The general philosophy of this board is to keep discussions contained into a single thread, so people don't have to read 10 page discussions in 4 or more previous threads. Age, in these situations, does not matter.
I understand that. I don't really appreciate being lumped into the general conversation, as I find it somewhat detracts from the spirit of what I was trying to communicate.
I think most can understand where you're coming from, with wanting to inject new fun stuffs into the format. But I feel that the biggest downside to wishes would be Greed...you want all the things, but you can't find the place to put them in your deck. BUT YOU WANT ALL THE THINGS! It feels like it flies in the face of those who also wanted all the things, but made compromises, alternatives, and outright had to say, "Can't do it".
Intentions are indeed important...yours as well as anyone else's. While yours do sound noble, it would be far too easy for someone else to make it completely IGnoble in one manner or another. I am aware that the same could be said of anything in the format(indeed, the game), but some of those ignoble aspects are still expected(hosing mono-color decks with Iona for one).
Forgive me if I'm completely off track, but am I correct in assuming that one of your agendas(if you will) is that you want to play a wacky card in a completely off track deck because you don't have the cards to play a wacky deck with that card? No judgement, because I understand the struggle, but that's what your last post seems to indicate is one aspect.
Thanks for the insight. I have to say I'm pretty taken aback by the negativity of the reactions. Some had very little to do with what I was talking about. You seem to understand where I'm coming from, so thank you!
I like to see wishes as an opportunity to inject some randomness into most decks to increase the fun at the table. I've come to understand that this isn't how most people see it. I really think the best way to play a Wish in a casual game is not to overthink it, both when deciding to put it into the deck and when casting it.
The deck would not really be off-track, but most decks can spare a few "flex-slots" for some fun, spicy inclusions. I was thinking Wishes would fill that role nicely, since it's like having a flex slot that changes every time you cast it!
Do you mean using Mark of Mutiny targetting Zada to give all my creatures a +1/+1 counter and haste? seems decent! Not sure if it's worth it over other slots in the deck, but definitely an interesting card.
I like Temur Battle Rage because it's only two mana, making it easier to combo with a few other pump spells and end the game on the spot. Uncaged Fury is usually better as a standalone card, though.
In general I really like what you've built and will be making a lot of adjustments to my own build. Thank you again! I hope some of my comments were also helpful.
Thanks a lot, Upkeep, and thanks for all the suggestions. Definitely some food for thought. And btw - do you still play your Tatyova, Benthic Druid deck?
I haven't played with Tatyova in a while! There are some really cool additions to the deck that have come up recently, so I will have to go back to it and make some changes. It's a really awesome deck!
One thing I forgot to mention: I always play a copy of Celestial Flare in all my White PDH decks. This is the only card that can get rid of a hexproof general in our colours, as far as I know. Ascended Lawmage and Nightveil Predator are going to be very powerful opposing decks that GW decks won't have many answers to.
I made a few changes to my list based on yours. I still really want to put in Gossamer Chains into the deck (Pauper Maze of Ith that draws cards? Yes.). Benefaction of Rhonas I will eventually find room for as well, but I'm less inclined to include it.
With all of those negatives, let me ask you - what positives would wishes bring to the format?
Thank you for reading my post!
I just want to keep the setting light and fun, you know? I think wishes would bring some sort of impulsiveness to the game that can certainly be healthy if you don't take it too seriously. I think intentions are very important here. I want to play a wish to bring something to the table that no one expects; not even me when I put the card in my deck (that's not to say I wouldn't know what I'm looking for at the time). I hope that makes sense.
Thanks so much for taking the time to post your list! It's so nice to have someone to compare with and talk about choices.
I do have a few suggestions:
I see you aren't running Conviction. That card is such an engine when combined with our commander and is the reason we can draw so many cards over the course of the game. You are playing a few of the other cards like it, but Conviction also pumps power and especially tougness, making it invaluable, in my opinion. I think I would cut Sun Clasp for it, since Clasp bounces the creature which is much worse.
I don't think I would play Afterlife over another enchantment removal spell. It doesn't interact with your commander, is expensive and even leaves the opponent with a flyer. Destroying a Commander also means that they can just recast it again, instead of it sitting on the battlefield, potentially useless. Suppression Bonds is still well worth the 4 mana, in my opinion. The only advantage Afterlife gets is being instant speed.
You have an impressive suite of protection spells. That being said, I think I would play Emerge Unscathed over Ranger's Guile. Colour protection is usually more valuable than hexproof because it does pretty much the same stuff and more. Emerge lets you save your creature and then get in for an unblockable attack on your turn. Or just two turns of unblockable attacks. I think it's well worth the trade for +1/+1. Dawn Charm is also a card I'm very fond of now. It's a Fog, a Protection spell and counters things like Chainer's Edicts or a deadly Rolling Thunder. I think it's definitely worth a spot over something like Ajani's Presence.
