So much has happened right here on these forums. The website has changed so much over the years, constantly adapting to the interests of its users, old and new. It helped shape and reinforce what it means to play and love Magic for thousands of people.
I've been here just two months short of seven years. Salvation has really shaped who I am as a player. I started in the Legacy forums talking about Stax, Burn and Reanimator, but thanks to the open nature of these forums and its users I slowly transformed into a Pauper and Commander player. If I look back at my first posts, I'm a completely different person.
Thank you.
Here's to the end of something great and the beginning of something new and interesting, created by the backbone of MtgSalvation.
You're absolutely right on these accounts. I have not tested this deck, and I gotta say it looks like toilet paper. But I'm sure that with a good pilot and a little knowledge, this deck has more than meets the eye. Just your explanation of the first couple turns of the deck gave me a little more insight than Feline's primer. I don't like, however, that the deck seems to rely on this tiny piece of acceleration alone to get good plays.
Also, keep in mind that we're just here to talk about a deck we might not understand enough of :tongue:. This is both good and bad because we think out of the box and offer suggestions that may not have been tested, and we may also not quite understand what the deck is capable of doing. Ahhh! Rogues decks!
I've been running massive tests with opening hands, and I've come to the following conclusion:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Arbor Elf
Land Destruction Spells (13)
4 Ice Storm
4 Winter's Grasp
4 Thermokarst
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 Acidic Slime
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Deus of Calamity
Artifacts (5)
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Trinisphere
Lands (21)
16 Forest
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Oxidize
4 Firespout
3 Choke
I know : Only 3 Wasteland! My reasoning behind this is that it isn't an optimal play to sacrifice a land in exchange for another, prefering to ramp into a 3cc LD spell. In testing, by removing a colourless land I increased my chances of a turn2 LD spell by about 5%, which is pretty significant (this was because in some starting hands, I had only colourless sources of mana).
I added an extra Arbor Elf to have 12 ramp spells. This increased my likelihood of a turn 2 LD spell dramatically (with the 3 Wasteland, I went from 56% to 78%). It also reduced my mulligan rate (from 60% to 46%. I mulliganned very aggressively to get the most T2LDs)
Putting Thrun into the maindeck increased the resilience of my win conditions (aka now I don't need so many) and freed up sideboard slots, namely for Choke.
Replacing Treetop Village with Factories was just about the best change I could make. Them not coming into play tapped made early LD so much easier.
I managed to squeeze in 2 Trinisphere and I think they'll make a difference in many matchups and strengthen my LD spells.
Some quick stats I observed with 50 opening hands and subsequent mulligans:
# of Lands per opening 7 : 2.5
# of lands after mulligan : 1.9
# of Ramp per opening 7 : 1.4
# of Ramp after mulligan : 1.2
# of 3cc LD spells per opening 7 : 1.2
# of 3cc LD spells after mulligan : 1.1
Turn 2 Land Destruction : 78 %
Mulligan : 46%
All in all I'm very happy with my results. I might also add that my last 25 hands were more impressive than the first set. I had a 13 T2LD streak and only 36% mulligan rate (the set had an 88% T2LD). Obviously, destroying a land on the second turn is far from being game over, but it's a good step in that direction. There are also many hands that I would normally have kept if I hadn't been collecting data. an example is a T2 Trinisphere backed up with a Wasteland, which is very powerful. Or a T2 Thrun, which I would definitely keep. I never counted a Wasteland as a T2 LD, but I imagine that if I did, the percentage would rise into the 90s.
4 Deftblade Elite
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Field Marshal
4 Catapult Squad
4 Longbow Archer
3 Jötun Grunt
Instants (8)
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 AEther Vial
Enchantments (4)
4 Shared Triumph
Lands (22)
14 Plains
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Jötun Grunt
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Disenchant
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade
He came in 1st place. It was a small tournament, granted (30 players), but he had to fight through the Goblin menace at the time (2 of them in the top 8). The list still has some interesting things, and while being out of date, there are very concrete applications with today's metagame that can be found within this list.
Shared Triumph can obviously be replaced with Honor of the Pure, which didn't exist back then. There are also a panoply of good new soldiers to use, like Cenn's Tactician, Kor Firewalker, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Porcelain Legionnaire to name a few.
This guy had absolutely no regard for non-graveyard combo decks, unlike the one linked in a previous post. If combo is making a big appearance in your meta, Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst seem like good ways to go.
You can definitely make a viable and competitive Soldier deck.
