Guys, this looks cool! I was thinking about doing Adeliz for Tiny Leaders, as I think it's the best option for pauper. I think it can be competitive even against full power TL decks if built right. I was thinking something along the lines of UR Delver. Any suggestions in particular?
Thanks!
Since you lose a lot of the infinite recursion and value stuff by restricting to only 3cmc, Tempo definitely seems like the way to go with this deck in TL.
Aside from creatures, the same tempo-style cards you see in Pauper will be excellent here for sure. Lots of counters, free spells, etc. Sounds like a powerful deck!
Well, my reasoning is that since you can play partner cards like Krav, the Unredeemed and Regna, the Redeemer as your commanders (both start in the command zone), the same is true for uncommon creatures with partner with PDH rules, like Blaring Captain and Blaring Recruiter. That seemed to make sense in my head, but maybe not?
As for the question of changing PDH to only legendary commanders: I think it would be possible, but I don't think there is quite enough variety of uncommon legendaries to make an interesting format that everyone would enjoy. Right now the format is rich and interesting because of the sheer number of possible commanders and strategies that revolve around them, some not even being possible in normal EDH. I don't think this change would help to grow PDh, personally.
Here's me playing my Jalira build against regular commanders:
I went for a combo approach rather than going big. It would work a lot better in real life than online, as you'll find out if you watch the video... lol
Essentially, you use Jalira as a way to find the creature portion of your combo and go off just like many of the other Blue decks in PDH do. Peregrine Drake, Cloud of Faeries, Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall are desired targets.
I just stumbled on this card accidentally. Seems quite powerful in the mid-late game. Discarding some lands and/or some madness stuff to refill your hand with action seems like quite the deal for just B. Is there a deck out there for this card?
I guess it works a bit like tortured Existence. It doesn't have the long-term benefits of being an enchantment, but it is very cost-effective and doesn't require you to discard only creatures.
Distortion for Snap makes sense. We care more about being unblocked than we do creatures being in play, in theory. Snap is just a bit more versatile, but it could certainly go.
Trickery over Deprive is a good idea. Exiling spells is so strong in this format.
Congratulations micah1! It's so great to see you getting such excellent results with the deck!
Do you think Pristine Talisman would be better than Tanglebloom? Gaining life without the stack has been important in some scenarios, and ramping with this deck is actually relevant. Is it the mana cost that is making you steer towards Tanglebloom?
I'll have to pick up your deck and give it a spin!
EDIT: Derp, didn't notice there is already a playset of talismans in the maindeck. Good stuff!
I agree with your thoughts on information dealer. The only thing I can see going for it is that if you can re-arrange the top 2-4 cards every turn, it can end up being quite good over many activations (especially with shuffle effects). I want to keep it just because it's pretty much the only wizard-specific synergy the deck has. I could definitely see it not being good enough.
I also noticed that Searing Blaze is difficult to cast and requires a land drop in order to be worth it. I was thinking Staggershock could come back in instead. doubling activations for free seems good.
I see Rolling Thunder as more of a board wipe or way to get rid of specific creatures. I don't expect this to be going face very often.
Wow your deck looks so similar to mine! I guess we're probably on the right track then!
I don't feel quite comfortable taking out more creatures at this point. Adeliz's strength diminishes the smaller our board presence gets, so we want to make sure we can get hits in with 4-5 wizards at a time to practically 1-shot opponents. Maybe after some more testing, I'll feel better about cutting more creatures.
Just as a sidenote: I was really amazed at Vedalken Dismisser in other games of PDH I've played. Being able to flicker him multiple times over the course of a match makes you realize how busted his ability is. It wrecks your opponents board AND ruins their draws. Flickering him makes it so your opponent is not drawing anything new for multiple turns, which is back-breaking. It's essentially like getting a 2-for-1 every time. He feels like a rare.
I had Distant Melody in my first builds, but it's a bit too situational. Borrowing 100,000 Arrows has been much stronger, and am also a fan of Rush of Knowledge in terms of the raw card draw it provides. We have a lot of 5-drops that make this good.
