MTG Salvation

Ah that's fine, and I apologize. I didn't mean to put pressure on you.

From my calculations, if you aim every burn spell at their face and attack without being blocked, you can kill them in 5 turns. Not bad. Obviously, this will never happen. The strategy will be more like burning creatures out of the way so your raiders can get through for damage.

Changes I would make to the deck: -1 Mad Prophet, +1 Gathan Raiders, -2 Wild Guess, +2 Burning Inquiry.

A year ago, when Faithless looting didn't exist, I would have been 100% to use Burning Inquiry. Looting is just so much better! Using both is an option, I suppose it could replace Wild Guess.

I really would like to hear back from XBM and know what he thinks! :/

Quote from TRAMD

Good. He is about as good as the other non-guide, non-devil, creatures (Lavamancer, Hellspark, Marauders). I was extremely skeptical of him until I had my a** handed to me a couple times by other Burn players who were playing him (when I was playing other decks). He seemed to get to a 4/4 more than I would have liked and then beat my face in. He can give control fits if they have used spot removal on Guide, Lavamancer or Devil.

I see in your decklist that you went 2/2/2 with the 3 creatures you mentioned. Why is that? You can't find a preference between the 3? Or do you think it's ideal, from a versatility point of view?

This is pretty interesting, I kinda thought that it was complete crap because you need to invest 6 mana for it to compare with anything. I suppose it's good when you have mana to spare in top-deck mode.

I can't stand the art either, to be honest! the colours are just too off and I'm not sure what to look at.

Quote from aaronc123

LOL

2x Uba mask + 1 welder is a legal legacy lock though

Could make a strange Ubastax brew with cavern of souls

That could be really interesting in a Red-Stax Build, if anyone plays that. It wouldn't be worth a splash in White.

Quote from GrimSmile

I wanted to play 2 Smokestacks but decided to cut one for second Oblivion Ring. It is kinda sad as a one of but it is still okay card. I might try to tweak the build bit more to fit second Stack in.

Sundial is one of sideboard card against Hive Mind. You can put it out from their S&T (-> getting it into play through countermagic) and if they play Pact you can end your turn during the upkeep -> skip paying the Pact -> don't lose the game. It may be the best answer I can think of against Hive Mind (though it is still not extremely popular deck so I don't want to many sideboard slots for hate against it).

As Obermeir said, I'm not aiming for Uba Stax but just want to use Uba Mask as a control/lock piece in this deck. It works fairly well with 'Geddon and it can deny opponent their countermagic (all counters they draw during their turn can't be played), it is small hate for against combos (they can't keep optimizing their hand) and it will make Miracles harder to play (the draw is replaced by Uba Mask -> they can't be played for their Miracle cost). One big minus is that it makes Jace 2.0 and Brainstorm basically "Draw 3 cards" cards but even those cards can only be cast during the turn they were drawn.

I... Had never thought of using Uba Mask in those ways. That's pretty neat!

Quote from Nantuko

I think the biggest pro of O. Ring is that it comes down off a Show and Tell which cannot be said for Warp.

Very good pro indeed. Why does it have to be white?

I don't agree a full playset of Badlands is needed to carry out this gameplan. With such a minor splash being made I still recommend minimal non-basics and a high amount of fetch lands. Here is an example of such mana base being used here and with great success I might add.

Thanks a lot for the link! 14 fetches is crazy! I like it. Might be a little overboard though. The only white he's using is Lynx, so that explains why he basically wants to fetch every turn. I think that if he wasn't abusing Landfall, he would have more like 10-11 fetches. There's no harm in running more, though... (well aside from Stifle or Blood Moon, but who would board that against burn?)

My order of playing 1 CMC spells:
1. Goblin Guide
2. Grim Lavamancer
3. Vexing Devil
4. Rift Bolt*
5. Lava Spike/Bump in the Night
6. Chain Lightning
7. Lightning Bolt
*By the nature of the card you want to suspend it ASAP so it can have an impact on the game and if the scenario was being stuck on one land this would be the order in which I would play my spells. However, on my turn 2 with 2 mountains I will play say a Lava spike and then Rift Bolt as its Daze proof when suspending it.

Now I'm glad I asked, because I learned something! I never noticed that Daze-proof line of play before. Thank you!

