I've seen this comment posted in another thread here:
"Can I keep Maelstrom Wanderer in the Command Zone if I blink it with Deadeye Navigator's effect?
-You can return it to the command zone instead of exile, but the effect will still find it there and return it to the battlefield as normal."
Does this mean that the Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron Tooth and Nail combo doesn't actually work?
I decided to try control Zur minus mana rocks as OP suggests. This was largely a testing tourny, running a lot of new cards for me. Cards that performed well are:
Parallax Nexus, I run Mistveil Plains so recurring it every other turn locked out my opponents hand. Zur is able to handle many threats, but until adding this card their hand was not one of them. No longer.
Toxic Deluge, no surprise here, three mana wrath that when set for -3/-3 wipes their board and leave your Zur.
Darksteel Mutation, does basically the same thing that Prison Term does for one mana less (always a big deal) with some interesting differences. Cons are they have a still useful creature that can carry a sword left behind. Pros are numerous though, for starters Supreme Verdict and Wrath of God leave the dealt with creature on the board, which is where you want it to be, also it removes hexproof and shroud so if something where to go awry, and they attempt to remove your enchantment, Swords to Plowshares, Dismember, or any number of bounce effects can take care of it easily. It will need more testing but I'm liking it.
Cards that did not perform as well as I would have liked:
Unexpectedly Absent, it's seems like one would mostly be casting this for two and using it as a Griptide like effect, but for any nonland permanent. Sort of like a better Boomerang. There weren't too many gotcha moments where an opponent went to shuffle and I was like aHA!
Stifle, it seems like there would be more uses for this, but most of the time I found myself wanting a removal for whatever permanent was doing the triggering or activating that to stop it for one time.
The matchup that seemed to absolute worst was by far Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. I don't know why they ever printed this card. Opponent "flashed" (uncounterable) this general at my end step tapping down my land. Then Birthing Pod attack, untap his own land, then pod away Derevi to get Hokori, Dust Drinker locking me out for the rest of the game after he "flashes" Derevi back in the next turn for the same low low price.
I would really like to tune my deck for this matchup as the two best players in my local meta are running him. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
What do you think about Hobble over Prison Term? There are very few times that the shutting down of activated abilities matter and the card advantage is quite nice, especially when tutored.
Well, against a control deck, such as Wydwen, the Biting Gale, Zur, the Enchanter, or Griselbrand, if it goes late game you have already lost most likely. I would use your general to sneak in the last poison damage when they are tapped out by recurring a hasted infect creature like Skittles or Putefax maybe even put Blackcleave Goblin in there as well, or Ichor Rats for a guaranteed point of poison. Or of course proliferate your way to victory, recurring Viral Drake or Core Prowler.
There is no be all end all strategy to win, but I'm finding better and better cards for this deck every time I come back to this forum. Stonewood Invocation and Berserk are other amazing pump cards for this deck. Throw in a Worldly Tutor and a Survival of the Fittest to get the creatures you need.
The goal of the deck isn't for infect only, but using -1/-1 counters and proliferate to win the game as well. I feel like I'm missing out on something if I make it only about infect.
What is it about my deck that you feel doesn't work?
Well, I like to think you need a good game plan for a good competitive edh deck. With infect it's getting in there fast and low. Rafiq infect is a good deck to take a look at to see this game plan in action. If you play too many high casting cost spells it sort of defeats your game plan. Mimeoplasm is often used for graveyard recursion, but the colors are solid for an infect deck. Classic infect game plan is turn one or two infect creature, swing with a pump, then swing again with evasion and/or proliferate your way to victory.
Cards that take a long time to get online like Beastmaster Ascension or cards that may be dead draws because your opponent isn't poisoned yet such as Chained Throatseeker or if you have no creatures in play in Followed Footsteps can really set you back when you are facing a Zur or when a Jenara, Asura of War goodstuff is drawing heat every single fraking card.
You'll also need to take advantage of the fact that you are attacking your opponent with poison as a win condition, you don't need to worry about their life so cards like Invigorate and Nature's Claim can be quite potent.
Also, since all of your effective creature should have infect, you won't need creature with wither or equipment like Grafted Exoskeleton these will be redundant. Instead of relying on cards that get rid of a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it like Crumbling Ashes replace it with cheap targeted removal like Doomblade, Dismember, or even cheaper Snuff Out.
You could also go tempo and use blue bounce cards like a prebanned Edric deck would run, like Into the Roil and the newly printed Cyclonic Rift to get your infect creatures in there for the last hit you need.
You have alot of options, but you want to steer towards cheaper faster more effective cards. I play Zur as my general, and by the time you can cast something like Life's Finale or Mana Reflection I'll have done alot of bad things to you.
The deck I posted is just off the top of my head effective cards for an infect deck, with some fine tuning it could start to get devastating. You could even throw in some graveyard tutoring with Entomb and Buried Alive throw a Phyrexian Dreadnought and Blighted Agent for a 12/12 unblockable infect Mimeoplasm. Possibilities go on and on, you'll have decide how you want to play it.
Good lord, Imma try to tackle this as you say, travesty. I'm guessing your goal is to win through poisoning your opponent as fast as possible, using your general for colors and perhaps a finisher.
Posting this decklist just to get the discussion started. I may alter it later.
I checked out the site, the videos don't seem to match up with the tourny results. I watched Zur vs. Edric and Zur got stomped out every time, but in the list it says he won? Am I not reading something correctly?
"Can I keep Maelstrom Wanderer in the Command Zone if I blink it with Deadeye Navigator's effect?
-You can return it to the command zone instead of exile, but the effect will still find it there and return it to the battlefield as normal."
Does this mean that the Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron Tooth and Nail combo doesn't actually work?
