(Post above: You can just run a slayers stronghold which would also cost 3, allow for an instant 14 damage swing with vigilance. Much more effective than using slots on brimstone)
Ive tested 8 variants of this deck now and im just finding it impossible to get a good match-up vs aggro. Mid-range is 50/50 and control mirror is 50/50. Where as if I play the aggro deck I beat control and go 50/50 against aggro and mid-range =/
Each version itself actually went through anywhere from 5-20 revisions based on the notes I take during matches. Priority is and always has been getting a good Zombie/Bant Mid-range match-up
Version 1: This deck had a terrible match-up against zombies. If you did not mull and get a pillar and a snap caster you were not living past turn 4 and nowhere near long enough to wipe anything. If the stars aligned, you got snap caster+pillar in hand and you got a lucky terminus you could enjoy the decks 23% win-rate vs zombies.
Version 2: Went all out on board wipes and spheres/rings in an attempt to bolster the removal elements. This lead to a very good mid-range match-up as bant does not have access to abrupt decay. However this led to an even worse zombies match-up as they decay all your rings and laugh to victory.
Version 3: Similar to Version 1 except by this point I realized that I wasn't pulling finishers enough. 2 angel of serenity stops you from running out of finishers (unless in the control mirror they both end up exiled). The late-game stabilizers (Sphinx/Thoughtflare) were removed for more early game cards. Still had a terrible 30% win-rate against zombies.
Version 4: The most promising version makes use of feeling of dread to help against zombies early game. This version does not run any permission which I regret. Feeling of Dread does not remove though but a few of them can lock the board from turns 2-5. However, the deck lacks finishers and had no late-game stability without Sphinx or Drogskul. This is also when I noticed that slayers stronghold is a boss and that I almost never use the desolate lighthouse.
Version 5: Much like version 4. Dissipate was re-added. More finishers added and 2 Verdict for a great 60% chance to draw a wipe by turn 4. Tamiyo, Pillar and Sphinx are missed but the early game is stronger. Ive only been testing this version a day but it has a 40% winrate against zombies. Still, I will not consider the deck playable until the winrate is 50% or higher. The next changes would be to somehow try and fit 3-4 Azorius charm back in, possibly by removing Verdict and a think twice. Even without sphinx if I can gain 10 using a charm with Gisela late, 14 if I have 12 mana and a slayers stronghold. The card just has so much utility I feel its a must have.
This is my long summary of 2 weeks testing. Hopefully this data can be used to get this deck from Tier 2 to Tier 1.
have you considered silverblade paladin or other first striker stuff against zombies? A well placed ash zealot is also helpful which you can side your snapcasters for.
I know snappy has more of a place in control builds, but I find that mine has found a place without him and is doing just fine.
you sir are wrong. Gisela has a HUGE immediate effect on the board. The fact that you take half damage and deal double from the get-go is very effective.
I think what he's getting at is that whilst yes, Gisela has that tremendous effect, it is dependant on her actually sticking around for damage to be delt.
Angel of Serenity's effects however tend to be more permanent in that even if she is instantly removed as soon as she's played, she either got you cards from your graveyard or bounced your opponent's things to their hand before she died, leaving an indisputable change to the board position. Only if she's countered right out did nothing happen, but the same goes for Gisela too.
Still, there may actaully be some use running something like brimstone volley if this is the case since you can cast that off the top of gisella right away as soon as she hit the field before instant removal, and assuming something died, is a whopping 10 damage to the face for your opponent.
Since we're on the topic of what seems to generally be consistent in all of our builds, with just a few differences to finishers and 2 drops, do you think that we could use that versatility to U/R/W's advantage? A completely interchangeable sideboard which converts the deck between tempo and control could throw our opponent's game plans if they try to side against us, and gives us choices in a mirror match or another hard control match.
On the subject of Gisela, I've personally found her to be more useful than serenity, but I personally think one of each is a non-issue. Gisela is particularly good around thundermaw hellkite and other things with haste and is bonkers in herself if she picks up haste from slayer's stronghold. I know it's 10 mana to do so, but in testing, getting to turn 10 isn't actually all that hard for a deck like this, especially if your opponent is bouncing thragtusks.