I've had good results with Oona's Grace in the past, but maybe I'm overvaluing instant-speed draw too much in this deck. We aren't actually holding up mana all the time like with other builds. I think I'll try Secrets of the Golden City like you suggest.
I will keep boilerworks, as we can use all the fixing we can get our hands on in PDH. I had to cut a lot of the pieces of infinite combo with CoF in order to make space for the natural synergies of the deck. Not sure if it makes it worse, but it will definitely stand out from other blue decks that all run the same 15-20 blue cards.
I kinda like Shattering Pulse, which was a suggestion from TEMUJIN. I'll give it a shot. If not, I was thinking Destructive Tampering, a card I've come to really appreciate in PDH.
I'll have to see about tweaking the number of basics. We are really skewed towards Blue, at the moment.
I would probably never play the front end of Fiery Fall, so I don't think it's worth playing. Traumatic Visions I like, though! Drift of Phantasms is pretty interesting, as it fetches up combo pieces like Ghostly Flicker, as well as good creatures like Wee Dragonauts and a single powerful spell: Capsize. It's probably worth playing, but what to cut?
I initially started out with 5 protection spells and eventually had to cave in and cut to 3. It doesn't feel like a lot, but then again Adeliz is only 3 mana and has haste, so we can still cast her multiple times in a game and do significant damage right away. I think I would feel a lot better with 4 pieces. But again: what to cut? This deck is feeling so tight as it is!
You said you were building your own list. Have you finished it? I would really appreciate seeing someone else's creation to compare!
I actually like Goreclaw since it makes many of our finishers cheaper, including Titania. +1/+1 may not be completely relevant, but trample is. This might be good enough to run over Kamahl, Fist of Krosa in builds that run him. Of Course, Khamal has other greater upsides, but the mixture of cheaper spells and giving the team trample on such a cheap card seems excellent.
Goblin Instigator is currently Mogg War Marshal. I'm eager to make the switch, as MWM is a bit awkward, as you either don't have enough mana to combo if you pay the echo or you're down an attacker for the turn if you don't.
Turn 3 kill with the deck: Turn 1 land into Springleaf Drum. Turn 2 land into Krenko's Command or Dragon Fodder, tap token to cast Kuldotha Rebirth using Drum and sacrificing it. Turn 3 Attack with 5 goblins, cast Rites of Initiation discarding remaining three cards in hand for 20 damage. I only got it once in a practice game, but it was so sweet.
Otherwise, super simple combo. get to 4 mana to cast both Keep Watch and Rites on the same combat to deal insane amounts of damage. Usually more of a turn 5 combo deck.
This basically makes my current Enchantress deck obsolete. Green is just about the best second colour we could have hoped for, and it comes with a strictly better body!
Thanks so much for the great suggestions from both of you! You guys are awesome!
I honestly think Adeliz is going to be one of the most powerful commanders in PDH. Wizards are a very deep tribe, and Adeliz gives them the consistent synergy they were always lacking.
I obviously have way too many creatures. I basically took all the wizards I thought were interesting and put them here, and I'm slowly trying to cut down to about 30. 13 to go now!
I think 37 lands is a lot for a deck that has so much draw. I'm aiming for 35 currently.
I was really impressed with Borrowing 100,000 Arrows in my Tatyova build. Maybe it should be in every Blue deck.
Defy Gravity is exactly the kind of card this build likes! Evasion and double-dipping on Adeliz triggers for cheap. Perfect!
Great suggestions all around! Thanks again!
This deck is gonna rock! Let's brew!
EDIT: I started categorizing spells in order to help sort them better to find what to cut. I've added many of your suggestions and have also made room for Aven Wind Mage and Salvager of Secrets. I'm finding myself cutting most of the Red wizards, which is unfortunate. Hopefully I can make up for that with a healthy amount of Burn. I'm still looking to cut 2-4 more creatures, but the majority of the creature cuts have been made, and it wasn't easy to sort through everything! Now it's time to start sorting through all the spells.