Thanks:tongue:
I think this a lord list for zombies is quite comparable to a Merfolk list: 16 lords, 9 removal, 20 lands.
I wouldn't go as far as 16 lords but here's something that could do it:
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Death Baron
4 Bad Moon
Other Creatures (15)
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
3 Festering Goblin
2 Shepherd of Rot
2 Gempalm Polluter
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Go for the Throat
1 Diabolic Edict
Other (4)
4 Arcane Denial
Lands (20)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Swamp
1 Island
2 Unholy Grotto
This list might be missing a few more beefy 1-drops like Carrion Feeder, probably in the place of the Gempalms or Shepherd. Even in Legacy, Zombies seem to have a very weak 2-drop slot. Good thing removal fits in nicely there. Maybe Bob is the way to go as well.
I like Zombies in a more weenie/lord build, as they're pretty fast and pack plenty of removal. Add in Arcane Denial and Cavern and I think we have a deck.
4 Deftblade Elite
4 Icatian Javelineers
4 Field Marshal
4 Catapult Squad
4 Longbow Archer
3 Jötun Grunt
Instants (8)
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 AEther Vial
Enchantments (4)
4 Shared Triumph
Lands (22)
14 Plains
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Jötun Grunt
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Disenchant
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade
He came in 1st place. It was a small tournament, granted (30 players), but he had to fight through the Goblin menace at the time (2 of them in the top 8). The list still has some interesting things, and while being out of date, there are very concrete applications with today's metagame that can be found within this list.
Shared Triumph can obviously be replaced with Honor of the Pure, which didn't exist back then. There are also a panoply of good new soldiers to use, like Cenn's Tactician, Kor Firewalker, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Porcelain Legionnaire to name a few.
You can definitely make a viable and competitive Soldier deck.
If you have the cash, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is a superior card to something like Pyroclasm in your deck.
I think 3 colours is really abusive. Your deck could be so much more stable without White. Yes, Armageddon is good, but only if you're stopping them from playing cards in the first place, with Trinipshere or Chalice of the Void. You can't play Armageddon early, because it's disadvantageous to you and it won't have as big an impact on the opponent. Targeted LD seems the way to go for a dedicated land denial deck.
I agree you should take out the Haunting Echoes, it seems subpar compared to Skybreaker. Again, using Burning Wish for land destruction is card disadvantage, which is very bad for you. Sure, it's a flexible card, but I think your targets shouldn't be LD.
Mox Diamond with Crucible would already be a very big improvement, as it fixes your colours and can you get the land back.
Have you thought about splashing Black to your deck for innocent Blood? you could use 4 Vault of Whispers and a few basic swamps (easily found with Myconsynth). That would be a much needed removal card that would work well with your Blizzard-Herder or Myr. It also gives access to Abyssal Gatekeeper, which in my opinion is probably better than the Perilous Myr.
Just a thought. Might be too complicated to be worth including a second colour.
Your list changed quite a bit from the previous one! Looks like it's been improved upon. I'm still not sold on the Amulet. I feel like some cheap equipment or Chromatic Star would be better suited. I've been testing my own list and I prefer Ichor over Mycosynth.
I like your interaction of Akki Blizzard-herder and mass removal spells, it's a really good idea! As well as great fodder for Crack the Earth. Makes for a scary chump-blocker as well.
Here's my list, could you tell me what you think of it? It's a little more explosive than yours:
4 Crack the Earth
4 Raze
3 Tremble
2 Molten Rain
Finishers (7)
3 Keldon Halberdier
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
2 Flame Slash
4 Lightning Bolt
Artifacts (9)
4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Mycosynth Wellspring
2 Bone Saw
10 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Lotus Petal
3 Simian Spirit Guide
Some very nice plays have been: mountain, Lotus Petal, play Ichor Wellspring (draw), play Spirit Guide, play Kuldotha Rebirth (sac Wellspring, draw), Lotus Petal, play Crack the earth (eat a Goblin). All sorts of things like that to make some pretty nutty first turns.
Reading this thread has allowed me to improve my non-pauper Red LD deck. I found a new trick: Darksteel Citadel+ Boom // Bust = 2 turn land destruction without destroying your own land. And I discovered Flame Slash to replace my Strafe to feed Magnivore.
I looked up 37 lands in the forums, and I was pretty impressed. Looks like a really hard deck to play well. I think that it really doesn't need any help from 3cc LD cards (well, maybe one or two could actually be good). I guess 37 lands and the deck we were talking about earlier are pretty different. The latter is a more rampy-midrange kind of deck that beats decks through mana denial and a fast clock, rather than utter mana denial and literally no clock.