Thirdly, I'd like to get the community's thoughts on what is best suited for the two drop slot. Bant seems to favor elvish visionary, farseek and snapcaster best. In testing, snapcaster feels more like a 5 drop or more for recurring counters, but I don't really feel inclined to run more than 2 of him. Likewise with auger which is a definite 2 drop on a fairly solid early game body that may pick us up a sweeper. However, looking through the RTR spoiler, I was wondering if maybe Goblin Electromancers might also be a contender for this spot. Even a single one on the field provides us with a mana advantage since we average about 20 or so spells, of which he provides discounts to a majority. Turning think twice into an instant-speed divination, adding an extra angel to your entreat, turning feeling of dread into UW - tap 4 at instant speed, bringing down the cost of overload spells or another 1 damage to your bonfire can go a long way. He's essentially like r/u ramp that can provide 1 or more extra 'virtual' mana and makes syncopate into U - mana tithe.
This is my version of American control, based off combined Bant control and u/b control elements.
Card explanations:
Creatures:
Traft: an all-star in any deck running u/w. sure he's not as big a finisher as others, but he is still plenty dangerous on his own and must be answered. The angel is vraska's worst enemy even if she does +1 and that early six damage applies tremendous pressure. Even if they start gaining life later on, going from, say 5 to 10 is still better than 25 to 30. A 3 of because of legendary status
Gisela: an extremely good finisher. Creatures which would have traded normally, now fall to your damage instead. She strikes down sigarda which I also feel would be another finisher to contend with as well as angel of serenity (more on that later) she also turns non miracled bonfire into its miraculous equivalent. Also deals with obscenely large lifetotals. If she sticks around long enough to untap with, then you have probably won the game.
Restoration angel: Good in almost every situation. A surprise blocker when you need it and mixes well with Traft. Also can connect with thundermaw to pin down enemy fliers turn after turn. That includes other restoration angels and sigarda. 3 is the best number in testing.
Thundermaw Hellkite: As above, with Gisela swinging in for a guaranteed 10 damage for 5 isn't bad at all.
Angel of Serenity: At first, I honestly wasn't too impressed with her. However, in testing I realized her mythic status. She's a recursion engine in herself but at the same time, she can clear the board late game for a big swing. If someone should deal with her, you can also get back things which have died to allow you greater board pressure. Her only weakness is instant speed removal which messes up her triggers, however if you're only targeting your opponent's stuff, you can exile their things permanently.
Walkers:
Jace 4.0: Absolutely amazing. His card draw engine is tremendous and his +1 throws a pretty tremendous wrench into the aggro game plan. In testing, 2x seems to be the magic number. Digging through 3 cards back to back sometimes finds his replacement too. Especially gives a boost Vs liliana discard.
Tamiyo: An all-star in control. She taps and draws and if you should get her ultimate off, wins you the game.
Ajani: Provides a surprising amount of pressure by himself. May be hit by abrupt decay, however he will also provide traft with evasion or just make your guys even meatier. One off because he's not that good on an empty field post wipe. His ultimate can win late game after your opponent has expended all their removal.
Instants:
Dissipate: Since people are going to be playing an obscene amount of thragtusk in the current meta no matter what, I feel that games are going to be very drawn out indeed. Surprisingly though, not many people seem to be all that interested in running cavern of souls, and the best way to deal with tusk is to either counter it or not interact with it at all. This removes things out right and prevents recursion. 3x to ensure you have at least one in hand by turn 5 (sigarda, thragtusks etc)
Izzet Charm: Eats zombies and mana dorks all day, also provides faithless looting if you are REALLY desperate. another counter spell when you need it
Sphinx's Revelation: Cut 1 think twice to test this bad boy out, and I've gotta say, I'm glad I did. instant speed card draw with life gain is amazing, and can refill your hand very late game.
Cyclonic rift: Deals with plenty of permanents and can sweep the field late game for a decisive strike.
