask and Metamorph as well, but the new ones are amazing. Plus, Bloodgift still is in Standard.
I would gladly run 4 of those and a couple of the newly-spoiled Imps into a Heartless Summoning shell. Yes, waste your removals on this pretty 4/4 BB. It's not like I have the 4cmc Flying Trample 6/5 Imps, nor Olivia Voldaren, nor Bloodgift Demons, among other amazing stuff.
This card is amazing exactly because it can force either a removal or just keep eating the opponent's creatures. Even if Heartless Summoned, it just needs a sacrifice to evade Mortars, Thunderbolt or own Mutilate. It keeps Selesnya from becoming overwhelming. Multiples of this on turn 4 or 5 is just nuts.
Bonfire and Entreat were each 4 bucks when first spoiled and look at them now. This obviously won't happen here as he isn't even Mythic Rare, but someone will make it work (IMHO it will be into Rakdos Summoning), and I will love to come back at this thread to see the faces of people comparing it to Hydra or Orgg.