Your deck doesn't have Rishadan Ports in it? I'm sure it still works well though. Again I think the two strategies don't mix well. I think 37 lands will be good in a very predictable, hyperevolved metagame, while 3ccLD will be better in a more general I-face-any-tier-deck kind of way. Thanks for sharing this! I learned much from reading the Primer(s). Here's the link in case the Picnic guy is still following, or anyone else for that matter: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=288614
How did the irl testing go?
With this deck, I'd say it's just about mandatory to play first. If you're on the draw, make sure you have a T2 LD.
That's a really awesome idea that takes this deck to new levels. Sounds like really broken synergy. If I ever get my hands on enough cash to spare on that stuff, I'd love to try it out.
I was talking about Lormador's specific list, but I understand what you're saying. I think you're talking about a completely different type of deck! Would there happen to be a primer on this site for it? Could you show us your list? I'm interested
Also, if you're not ready to invest into Ice Storm, you can splash Red and spend 20 cents on 4 Stone Rains. I wouldn't suggest using other red LD card like Pillage, because of the RR (unless you're running plenty of Duals and Fetches, but then, not so budget!).
I compare this deck a lot with a Blue Counterspell deck. You don't need 30 counters to counter everything they play. You just need enough. That's why many counter decks don't use more than 12-15 counters. Same applies with LD spells. You just need enough to stop them from playing breaking spells while beating with yours. The fun starts when you destroy two lands and they miss their next land drop. The decks play in a fairly similar way, minus the draw-go style and card advantage spells which are replaced with ramp.
Good deck! I think you'll discover a lot of things while playtesting.
It's been mathematically proven that 11 is a threshold for obtaining a card in your opening hand without redundancy. Aiming for a t2 land kill, I had added another Arbor Elf (I originally started with 10). I find it a shame with all these land enchantments that you don't have Arbor Elf. 4 mana on T2 is really backbreaking (particularly with Mwonvuli Acid-Moss).
Creeping Mold is completely outclassed by Acidic Slime. It's an easy way to 2-for-1 the opponent, or serve as a beater. I understand you're making this budget but if you like the deck, invest in Ice Storm. The difference between 3 and 4 mana is huge, and increases phenomenally the number of T2 LDs.
I would up the Acidic Slime to 4. It's a really powerful and versatile card for the deck. I'd even go as far as cutting the Deus in favor of them.
I'm on the fence with Life from the Loam. I really like that you're trying it out, that way you'll be able to tell me what you think!
Another reason to be taking out your Deus, and the reason I stopped using Mishra's Factory: Mishra's Factory can't be tapped for mana to play the Deus, which came up frequently. Also, because all of your LD spells take GG to cast, you might run into trouble from time to time, although that's pretty rare. 4 seems like a bit much though.
Let us know about your first impressions!
Glad to hear it! I actually used Terravore for the longest time. It's by no means a bad choice, as it gets just as big as a Tarmogoyf and it has trample for an extra mana, which often makes it better. The extra mana made it so it sometimes made it awkward to play with all the other 3-mana spells.
I toyed around a lot with Lodestone Golem as well, which was excellent, but again died to every removal spell out there + artifact destruction.
As a replacement for Ice Storm, the best I can come up with is Beast Within, which I ran for a bit (on top of the storms) then dropped. A 3/3 on T2 for the opponent is actually not a good idea for this deck.
Awesome suggestions!
I don't use wild growth because I want BoP to create alternate colours of mana to fuel Engineered Explosives. The reason I use Explosives rather than Powder keg is because it's so much faster. I can pop it as soon as it comes into play with the correct number of counters. I do agree that using Kegs with more enchantments would be pretty awesome though. Just a tad slower.
You're absolutely right on this account. A Shroud creature would be so much better. I think I'm going to swap in Thrun, as his shroud and uncounterablility could have served me a lot in game one, in hindsight.
I really like Trinisphere (again, Stax player here). I just don't know what to remove to make room for it. Any ideas?
You really don't need Goyfs, there are other good choices for this deck. I don't recommend Werebear though, there are better cards now.
Oxidize is an excellent Vial-killer (consider bumping those up by removing the Tsunami) on top of the oozes in the main deck makes for plenty of artifact hate.
I don't like Elvish Spirit guide in this deck because it's not a permanent source of mana. Chalices aren't great because they knock out our own mana sources.