Blustersquall: I chose this to deal with the large amount of hexproofers that are sure to be coming our way, but also to get a 'sleep' effect on your opponent's end step, leaving mana free on your main phase if you wanted to set up an attack (like with thundermaw). Also deals with early stuff in the event you only have U on hand.
Think Twice: Gives us something to do with our mana early game and triggers miracles when you need them on your opponent's turn. Helps thin the deck.
Sorceries:
Bonfire: Any red player should be running this. It's super splashable and potentially game ending. Keep handy when Gisela is around to melt threats from a distance. Miracle at its finest
Supreme Verdict: Control just needs early game removal. Even if you blow an early traft, being in control of when the board is wiped is always helpful. you can bring your dead stuff back with angel of serenity anyway.
Terminus: Kills zombies outright as well as annoying indestructibles and regenerators (I'm looking at you loleth troll)
Entreat the Angels: Sure some people look at it as a late game finisher, but this card really turns games around no matter what. 2x 4/4 flying for 7 is still value and they can provide you with a lot of field advantage in the face of flying fatties.
Utility land:
Evolving Wilds: Thins the deck and gets you doubles when you need them
Cavern of souls: There's a lot of angels here, also guaranteed traft is good.
Slayers' Refuge: Haste and the extra damage are great. I just wish it gave first strike instead of vigilance, but oh well. Nuts with Gisela.
Side Board:
Zelous conscripts: Deals with walkers and enemy fatties. Can sometimes come out of nowhere to steal something important. Taking an enemy walker before ultimate is far too priceless.
Faith's shield: A counter to un-counterable things
Enchantment and Artifact removal: Mostly to deal with things like d-spheres and rancor. Never doubt a well timed erase
Jace: In a control match up he's still good. May replace him later though if graveyards are a problem
Rest in peace: Great graveyard hate, deals with zombies
Rootborn defenses: Synergizes with traft to make a permanent angel and lets him swing in recklessly to survive
Silver blade paladin: Increases early game pressure and synergizes with angels and traft a like. Deals with zombies once double strike is achieved. Nuts with Gisela.
Considering:
Snapcasters main board - this does run a lot of instants and sorceries
Hypersonic dragon - easier to cast and also has haste. instant speed board wipe is sort of a one time combo with it, but it can be advantageous if your opponent has overextended with tokens
Augur of bolas: I've read that people like this guy more than snapcasters as he can dig for an answer whilst avoiding graveyard hate. In my experiences though, he just tends to dig 3 lands off the top off my deck and then i'm mana screwed late game. My advice to anyone who wants to play him is to keep him late or only to play him when you NEED an answer.
Lone Revenant: Okay he's not the greatest. But given the amount of board wipe available, he can get you some significant card advantage with every swing. Again, wish he could fly. Synergises with Ajani.
yeah, it does have that choice among traft, paladin and ajani. All three do tend to work together with each other in any combination of three, but it does make the choice harder when you have all three in your hand. I guess I went that way because I liked having mana open for counters, slayer's stronghold or to overload/not overload things on top of playing a piece rather than tapping out completely.
Other options I was playing with include niv mizzet, dracogenius for the 6 drop slot and tamiyo or thundermaw for the 5 drop slot. Gisella is just sort of there to try and mark a finisher with any creatures I've got left on the field. double striking hellkite is pretty backbreaking
Hi there, first time poster, long time lurker here.
Just putting forward my R/U deck design for public scrutiny that I've been tossing around for some time. I feel that it's almost as solid as this sort of deck can get with the cards currently available in standard.
In testing it seems to work out pretty well in most cases. The aim is to naturally keep bouncing the field clean with devastation tide and snapcasters until you can mill them out consistently. Though it kind of feels a bit weird using Chandra to mindsculpt people, she's proven herself quite handy at doubling up mill spells and vaporsnags when the going gets rough. Jace is of course the star of the deck, swiftly milling away 10 each time and with devastation tide ready to go whenever, o-rings tend to prove more beneficial than ever as he can resume milling as soon as he returns to the field.