Quote from TRAMD

You don't want a 2 CMC discard spell. You want Thoughtseize, Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek, in that order. Actually Duress will be better than Thoughtseize in almost every match-up where you would side in discard and is just a bit cheaper.

I don't know what to think about Deathrite Shaman but I am currently running mono-red so I won't be testing him. I just don't think he should be dismissed so easily by anyone running black.

Well, I was actually hoping for either a Alt-cost Discard spell (only one is Unmask, which doesn't work) or a discard spell with Burn latched on. With both these, I could play discard without losing a turn. But, against a good combo deck, it would be better to run discard and lose a turn than just lose the game I guess!

Deathrite Shaman is good, that's for sure, I'm not convinced he's good enough. I haven't tested him, so I may be mistaken. However just by looking at his abilities, I can tell he's going to be slower than a Bolt and a terrible top-deck when you want to finish the last few points asap. I'll test him eventually, but right now I'm concentrating on changing variables one at a time, so as to optimize the deck.

My order of playing 1 CMC spells:
1. Goblin Guide
2. Grim Lavamancer/Figure of Destiny
3. Vexing Devil
4. Rift Bolt
5. Lava Spike/Bump in the Night
6. Chain Lightning
7. Lightning Bolt

Of course things can always change this but I generally try to stick to this order.

Ah you both included Goblin Guide. That's hands down the t1 play to make, but I was writing more specifically about 3 damage spells (Vexing Devil is somewhat part of the category). How's Figure of Destiny treating you?

Quote from Nantuko

Its a real treat when some one puts so much effort in testing and recording results, It makes it easier to quantify the differences between builds. One suggestion I may have is possibly lowering the number of non-basics to just two Badlands. I've played with some splash builds in the past, for me it seemed like an acceptable amount of lands to produce that splash color. When you consider the amount of fetch lands that are being ran, obtaining a dual should rarely be an issue. This lowering of the non-basic count would also have a positive impact on your POP situation. Also, you probably already do this, but in my testing I'd only fetch for that Dual if I had the Off color card in my hand (Bump in the night). This method conceals information and helps prevent mana screw due to land destruction, wasteland mainly. On Chaos Warp, is it effective sideboard card, which matchups do you tend to bring it in for? This has always peaked my interest as its quiet unique card for red but I've never got around to testing it.

Thanks for bringing up my hard work 125 games takes a long time, but it's worth it, for the sake of data to compare with!

I'm not sold on taking out the Blood Crypts. They're there to be drawn, not fetched, so that I have a greater chance of getting black mana, in the event of not getting a badlands or a fetch in my hand. They're pretty useful (obviously, more Badlands would be better). However you do have a point for PoP. Adding more PoP would increase my number of third turn kills.

Exactly. The opponent doesn't realize that I'm running a black splash often until game 2. I always play my basics first, so that in the event that I draw into Bump, I can fetch Badlands.

Chaos Warp is another winner. Decent against Reanimator (as long as it's not iona, sphinx or inkwell), since they mostly have non-permanents in the deck. Because its' an instant, you can make some nasty tricks in combat versus creature decks (the ones that let Vexing Devil come into play). It's also my main answer to leylines and such.

Quote from michaelangelo

The singleton Swamp crossed my mind as well but after thinking about it twice it now seems like a bad idea.

Ex. Your ideal way to start the game would be T1 Mountain, Guide, T2 Mountain, Devil, Lava Spike. This deck almost always keeps a 2 lander hand but if one of the two lands is a basic Swamp, this cuts off the possibility of your playing 3 spells (half of the 6 that you need) by the end of turn 2 (barring one of your spells being BitN).

Another scenario where this would be counterproductive would be when your opponent is between 7-9 life, and you have 3 Bolts in your hand and 2 Mountains and a Swamp in play. This gives the opponent an extra turn... burn decks usually win by one turn, or lose by one turn, so any leeway is not something we can afford.

I think the best way for this deck to work is to run 10 fetchlands and 4 Badlands. This way, he has a consistent supply of mana fixing via the fetches, and can handle an opponent drawing 3 Wastelands in one game. Since none of his spells cost BB, he only needs one Badlands to make the deck work effectively.