In terms of Pump spells, we run pretty much the same gamut, but I see you're not playing Predatory Hunger or Moldervine Cloak. The former is great in multiplayer and lets the creature keep the counters even if the aura is bounced/destroyed. The latter is guarantees you a decently big pump spell (and incidentally card draw) if ever you end up stalled out.
Other than that, I think some of your cards might be better served as a handful of hexproof creatures. Something like Fists of Ironwood is generally inefficient with your game plan and could instead be a naturally evasive Silhana Ledgewalker. Sumala Woodshaper is severely outclassed by so many of your other digging spells that I feel it would be better served as a Primal Huntbeast, who's beefy body makes him resilient to mass removal to begin with and makes him an ideal target for stacking auras.
In general I really like what you've built and will be making a lot of adjustments to my own build. Thank you again! I hope some of my comments were also helpful.
And here I thought this was going to be some happy-go-lucky conversation about flipping through trade binders for random cards. I guess I forgot this was the internet!
All kidding aside, I guess I understand the gut-wrenching and resounding "NO" that seems to be forming about this topic. I think we should also have in our casual spirits the idea of being in a relaxed setting and getting something exciting to bring to the table that you wouldn't usually want to put in your deck, but you happen to have on-hand. This is what I mean by "as intended". Maybe I really need to get that Tree of Redemption that's in my trade binder with Living Wish, but the next game it'll be that Emrakul, the Promised End in my other EDH deck.
I think the important thing when playing these cards casually is not to overthink it. Just cast it, get a card you want nearby and come back. Like most tutors, but more random.
Thanks for the input, rogerandover. I appreciated it a lot! Would you be so kind as to take the time to put up your own list here? I would really like to compare with what you came up with!
I originally wanted to build a lot like you with tons of auras, but as I did my research I found less and less worthwhile enchantments to play. This prompted me to switch into using hexproof creatures. I have yet to test it out and tell you how it goes. My missing cards are still in the mail!
Do you think that the auras you play are all worth their weight over something like Silhana Ledgewalker? Are there any offensive auras that I am missing that you would recommend I add? I am still unsure if I have too many hexproof creatures and should be running more auras instead.
I am running quite a few protection spells, but have found that the best ones are the ones you can play on turns 1 or 2 to allow you to play your commander on turn 3 with protection. Benevolent Bodyguard, Standard Bearer and Angelic Renewel are the key protection spells to have, I think.
I would certainly like to play all the enchantment-digging spells, but had difficulty justifying them because of the lower number of enchantments I run, as you mentioned. Do you also play Vessel of Nascency? I suppose I could also play Commune with the Gods and Benefaction of Ronaswithout having to worry about wiffing. Are these cards that important that you would play them even on top of your commanders' card draw ability? I found that when playing Mesa Enchantress that my hand was quite full, though I did sandbag a lot of Pacifisms. I'm mostly wondering if it would be overkill.
Good point on Lignify. That will definitely make the cut over another Pacifism!
It's been awhile since I've put in any work to this list, but I'm coming back around on it. Has anyone played with Natural Balance lately? It was a card I ran in the past and I think the one or two times I cast it it was alright, but I ended up cutting it. I've been pondering changes to my list and I started thinking about this card again. Is it worthwhile?
I just cast it last night. If you've ever seen it played by the Squandered Resources deck from long-ago Standard, you can see how busted this card can be. The lands you fetch come into play untapped, which actually nets you mana. Things get even better with Lotus Cobra out.
Last night I had Titania out with Zuran Orb. I floated my 6 mana, sacrificed all my lands, played Natural Balance (destroying a bunch of my opponents' in the process), fetched up five new untapped forests, got 6 5/3s, tapped it all (now 7 mana floating), sacrificed it all to Scapeshift (5 more 5/3s), sacrificed 5 more lands (5 more 5/3s), played my Gaea's Cradle for the first time and tapped it for 20 mana and proceeded to win with Greater Good into my finishers. It was gross.
Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves need to find their way into one of these products. Turns out that banding ties a lot of silly Abzan stuff into a nasty package for pauper (Aterlife, Undying, Exalted (leaves you guys to gang-block with banding), Convoke (Hey, you've got all these exalted guys loafing around), Deathtouch (other guy dies, Shield Bearer tanks the damage), Reach + Deathouch)...
I doubt that they'd actually reprint banding in a non-online set, but we've been playtesting the banding guys which got reprinted online and boy do they ever work...
Banding + Undying + Serrated Arrows , I don't even...
Could you explain the synergy of banding and exalted? I don't quite understand.