The biggest weaknesses I've found with this deck include early aggro decks and a lot of flying creatures which you can't safely chump with your snapcasters or augers. Fogbank has proven invaluable for that early defence, but I still think that there can be something that could be done to help keep the deck more consistent with its self defence until you can assemble all the pieces.
Reforge the soul tends to also be a big helper card in most cases as this deck runs out of fuel very quickly and double casting it off chandra can sometimes net you a few vaporsnags to banish away opponent creatures before they permanently dump their hand for a second one.
And in case all else fails, bonfire is there to clean up the pieces or just kill your opponent outright.
Would very much like to hear what you guys think! Tomatoes and suggestions away when you're ready!
I wish he had hexproof or something more, or at least a semi-circu ability to exile and prevent copies from being replayed
but hey, since when were the pack rares ever going to be 'that good'?
have you considered silverblade paladin or other first striker stuff against zombies? A well placed ash zealot is also helpful which you can side your snapcasters for.
I know snappy has more of a place in control builds, but I find that mine has found a place without him and is doing just fine.
I think what he's getting at is that whilst yes, Gisela has that tremendous effect, it is dependant on her actually sticking around for damage to be delt.
Angel of Serenity's effects however tend to be more permanent in that even if she is instantly removed as soon as she's played, she either got you cards from your graveyard or bounced your opponent's things to their hand before she died, leaving an indisputable change to the board position. Only if she's countered right out did nothing happen, but the same goes for Gisela too.
Still, there may actaully be some use running something like brimstone volley if this is the case since you can cast that off the top of gisella right away as soon as she hit the field before instant removal, and assuming something died, is a whopping 10 damage to the face for your opponent.
On the subject of Gisela, I've personally found her to be more useful than serenity, but I personally think one of each is a non-issue. Gisela is particularly good around thundermaw hellkite and other things with haste and is bonkers in herself if she picks up haste from slayer's stronghold. I know it's 10 mana to do so, but in testing, getting to turn 10 isn't actually all that hard for a deck like this, especially if your opponent is bouncing thragtusks.
Thirdly, I'd like to get the community's thoughts on what is best suited for the two drop slot. Bant seems to favor elvish visionary, farseek and snapcaster best. In testing, snapcaster feels more like a 5 drop or more for recurring counters, but I don't really feel inclined to run more than 2 of him. Likewise with auger which is a definite 2 drop on a fairly solid early game body that may pick us up a sweeper. However, looking through the RTR spoiler, I was wondering if maybe Goblin Electromancers might also be a contender for this spot. Even a single one on the field provides us with a mana advantage since we average about 20 or so spells, of which he provides discounts to a majority. Turning think twice into an instant-speed divination, adding an extra angel to your entreat, turning feeling of dread into UW - tap 4 at instant speed, bringing down the cost of overload spells or another 1 damage to your bonfire can go a long way. He's essentially like r/u ramp that can provide 1 or more extra 'virtual' mana and makes syncopate into U - mana tithe.
Let me know what you think.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/overheated-economy-urw-tempocontrol/
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Clifftop Retreat
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
2x Plains
1x Slayers' Stronghold
2x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery (8)
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Entreat the Angels
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Terminus
2x Blustersquall
2x Cyclonic Rift
3x Dissipate
2x Izzet Charm
1x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Think Twice
Creature (9)
1x Angel of Serenity
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
3x Restoration Angel
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
Planeswalker (5)
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Jace, Memory Adept
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Urgent Exorcism
1x Faith's Shield
2x Silverblade Paladin
1x Zealous Conscripts
2x Detention Sphere
2x Rest in Peace
2x Rootborn Defenses
1x Vandalblast
This is my version of American control, based off combined Bant control and u/b control elements.
Card explanations:
Creatures:
Traft: an all-star in any deck running u/w. sure he's not as big a finisher as others, but he is still plenty dangerous on his own and must be answered. The angel is vraska's worst enemy even if she does +1 and that early six damage applies tremendous pressure. Even if they start gaining life later on, going from, say 5 to 10 is still better than 25 to 30. A 3 of because of legendary status
Gisela: an extremely good finisher. Creatures which would have traded normally, now fall to your damage instead. She strikes down sigarda which I also feel would be another finisher to contend with as well as angel of serenity (more on that later) she also turns non miracled bonfire into its miraculous equivalent. Also deals with obscenely large lifetotals. If she sticks around long enough to untap with, then you have probably won the game.