On a side note, I think that the lack of Price of Progress in this deck is negated by having the extra bolt (BitN). As I mentioned before, good legacy players usually fetch out basics when playing against burn, in preparation for Price as it is. Therefore, the consistency of the 3rd 3 for 3 will most likely turn out to be better than the (very) occasional bomb.

Any time I drew a swamp, I would have rather had a Badlands. If the swamp could stay tucked away in the deck until I fetched it, it would be perfect.

So, I still need more fetches, in your opinion? You're probably right.

Quote from Wolf_Cub82

I realized the problems it might create for mana consistency (and said so). But on the other hand, Wasteland to a Badlands could leave one stuck with one or two Bump in the Night in hand that one can't play. That's why I recommended testing it out. Color splashing in general weakens the consistency and reliability of a Burn style deck. But I am intrigued by whether or not an extra Bolt and Rakdos Charm can make up for it.

I think the answer is to just run more fetches to dig out the non-basics. In Goldfish testing, the deck is faster than average. In reality, the weakness to Wasteland bites me in the ass from time to time. This is mitigated by taking precautions such as using the fetches last and playing as many basic mountains as possible. Is conceals the splash and protects against wasteland.

Quote from TRAMD

If you are going to splash, then you need something to slow down combo decks, our worst match-up. This seems to be either blue for counters or black for discard. There are plenty of good graveyard hate cards that Burn can run without a splash and Chaos Warp can frequently be as good as Oblivion Ring, if you are even seeing that many Leyline of Sanctitys. O-ring can get rid of Emrakul but Ensnaring Bridge is pretty good there.

If Black had an aggressive 1-drop on par with Delver or Guide then I think it would be a good choice for a splash. As it stands now, I think it is either pure red or UR.

....wait, Deathrite Shaman might be that one drop. The fact that it doesn't target, that exiling a card from an opponent's graveyard might be important at times and that you can use it for ramp means that it could be considered to take a few slots from Grim Lavamancer in some builds.

I've thought about putting discard in the sb before, but I just can't find something good enough, really. If there was somthing likeBlightning that was BR then it would be perfect. I'm also in a combo-weak environment, which is why the splash is appropriate (and playing burn in general).

Deathrite Shaman is a big nono. At least for me. It's just so slow... and it doesn't damage creatures. Okay, untargettable, and hits other peoples' yards, but it just doesn't fit the speed I'm trying to achieve by splashing. Lavamancer isn't fast enough for me. Marauders aren't fast enough.

I also want to discuss what order everyone plays their bolts:

1.(Vexing Devil)
2. Lava Spike
3. Rift Bolt
4. Chain Lightning
5. Lightning Bolt
6. Bump

I think there's a difference between using Uba Mask and abusing it lol

In his deck, Grimsmile is thinking that by denying the opponent mana, all future cards he/she will draw will simply be exiled, rather than played. It's not a bad strategy I suppose, but it's not broken like in Vintage!

Ha, well I have a mono-green LD deck that used to use Treetop Village as a finisher. I was never happy to have it in my opening hand. I eventually cut them for Mishra's Factory, which improved the deck!

I'll definitely try them out though, they might be appropriate in this deck.

It's nice, but the random discard is kinda lame. I've seen people put it to good use though. Don't forget, if your opponent has 3 cards in hand, they draw 3, then discard 3 (among the 6 in their hand). Odds are it won't hurt that much.

Have you tried the deck out, XBM?

Uba stax was a thing in Vintage for a while, if I'm not mistaken.

Ice Age Plains are my fav land art ever. Very good choice.

I would cut the Sundial, frankly. The combo with Smokestack is cute, but I doubt the necessity of it (and it's only a 1-of that can't be fetched)

A single Smokestack isn't going to do you much goo either.

Quote from Wolf_Cub82

Do you find that you can afford to give up the maindeck interaction because of the versatile value that Rakdos Charm gives you in the sideboard? In other words, it answers a lot of the things you just can't race?

Well, so far my irl games have been : G1, race in 3-4 turns, regardless of what they're playing. G2-3, board in what's necessary (usually Rakdos Charm, as it's useful against creature decks, yard strategies and artifacts, which covers many decks in legacy).