I decided to try control Zur minus mana rocks as OP suggests. This was largely a testing tourny, running a lot of new cards for me. Cards that performed well are:
Parallax Nexus, I run Mistveil Plains so recurring it every other turn locked out my opponents hand. Zur is able to handle many threats, but until adding this card their hand was not one of them. No longer.
Toxic Deluge, no surprise here, three mana wrath that when set for -3/-3 wipes their board and leave your Zur.
Darksteel Mutation, does basically the same thing that Prison Term does for one mana less (always a big deal) with some interesting differences. Cons are they have a still useful creature that can carry a sword left behind. Pros are numerous though, for starters Supreme Verdict and Wrath of God leave the dealt with creature on the board, which is where you want it to be, also it removes hexproof and shroud so if something where to go awry, and they attempt to remove your enchantment, Swords to Plowshares, Dismember, or any number of bounce effects can take care of it easily. It will need more testing but I'm liking it.
Cards that did not perform as well as I would have liked:
Unexpectedly Absent, it's seems like one would mostly be casting this for two and using it as a Griptide like effect, but for any nonland permanent. Sort of like a better Boomerang. There weren't too many gotcha moments where an opponent went to shuffle and I was like aHA!
Stifle, it seems like there would be more uses for this, but most of the time I found myself wanting a removal for whatever permanent was doing the triggering or activating that to stop it for one time.
The matchup that seemed to absolute worst was by far Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. I don't know why they ever printed this card. Opponent "flashed" (uncounterable) this general at my end step tapping down my land. Then Birthing Pod attack, untap his own land, then pod away Derevi to get Hokori, Dust Drinker locking me out for the rest of the game after he "flashes" Derevi back in the next turn for the same low low price.
I would really like to tune my deck for this matchup as the two best players in my local meta are running him. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
There is no be all end all strategy to win, but I'm finding better and better cards for this deck every time I come back to this forum. Stonewood Invocation and Berserk are other amazing pump cards for this deck. Throw in a Worldly Tutor and a Survival of the Fittest to get the creatures you need.
I'll update the deck as time goes on if you like.
Well, I like to think you need a good game plan for a good competitive edh deck. With infect it's getting in there fast and low. Rafiq infect is a good deck to take a look at to see this game plan in action. If you play too many high casting cost spells it sort of defeats your game plan. Mimeoplasm is often used for graveyard recursion, but the colors are solid for an infect deck. Classic infect game plan is turn one or two infect creature, swing with a pump, then swing again with evasion and/or proliferate your way to victory.
Cards that take a long time to get online like Beastmaster Ascension or cards that may be dead draws because your opponent isn't poisoned yet such as Chained Throatseeker or if you have no creatures in play in Followed Footsteps can really set you back when you are facing a Zur or when a Jenara, Asura of War goodstuff is drawing heat every single fraking card.
You'll also need to take advantage of the fact that you are attacking your opponent with poison as a win condition, you don't need to worry about their life so cards like Invigorate and Nature's Claim can be quite potent.
Also, since all of your effective creature should have infect, you won't need creature with wither or equipment like Grafted Exoskeleton these will be redundant. Instead of relying on cards that get rid of a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it like Crumbling Ashes replace it with cheap targeted removal like Doomblade, Dismember, or even cheaper Snuff Out.
You could also go tempo and use blue bounce cards like a prebanned Edric deck would run, like Into the Roil and the newly printed Cyclonic Rift to get your infect creatures in there for the last hit you need.
You have alot of options, but you want to steer towards cheaper faster more effective cards. I play Zur as my general, and by the time you can cast something like Life's Finale or Mana Reflection I'll have done alot of bad things to you.
The deck I posted is just off the top of my head effective cards for an infect deck, with some fine tuning it could start to get devastating. You could even throw in some graveyard tutoring with Entomb and Buried Alive throw a Phyrexian Dreadnought and Blighted Agent for a 12/12 unblockable infect Mimeoplasm. Possibilities go on and on, you'll have decide how you want to play it.
Posting this decklist just to get the discussion started. I may alter it later.
1x The Mimeoplasm
Infect Creatures (21)
1x Blight Mamba
1x Blighted Agent
1x Core Prowler
1x Cystbearer
1x Flesh-Eater Imp
1x Glistener Elf
1x Hand of the Praetors
1x Ichorclaw Myr
1x Ichor Rats
1x Necropede
1x Phyrexian Crusader
1x Phyrexian Hydra
1x Phyrexian Vatmother
1x Plague Myr
1x Plague Stinger
1x Putrefax
1x Rot Wolf
1x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
1x Viral Drake
1x Viridian Corrupter
1x Whispering Specter
Utility Creatures (3)
1x Dark Confidant
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Phantasmal Image
Instants (20)
1x Giant Growth
1x Titanic Growth
1x Mutagenic Growth
1x Invigorate
1x Groundswell
1x Berserk
1x Might of Old Krosa
1x Vines of Vastwood
1x Predator's Strike
1x Stonewood Invocation
1x Grim Affliction
1x Dismember
1x Putrefy
1x Virulent Wound
1x Snuff Out
1x Nature's Claim
1x Mana Drain
1x Counterspell
1x Mana Leak
Planeswalker (3)
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Vraska the Unseen
Enchantment (6)
1x Rancor
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Wild Defiance
1x Sylvian Library
1x Necropotence
1x Survival of the Fittest
Artifact (6)
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Contagion Engine
1x Expedition Map
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
Sorcery (4)
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Damnation
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Tezzeret's Gambit
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Bayou
1x Breeding Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Grove
10x Forest
1x Inkmoth Nexus
5x Island
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
5x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Twilight Mire
1x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
Proceed.
Griptide
Crop Rotation, Sylvan Scrying, Demonic Tutor technically.