Restoration angel: Good in almost every situation. A surprise blocker when you need it and mixes well with Traft. Also can connect with thundermaw to pin down enemy fliers turn after turn. That includes other restoration angels and sigarda. 3 is the best number in testing.
Thundermaw Hellkite: As above, with Gisela swinging in for a guaranteed 10 damage for 5 isn't bad at all.
Angel of Serenity: At first, I honestly wasn't too impressed with her. However, in testing I realized her mythic status. She's a recursion engine in herself but at the same time, she can clear the board late game for a big swing. If someone should deal with her, you can also get back things which have died to allow you greater board pressure. Her only weakness is instant speed removal which messes up her triggers, however if you're only targeting your opponent's stuff, you can exile their things permanently.
Walkers:
Jace 4.0: Absolutely amazing. His card draw engine is tremendous and his +1 throws a pretty tremendous wrench into the aggro game plan. In testing, 2x seems to be the magic number. Digging through 3 cards back to back sometimes finds his replacement too. Especially gives a boost Vs liliana discard.
Tamiyo: An all-star in control. She taps and draws and if you should get her ultimate off, wins you the game.
Ajani: Provides a surprising amount of pressure by himself. May be hit by abrupt decay, however he will also provide traft with evasion or just make your guys even meatier. One off because he's not that good on an empty field post wipe. His ultimate can win late game after your opponent has expended all their removal.
Instants:
Dissipate: Since people are going to be playing an obscene amount of thragtusk in the current meta no matter what, I feel that games are going to be very drawn out indeed. Surprisingly though, not many people seem to be all that interested in running cavern of souls, and the best way to deal with tusk is to either counter it or not interact with it at all. This removes things out right and prevents recursion. 3x to ensure you have at least one in hand by turn 5 (sigarda, thragtusks etc)
Izzet Charm: Eats zombies and mana dorks all day, also provides faithless looting if you are REALLY desperate. another counter spell when you need it
Sphinx's Revelation: Cut 1 think twice to test this bad boy out, and I've gotta say, I'm glad I did. instant speed card draw with life gain is amazing, and can refill your hand very late game.
Cyclonic rift: Deals with plenty of permanents and can sweep the field late game for a decisive strike.
Blustersquall: I chose this to deal with the large amount of hexproofers that are sure to be coming our way, but also to get a 'sleep' effect on your opponent's end step, leaving mana free on your main phase if you wanted to set up an attack (like with thundermaw). Also deals with early stuff in the event you only have U on hand.
Think Twice: Gives us something to do with our mana early game and triggers miracles when you need them on your opponent's turn. Helps thin the deck.
Sorceries:
Bonfire: Any red player should be running this. It's super splashable and potentially game ending. Keep handy when Gisela is around to melt threats from a distance. Miracle at its finest
Supreme Verdict: Control just needs early game removal. Even if you blow an early traft, being in control of when the board is wiped is always helpful. you can bring your dead stuff back with angel of serenity anyway.
Terminus: Kills zombies outright as well as annoying indestructibles and regenerators (I'm looking at you loleth troll)
Entreat the Angels: Sure some people look at it as a late game finisher, but this card really turns games around no matter what. 2x 4/4 flying for 7 is still value and they can provide you with a lot of field advantage in the face of flying fatties.
Utility land:
Evolving Wilds: Thins the deck and gets you doubles when you need them
Cavern of souls: There's a lot of angels here, also guaranteed traft is good.
Slayers' Refuge: Haste and the extra damage are great. I just wish it gave first strike instead of vigilance, but oh well. Nuts with Gisela.
Side Board:
Zelous conscripts: Deals with walkers and enemy fatties. Can sometimes come out of nowhere to steal something important. Taking an enemy walker before ultimate is far too priceless.