EDTI2: I've finally arrived at a 100-card deck! This has got to be one of the decks that gave me the most difficulty in terms of the amount of choices I had in deck-building. It's not perfect, but playing the deck will give me better insight on where to go from here.
I'm very excited to try out Adeliz in PDH! Wizards are a very deep tribe, and Adeliz gives them the consistent synergy they were lacking until now.
Essentially, the deck can play as a tempo deck, bouncing or destroying threats your opponents play all the while attacking with mostly evasive creatures that get bigger when you cast your spells thanks to the commander.
Cheap spell are prioritized, particularly ones that cantrip. These allow us to go through our deck faster and get a nice big storm count for our Commander. The more creatures we have out, the better her ability becomes.
OK, first of all I gave up on trying to protect the commander. After all it's a mono red deck, so it is a glass cannon one
EDIT: Found two protection options to join Goblin Chirurgeon!!! See in the 'in' section below.
Like I said before, taking out Kuldotha Rebirth opens up a lot of deck space from taking out so many artifacts, most of which are in your Out section.
Don't underestimate Fissure. This is an instant-speed way to straight up kill a creature (or land) at instant speed. In red, its cost is quite appropriate. It's basically a Red PDH staple in my eyes.
Ondu Champion is one of those cards you need to test before you decide to cut it. I've been really happy with the evasion is grants. The fact that it triggers when you play him or Zada makes it quite consistent.
Heelcutter gets rid of the best blocker and also hits very hard. Card's not going anywhere!
I just remembered an excellent card to add: Rites of Initiation. Our Zada combo is a bit like the Keep Watch side of the Watch Rites combo, so being able to draw a ton of cards at instant speed and then discard them to Rites is game over.
EDIT: I just noticed that I had already put the Chirugeon in my deck! Derp!
Good change! Looks a lot more stylish. Although it feels kinda like Facebook and Twitter at the same time. Why do all community websites just imitate the big social media guys?
My favorite card is Deftblade Elite. Although I'm not generally a White player, this card is just so sweet; he has won me games. Whether he's killing a provoked creature every turn with lots of pump like Honor the Pure or Catapult Squad, or he's getting a dangerous blocker out of the way so my other creatures can get through (and lives to do it again!),he gets the job done! Just an all-round good card. and a common 1-drop, too!
I really like your introduction! Very concise and explains where the archetype comes from.
Is Cadaverous Knight really a core creature? It barely looks playable, to me anyways.
Maybe comment on each creature and specify in what style it belongs to (control or aggro), so that we can get a better idea of where they belong. You can also include ''shells'' of decks, in other words cards that must be run in order to make the deck function.
A notable exclusion from your otherwise rather full list is Nameless Inversion. This card is a complete beast in this deck, as it's recurable removal, with cards like Ghoulcaller's Chant and Ghoul Raiser.
Bonesplitter probably deserves a mention, as do other pump spells like Unholy Strength (there are many variants available).
I think Top 8 and Video sections are wishful thinking, as there are no sanctioned paper pauper tournaments. If you can get your hands on some MTGO videos playing Zombies, that might be a useful tool.
I suggest a section on Peasant (five uncommons max). It doesn't require a much bigger metagaming knowledge, just another card search. There are lots of uncommon candidates for Zombies.
A brief (or very detailed) matchup breakdown and analysis would be very appreciated. I like to test against many of the top decks in Pauper to see where mine stands, but I understand it's not possible for everyone, considering play-mates and time.
Overall, I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for playable cards, and cutting some of the more "fringe" ones is probably a good idea (you can also use the rating system to determine the value of each card to the deck). But it's a really good start! I look forward to seeing the rest!
Thanks!
Since you lose a lot of the infinite recursion and value stuff by restricting to only 3cmc, Tempo definitely seems like the way to go with this deck in TL.
