I get where Manfred is coming from. I miss the grindy aspect of the deck. If you don't seal the deal ASAP with the RG version you just die. At least the amalgams, ghasts, and crawlers can grind out a win.
Just wanted to pop in and mention my Big Game Hunter use. Before this new RG version I replaced the mainboard Tasigur with a single BGH. It was awesome. Killed goyfs, eldrazi, gurmags, and tasigurs out of nowhere. I really liked running the single copy. So many fat creatures running around it was only boarded out against a few decks.
I like the talk of a BR version. Im not really a deck builder so I wouldnt know where to start. But ill test the crap out of a list on xmage.
So I honestly feel that that R/G Vengevine list from the SCG Open this weekend is the direction this deck wants to go. At least with how the meta is right now. Here are my thoughts on why.
Which list seems like a better group of creatures for a hyper-aggressive deck? List B 100%! List B has more creatures that cost nothing, meaning it's easier to chain creatures and recur Vengevine. Not to mention that half of the listed creatures have Haste, meaning you are able to most swiftly pressure your opponent's life total. And the Haste factor also adds the bonus of a lot of draws also being able to just kill your opponent if they've used a sweeper or some other type of effect. Wrath of God but your opponent is at 2? Goblin Guide for the win baby!
Compare this with List A, which honestly has an extremely large setup cost. You don't cast [card}Bloodghast[/card], so those will never trigger Vengevine, and the Gravecrawler + Lotleth Troll recursive combo is BBG in casting cost, compared to a measly RR or RG in the other list. Then there is the fact that outside of Vengevine your only Haste creature is Bloodghast, but only when your opponent is below 10 life, this creature suite is a lot worse than the other one. I mean sure, Bloodghast having Haste at 10 or less life, definitely makes it meet the same benefit as the other list where they can help you close out the game with your opponent at a low life total. But because you need to get them to 10 or lower first, they aren't nearly as good at getting you that early aggressive start.
2) The Spells
Next is the fact that the RG List just has better support to finish off the opponent. The traditional lists we have been trying to run have been extremely spell light, usually only running Faithless Looting and Cathartic Reunion. This is because by trying to jam so many graveyard matters creatures into the deck(Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Prized Amalgam) we essentially put in a lot of creatures we aren't casting to recur Vengevine. As such we need to devote more deck slots to having creatures we can actually cast. Since the RG list has a very minimalist approach to the graveyard by using Vengevine as the only recursive threat the deck is able to put more slots that help close the game like Temur Battle Rage, Become Immense, and Lightning Bolt. These closer cards are extremely important because they let the deck finish a game before the opponent can get their footing and stabilize.
3) The Sideboard
While the traditional list being BRG definitely allows for more sideboard options, restricting yourself to just RG gives you access to some single better sidebaord cards. A perfect example of this is Blood Moon. There is no way the Jund variant could run Moon in the sideboard, as it would hurt itself as much if not more than the opponent. However as a deck that is mainly red, and just very lightly splashing green, Blood Moon is an amazing sideboard card against the unfair decks like Tron.
Then there is the fact that the deck can essentially transform into a burn deck. Sideboard out the Delve cards, bring in another Goblin Guide, a Grim Lavamancer, some match ups specific burn sideboard cards, bam! Suddenly your opponent's anti-graveyard sideboard plan does literally nothing. They literally just made their deck worse against you by putting in dead cards. Again this is possible because of how small of a graveyard strategy the deck has running.
These are my thoughts after running about 5 1v1 matches on MTGO with the RG Vengevine list. I ended up going 4-1 with my only loss being to an Elf deck with an insane opener for Game 3. Because of what I mentioned above the deck feels so much more consistent, and so much more powerful than what we've been trying so far.
I didnt even think about transforming into a burn deck to combat grave hate. A couple of things I dont like about the board is the leylines and domri. Just because not being able to cast the leylines and I have no idea what match I would want Rade in.
So there has been alot of debate and speculation aboit what deserve a ban more street wraith or deaths shadow.. i have always believed street wraith was the reason grixis shadow has been seen to be so good.
This new hollow vine deck will be the determinant in the debate and IMO proves Street wraith is the broken card.
However, simian spirit guide exists and it could possibly be added into this deck if wraith isnt banned and maybe even sub in for it if in fact jt is.
I do see wraith getting the hammwr but this isnt the right page for this so i digress.
Ban? Dude, grixis deaths shadow isn't a format warping oppressive deck. It's interactive, beatable, and not even winning tons of major events. Stop with the banning talk. Modern needs to just be left alone for now.