In the end, yes, you're right. I want the fastest game one as possible, and then in game two I shore up on the weaknesses I have in that matchup, using Rakdos Charm as a catch-all card.

Quote from Pasab

White give us more options to deal with things we are hopeless in mono red in my opinion, Rest In Peace erases graveyard, Oblivion Ring captures enchantments and Emrakul and Lightning Helix gives us life and burn at the same time. I'm not completely sold to Steppe Lynx, so if anyone has a better idea...

Your deck seems pretty good, but as you say I'm not convinced of the Lynx. Maybe max out your Rift Bolts instead, maybe the PoP too? I don't think there are really any other reasons to use white other than Helix and o-ring.

Quote from Wolf_Cub82

Although I don't personally run a color splash in my Burn deck, Rakdos Charm isn't a bad reason to. When I first saw it spoiled, I thought it was one of the best, most versatile "answer" cards I'd seen in a long time. It's perfect for Legacy. It destroys Batterskull and brutally punishes any graveyard or tribal strategy. It answers a lot of things for two mana at instant speed.

That said, michealangelo has a good point about Wasteland. You might also consider running a single Swamp because of this. It could mess with your mana consistency, though. I'd recommend testing it, at least, just to see how it plays out. You've got an experimental build, so there's lots of testing to be done anyway.

I originally had basic swamp and played it for a while. I ended up removing it, because it made for really awkward plays when it came up in opening hands or when drawn. It just messed with the mana more than it was useful.

I agree I have a lot more testing to do to find something optimal!

Quote from michaelangelo

I think Rakdos Charm would be too perfect for this deck, if it were RR.

Try to get a playset of Badlands because Wasteland is going to ruin your day. In a deck where we keep a 2 land hand, a turn 2 Wasteland against RUG Delver is almost GG. Also, I don't know what your meta is like but you have no answer for storm in your sideboard.

Haha, getting a second one was hard enough. duals are expensive. With lots of bolts, I can get away with running on 1 land for a while, especially with my opponent having used a wasteland. But it certainly is a glaring disadvantage, compared to mono-coloured decks. I don't think I'll invest any more into duals, unless I decide I really like splashing. My meta is really not into combo, which is good for burn (and good for experimenting). there's one player who likes Hive Mind, but REB is an okay answer, and it hits Merfolk pretty well too. I also thought that Rakdos Charm could possibly kill a combo player that used EtW, but no one really does that here.

Quote from Nantuko

Cool build! I would agree that running 5 non-basic lands would present the deck with new a weakness that it doesn't currently face. So the question then becomes whether 4 more bolts is worth that new weakness. How was the charm been in your testing?

Rakdos Charm has been absolutely perfect. It does so much on its' own, it feels like I freed up sb slots by adding it. Adding the weakness of non-basic hate is not worth the extra bolts, but with extra sb options, I think it's viable.

So far, I'm liking the splash, the deck gets third turn kill 8% more often than before (I based this in goldfishing environment, things are much different in reality. I played 125 solo games before and after). It gets there in four over 90% of the time. I gave up a lot of interaction for speed. The one thing I regret is not running more PoP. It now deals damage to me, so I cut a few, but I'm still not sure.

*Happy experimental deck interlude!*

We'll get back to your venomous debate in just a moment.

I finally got my second badlands and some more fetches!



The deck is a lot less painful now, since I only fetch Badlands. The barbarian ring is an excellent 19th land, considering all my fetces and lack of lavamancers (which I don't want to use). I play against creature-based decks, so Searing Blaze is nice (not looking to debate this ).

Any comments on the build? Lots bolts is nice. Rakdos Charm is sweet.

Quote from XBM Yosho

Can you slap together a deck list? I have never run a burn or discard deck before.

Thanks.

I'd love to.



Obviously this is practically off the top of my head. I don't think there are quite enough creatures, although I have high hopes for Gathan Raiders. There's enough draw/ filtering spread across the creatures/instants/sorceries to find what you need. I'd also find some room in there somewhere for Searing Blaze. That card is nuts.

How about... A burn deck with a discard theme? You could then just pitch the Firecat, and use Fiery Temper, possibly Reckless Wurm, Hellspark Elemental, Firebolt, Geistflame, Swirling Sanstorm, Basking Rootwalla... Lots of options with Faithless Looting.