Aside from the creatures already in our piles, I would add Ghitu Lavarunner, Escape Artist, Spellstutter Sprite, maybe Ghitu Journeymage, Spellweaver Eternal, Martyr of Frost, Hapless Researcher, Ninja of the Deep Hours for value... You'd probably want to cut some of the 3-drops to lower the curve and leave space for Adeliz. The new Viashino Pyromancer might also be good enough to run.
Aside from creatures, the same tempo-style cards you see in Pauper will be excellent here for sure. Lots of counters, free spells, etc. Sounds like a powerful deck!
As for the question of changing PDH to only legendary commanders: I think it would be possible, but I don't think there is quite enough variety of uncommon legendaries to make an interesting format that everyone would enjoy. Right now the format is rich and interesting because of the sheer number of possible commanders and strategies that revolve around them, some not even being possible in normal EDH. I don't think this change would help to grow PDh, personally.
I went for a combo approach rather than going big. It would work a lot better in real life than online, as you'll find out if you watch the video... lol
Essentially, you use Jalira as a way to find the creature portion of your combo and go off just like many of the other Blue decks in PDH do. Peregrine Drake, Cloud of Faeries, Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall are desired targets.
I just stumbled on this card accidentally. Seems quite powerful in the mid-late game. Discarding some lands and/or some madness stuff to refill your hand with action seems like quite the deal for just B. Is there a deck out there for this card?
I guess it works a bit like tortured Existence. It doesn't have the long-term benefits of being an enchantment, but it is very cost-effective and doesn't require you to discard only creatures.
Trickery over Deprive is a good idea. Exiling spells is so strong in this format.
Rolling Thunder is fetchable by Muddle the Mixture also!
Do you think Pristine Talisman would be better than Tanglebloom? Gaining life without the stack has been important in some scenarios, and ramping with this deck is actually relevant. Is it the mana cost that is making you steer towards Tanglebloom?
I'll have to pick up your deck and give it a spin!
EDIT: Derp, didn't notice there is already a playset of talismans in the maindeck. Good stuff!
I also noticed that Searing Blaze is difficult to cast and requires a land drop in order to be worth it. I was thinking Staggershock could come back in instead. doubling activations for free seems good.
I see Rolling Thunder as more of a board wipe or way to get rid of specific creatures. I don't expect this to be going face very often.
That function split seems solid.
I don't feel quite comfortable taking out more creatures at this point. Adeliz's strength diminishes the smaller our board presence gets, so we want to make sure we can get hits in with 4-5 wizards at a time to practically 1-shot opponents. Maybe after some more testing, I'll feel better about cutting more creatures.
Just as a sidenote: I was really amazed at Vedalken Dismisser in other games of PDH I've played. Being able to flicker him multiple times over the course of a match makes you realize how busted his ability is. It wrecks your opponents board AND ruins their draws. Flickering him makes it so your opponent is not drawing anything new for multiple turns, which is back-breaking. It's essentially like getting a 2-for-1 every time. He feels like a rare.
I had Distant Melody in my first builds, but it's a bit too situational. Borrowing 100,000 Arrows has been much stronger, and am also a fan of Rush of Knowledge in terms of the raw card draw it provides. We have a lot of 5-drops that make this good.
I've had good results with Oona's Grace in the past, but maybe I'm overvaluing instant-speed draw too much in this deck. We aren't actually holding up mana all the time like with other builds. I think I'll try Secrets of the Golden City like you suggest.
Must find room for Drift of Phantasms and Diplomatic Immunity...
I wish I could play Displace. I had to displace it to make space... I probably won't put it back in, especially if I include Drift of Phantasms.
Great stuff! Looking forward to more progress! I've got my deck built now, with Aven Wind Mage and Salvager of Secrets now in my possession!
I will keep boilerworks, as we can use all the fixing we can get our hands on in PDH. I had to cut a lot of the pieces of infinite combo with CoF in order to make space for the natural synergies of the deck. Not sure if it makes it worse, but it will definitely stand out from other blue decks that all run the same 15-20 blue cards.