I just jumped on xmage to try the deck and first opponent is using it too, lol
Manfred, I used your list a couple of times yesterday. I was able to recure the amalgams a few times off Tasigur. That was his only high point. So far Ive noticed that if our opponent can handle a Hollow One they can handle a Tasigur. I probably just dont like the guy.
I played that weird white enchantment deck a few times as well. We just win by pushing through damage then pulsing the phyrexian unlife. Path will be Path. The deck Im also having trouble against is the vizier CoCo combo deck. Ill control the mana dorks and keep removal up for the combo pieces. Then random CoCo gets them the win.
Against the CoCo decks, Collective Brutality is honestly quite good. It kills their creature and discards CoCo/Chord at the same time, all in one card. Damn fine value.
Played them and brutalitied with discard and kill two turns in a row...they comboed and won anyway, lol. Bad match is bad match.
I played that weird white enchantment deck a few times as well. We just win by pushing through damage then pulsing the phyrexian unlife. Path will be Path. The deck Im also having trouble against is the vizier CoCo combo deck. Ill control the mana dorks and keep removal up for the combo pieces. Then random CoCo gets them the win.
I agree with Slitz. This would just be a mediocre deaths shadow deck if we added him. By all means, try it out. But why not just go Grixis deaths shadow?
After this weekend Im completely sold on removing dredge all together forever. I played through several deck with turn zero leylines and turn two RIPs like nothing. People think this is dredge and those cards just completely shut us down. They dont.
I finished a game about two minutes ago. I open with a blood crypt into looting. pitch a bloodghast and amalgam. Opponent played a turn two RIP removing my grave. I go and play Overgrown tomb casting a troll. Opponent plays a loam lion. I draw a second looting, cast it, pitch a neonate and cast two free hollow ones. swing with troll which is blocked by the lion. Opponent plays another lion and passes. I lightning axe the lion and before i can get into combat they concede. Opponent kept a terrible hand because he thought RIP would be enough. which it might have been against dredge.
"I do like the idea of Life from the Loam with Conflagrate. Well, at the very least I like Conflagrate. We'll see if Life from the Loam is needed to make flashing back Conflagrate good, or if we can just work off of how our deck works normally."
I dont think we can use Conflagrate with the current built. We would need to add loams for that. If that was the case I would go all in with 4 loams. It would refill our hand for reunions, recur bloodghasts, and fuel the conflags. But what do we cut? It starts to just go back down the rabbit hole and become full dredge.
I like the talk of a BR version. Im not really a deck builder so I wouldnt know where to start. But ill test the crap out of a list on xmage.
I didnt even think about transforming into a burn deck to combat grave hate. A couple of things I dont like about the board is the leylines and domri. Just because not being able to cast the leylines and I have no idea what match I would want Rade in.
Ban? Dude, grixis deaths shadow isn't a format warping oppressive deck. It's interactive, beatable, and not even winning tons of major events. Stop with the banning talk. Modern needs to just be left alone for now.
Manfred, I used your list a couple of times yesterday. I was able to recure the amalgams a few times off Tasigur. That was his only high point. So far Ive noticed that if our opponent can handle a Hollow One they can handle a Tasigur. I probably just dont like the guy.
Played them and brutalitied with discard and kill two turns in a row...they comboed and won anyway, lol. Bad match is bad match.
I didnt like the D//D in the deck. It only did something once you were ahead a bit. And it still didnt win you the game.
I finished a game about two minutes ago. I open with a blood crypt into looting. pitch a bloodghast and amalgam. Opponent played a turn two RIP removing my grave. I go and play Overgrown tomb casting a troll. Opponent plays a loam lion. I draw a second looting, cast it, pitch a neonate and cast two free hollow ones. swing with troll which is blocked by the lion. Opponent plays another lion and passes. I lightning axe the lion and before i can get into combat they concede. Opponent kept a terrible hand because he thought RIP would be enough. which it might have been against dredge.
"I do like the idea of Life from the Loam with Conflagrate. Well, at the very least I like Conflagrate. We'll see if Life from the Loam is needed to make flashing back Conflagrate good, or if we can just work off of how our deck works normally."
I dont think we can use Conflagrate with the current built. We would need to add loams for that. If that was the case I would go all in with 4 loams. It would refill our hand for reunions, recur bloodghasts, and fuel the conflags. But what do we cut? It starts to just go back down the rabbit hole and become full dredge.