Faith's shield: A counter to un-counterable things
Enchantment and Artifact removal: Mostly to deal with things like d-spheres and rancor. Never doubt a well timed erase
Jace: In a control match up he's still good. May replace him later though if graveyards are a problem
Rest in peace: Great graveyard hate, deals with zombies
Rootborn defenses: Synergizes with traft to make a permanent angel and lets him swing in recklessly to survive
Silver blade paladin: Increases early game pressure and synergizes with angels and traft a like. Deals with zombies once double strike is achieved. Nuts with Gisela.
Considering:
Snapcasters main board - this does run a lot of instants and sorceries
Hypersonic dragon - easier to cast and also has haste. instant speed board wipe is sort of a one time combo with it, but it can be advantageous if your opponent has overextended with tokens
Augur of bolas: I've read that people like this guy more than snapcasters as he can dig for an answer whilst avoiding graveyard hate. In my experiences though, he just tends to dig 3 lands off the top off my deck and then i'm mana screwed late game. My advice to anyone who wants to play him is to keep him late or only to play him when you NEED an answer.
Lone Revenant: Okay he's not the greatest. But given the amount of board wipe available, he can get you some significant card advantage with every swing. Again, wish he could fly. Synergises with Ajani.
Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated
Other options I was playing with include niv mizzet, dracogenius for the 6 drop slot and tamiyo or thundermaw for the 5 drop slot. Gisella is just sort of there to try and mark a finisher with any creatures I've got left on the field. double striking hellkite is pretty backbreaking
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Clifftop Retreat
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Slayers' Stronghold
3x Steam Vents
3x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery (6)
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Entreat the Angels
2x Pillar of Flame
2x Blustersquall
3x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dissipate
2x Izzet Charm
3x Syncopate
3x Think Twice
Creature (12)
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
2x Goblin Electromancer
2x Restoration Angel
2x Silverblade Paladin
2x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker (4)
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Erase
1x Dissipate
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Rootborn Defenses
1x Faith's Shield
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Zealous Conscripts
2x Terminus
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Detention Sphere
A revised U/R/W tempo deck that aims to swing in big with traft in combination with silverblades, restoration angels and the like.
Goblin electromancers are around to make things cheaper and have fantastic synergy with X spells.
The sideboard is currently designed to try and transform it into a control deck by default until we know what the current meta is like.
Advice on anything would be most appreciated!
Just putting forward my R/U deck design for public scrutiny that I've been tossing around for some time. I feel that it's almost as solid as this sort of deck can get with the cards currently available in standard.
13x Island
4x Sulfur Falls
1x Cavern of Souls
Creatures x11
1x Talrand, Sky Summoner
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Augur of Bolas
2x Phantasmal Image
2x Fogbank
4x Vapor Snag
2x Desperate Ravings
4x Thought Scour
Sorceries x12
1x Increasing Confusion
3x Mind Sculpt
4x Devastation Tide
2x Reforge the Soul
2x Bonfire of the Damned
3x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Chandra, the Firebrand
In testing it seems to work out pretty well in most cases. The aim is to naturally keep bouncing the field clean with devastation tide and snapcasters until you can mill them out consistently. Though it kind of feels a bit weird using Chandra to mindsculpt people, she's proven herself quite handy at doubling up mill spells and vaporsnags when the going gets rough. Jace is of course the star of the deck, swiftly milling away 10 each time and with devastation tide ready to go whenever, o-rings tend to prove more beneficial than ever as he can resume milling as soon as he returns to the field.
The biggest weaknesses I've found with this deck include early aggro decks and a lot of flying creatures which you can't safely chump with your snapcasters or augers. Fogbank has proven invaluable for that early defence, but I still think that there can be something that could be done to help keep the deck more consistent with its self defence until you can assemble all the pieces.
Reforge the soul tends to also be a big helper card in most cases as this deck runs out of fuel very quickly and double casting it off chandra can sometimes net you a few vaporsnags to banish away opponent creatures before they permanently dump their hand for a second one.
And in case all else fails, bonfire is there to clean up the pieces or just kill your opponent outright.
Would very much like to hear what you guys think! Tomatoes and suggestions away when you're ready!