I kinda like Shattering Pulse, which was a suggestion from TEMUJIN. I'll give it a shot. If not, I was thinking Destructive Tampering, a card I've come to really appreciate in PDH.
I'll have to see about tweaking the number of basics. We are really skewed towards Blue, at the moment.
I would probably never play the front end of Fiery Fall, so I don't think it's worth playing. Traumatic Visions I like, though! Drift of Phantasms is pretty interesting, as it fetches up combo pieces like Ghostly Flicker, as well as good creatures like Wee Dragonauts and a single powerful spell: Capsize. It's probably worth playing, but what to cut?
I initially started out with 5 protection spells and eventually had to cave in and cut to 3. It doesn't feel like a lot, but then again Adeliz is only 3 mana and has haste, so we can still cast her multiple times in a game and do significant damage right away. I think I would feel a lot better with 4 pieces. But again: what to cut? This deck is feeling so tight as it is!
You said you were building your own list. Have you finished it? I would really appreciate seeing someone else's creation to compare!
I'm playing the UR Goblin token version of this deck. been having good success with it online so far.
4 Rites of Initiation
4 Keep Watch
Creatures (20)
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
4 Goblin Instigator
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Krenko's Command
4 Hordeling Outburst
Card Draw (8)
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Dispel
Mana (21)
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
1 Island
2 Mountain
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
2 Izzet Boilerworks
4 Springleaf Drum
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Electrickery
2 Flaring Pain
3 Mizzium Skin
2 Relic of Progenitus
Goblin Instigator is currently Mogg War Marshal. I'm eager to make the switch, as MWM is a bit awkward, as you either don't have enough mana to combo if you pay the echo or you're down an attacker for the turn if you don't.
Having Hordeling Outburst and Kuldotha Rebirth makes it easy to have a lethal amount of creatures in play with very few cards spent.
Turn 3 kill with the deck: Turn 1 land into Springleaf Drum. Turn 2 land into Krenko's Command or Dragon Fodder, tap token to cast Kuldotha Rebirth using Drum and sacrificing it. Turn 3 Attack with 5 goblins, cast Rites of Initiation discarding remaining three cards in hand for 20 damage. I only got it once in a practice game, but it was so sweet.
Otherwise, super simple combo. get to 4 mana to cast both Keep Watch and Rites on the same combat to deal insane amounts of damage. Usually more of a turn 5 combo deck.
Sideoard Electrickery helps fight other go-wide decks. Mizzium Skin fights other Electrickeries. Flaring Pain can be discarded to Rites of Initiation when comboing off and cast from the graveyard for 1 mana.
Some vids:
This basically makes my current Enchantress deck obsolete. Green is just about the best second colour we could have hoped for, and it comes with a strictly better body!
Just off the top of my head, Rancor, Ancestral Mask, Armadillo Cloak, Utopia Sprawl, Abundant Growth, Wild Growth as well as many of the digging spells like Benefaction of Rhonas, Commune with the Gods and Kruphix's Insight are going to benefit the archetype immensely.
I honestly think Adeliz is going to be one of the most powerful commanders in PDH. Wizards are a very deep tribe, and Adeliz gives them the consistent synergy they were always lacking.
I obviously have way too many creatures. I basically took all the wizards I thought were interesting and put them here, and I'm slowly trying to cut down to about 30. 13 to go now!
I think 37 lands is a lot for a deck that has so much draw. I'm aiming for 35 currently.
Peregrine Drake and High Tide are definitely going in.
I can't very well play Red PDH without Rolling Thunder, can I?
Neurok Stealthsuit, Clout of the Dominus and Diplomatic Immunity are all definitely going to make the cut.
I was really impressed with Borrowing 100,000 Arrows in my Tatyova build. Maybe it should be in every Blue deck.
Defy Gravity is exactly the kind of card this build likes! Evasion and double-dipping on Adeliz triggers for cheap. Perfect!
Great suggestions all around! Thanks again!
This deck is gonna rock! Let's brew!
EDIT: I started categorizing spells in order to help sort them better to find what to cut. I've added many of your suggestions and have also made room for Aven Wind Mage and Salvager of Secrets. I'm finding myself cutting most of the Red wizards, which is unfortunate. Hopefully I can make up for that with a healthy amount of Burn. I'm still looking to cut 2-4 more creatures, but the majority of the creature cuts have been made, and it wasn't easy to sort through everything! Now it's time to start sorting through all the spells.
EDTI2: I've finally arrived at a 100-card deck! This has got to be one of the decks that gave me the most difficulty in terms of the amount of choices I had in deck-building. It's not perfect, but playing the deck will give me better insight on where to go from here.
I'm very excited to try out Adeliz in PDH! Wizards are a very deep tribe, and Adeliz gives them the consistent synergy they were lacking until now.
Essentially, the deck can play as a tempo deck, bouncing or destroying threats your opponents play all the while attacking with mostly evasive creatures that get bigger when you cast your spells thanks to the commander.
Cheap spell are prioritized, particularly ones that cantrip. These allow us to go through our deck faster and get a nice big storm count for our Commander. The more creatures we have out, the better her ability becomes.
1 Adeliz, the Cinder Wind
Creatures (28)
1 Wingcrafter
1 Augur of Bolas
1 Cephalid Scout
1 Goblin Electromancer
1 Information Dealer
1 Pathmaker Initiate
1 Sanguinary Mage
1 Stonybrook Banneret
1 Thalakos Seer
1 Thought Courier
1 Voidmage Apprentice
1 Aven Wind Mage
1 AEther Adept
1 Neurok Invisimancer
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Warden of Evos Isle
1 Wee Dragonauts
1 Archaeomancer
1 Separatist Voidmage
1 Academy Journeymage
1 Peregrine Drake
1 Covert Operative
1 Salvager of Secrets
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Sphinx's Disciple
1 Wind Strider
1 Mulldrifter
1 Vedalken Dismisser
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Impulse
1 Think Twice
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Oona's Grace
1 Compulsive Research
1 Vedalken AEthermage
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gush
1 Treasure Cruise
Countermagic (4)
1 Counterspell
1 Deprive
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Exclude
Burn/Bounce/Removal (12)
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Flame Slash
1 Vapor Snag
1 Snap
1 Searing Blaze
1 Repeal
1 Jilt
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Capsize
1 Shadow Rift
1 Defy Gravity
1 Artful Dodge
1 Gigadrowse
1 Ghostly Flicker
Protection (3)
1 Clout of the Dominus
1 Neurok Stealthsuit
1 Alexi's Cloak
Lands (35)
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Command Tower
1 Ash Barrens
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Highland Lake
15 Island
11 Mountain
Ha! I can't believe I forgot about Goblin Chirurgeon! I've even been playing around with that card in regular pauper recently!The Brute is also interesting... What a weird design.
Not sure if Herbal Poultice is even worth playing.
Like I said before, taking out Kuldotha Rebirth opens up a lot of deck space from taking out so many artifacts, most of which are in your Out section.
Don't underestimate Fissure. This is an instant-speed way to straight up kill a creature (or land) at instant speed. In red, its cost is quite appropriate. It's basically a Red PDH staple in my eyes.
Ondu Champion is one of those cards you need to test before you decide to cut it. I've been really happy with the evasion is grants. The fact that it triggers when you play him or Zada makes it quite consistent.
Heelcutter gets rid of the best blocker and also hits very hard. Card's not going anywhere!
I just remembered an excellent card to add: Rites of Initiation. Our Zada combo is a bit like the Keep Watch side of the Watch Rites combo, so being able to draw a ton of cards at instant speed and then discard them to Rites is game over.
EDIT: I just noticed that I had already put the Chirugeon in my deck! Derp!