Seeing as this is a casual format, I was thinking how great it would be to actually use Wish cards (like Living Wish) as they were originally intended in Judgement, where you literally delve through your collection to find a card you own from outside the game and put it in your hand. I can't really thinking of another format where it would be more fair to use this way, personally.
Obviously, a quick check with your own group of friends is in order.
Why aren't more people playing wish cards? It seems like it would be a lot of fun and would be a powerful tutor to add to most decks, yet I see almost no one using them. Their use would also vary depending on what you have on hand. If you are playing at home, you have more options than if you're playing at your friends' place.
You would need more Deserts for Scavenger Grounds to repeatedly wipe graveyards. Sacrifice is a cost, so it would be in your Graveyard by the time the Activated Ability resolves, exiling it.
Thanks, I hadn't realized that. Still worth it? I could also take out Tranquil Thicket for Desert of the Indomitable, but maybe that would be getting a little cute.
Okay! I bit the bullet and finally purchased my own Gaea's Cradle. It's moderately played and en Français, mais c'est pas grave! Tout le monde comprendra de toute façon!
I also took out Treefolk Harbinger to try out Berserk (which I had just lying around for some reason). I'm including it mostly as a 1-mana removal spell, but the ability to both kill an opponent and get rid of the best creature in play for massive blowouts seems really nasty.
My next step is acquiring a Craterhoof Behemoth, which will most likely take the place of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. In the meantime, what are your thoughts between Kamahl and End-Raze Forerunners (of which I also have a copy)? The boars make a slightly better Craterhoof impression, but they don't give me potential land shenanigans like Kamahl does.
Other than that, the only other card I'm unhappy with is Fade into Antiquity. The exile removal is an important way for me to deal with Darksteel Forge or Spine of Ish Sah permanently, but in most cases it just feels underwhelming and overpriced. I am contemplating swapping back into Wave of Vitriol which I also hate, but would be more versatile, even though it doesn't deal with Darksteel forever when facing Daretti and Scrap Mastery. Any advice on this topic? Thanks for the advice on Deglamer/Unravel the AEther!
Last thing I'm contemplating is Scavenger Grounds, being able to repeatably wipe graveyards seems great, but it comes with the drawback of exiling my own graveyard, which might be problematic. Of course, you can always work around your own cards. Any idea what I could cut to try it? I hesitate to take out more forests, as I find myself occasionally pinched on green mana for stuff as it is. What do you feel is the minimum?
To be fair, it seems your meta has gone from one end of the extreme to the other and neither is really preferable. At least, I know I wouldn't want to be in a 3 hour game but I *also* would not want games to end by turn 6 on a frequent basis. Perhaps the shift in the meta was more of an "overcorrection" to games ending too soon? Which of course means going back to those types of decks might be something to avoid.
Is this a concern for your group? Are the games dragging on simply because they want them to last longer compared to the ones that ended on turn 5 or 6? If so, trying to find something in the middle is likely where you want to be. Maybe an aggressive Simic build? This gives you ways to end the game (Tooth and Nail; Craterhoof; etc.) as well as ways to try to stop the board from constantly being wrathed. Selesnya can be similar in that you get Avacyn, Teferi's Protection, Heroic Intervention, etc. to, again, stop wraths.
This is spot-on. The shift has been happening over the last 2 years or so.
This is a concern for us because we have limited time to play every week. we have a 4-6 hour window to get as many games in as possible, and lately we haven't been able to finish more than one game in an evening. Something more in the middle would be preferable.
If fogs are a problem, red seems the way to go. Gruul, Boros, or maybe Izzet (though not as much) can provide aggressive strategies along with ways to get through fogs (red has a bunch of "damage can't be prevented" effects for example). Green gives you Heroic Intervention and White gives you Boros Charm and Teferi's Protection. These all ensure your board sticks around.
Green also gives you toolbox elements and Bane of Progress. I mention that because I assume at least some "lock pieces" are artifacts or enchantments and Bane can be useful to get rid of them (assuming you can find a way to land a 6 mana creature amid the lock pieces).
And, as you mentioned, combo is another answer. And it doesn't have to be infinite combos or a deck dedicated to a combo. I personally don't like infinite combos (it sounds like you don't either) but adding one or two into your deck(s) can help end the games quicker. Tooth and Nail, which I mentioned above, can be used to "combo" out a table without it necessarily being an infinite combo. There are other ways to use combos that are not infinite if you choose to stay away from infinites, but they are a resource you can use to help end the current game and start the next one.
Gonna be honest, I'm the guy running the fogs... I am definitely part of the problem and intend to change...
Having more proactive answers seems nice, and I especially like that I was somewhat on track with the idea of combo, though not dedicating a deck to it seems wise. Just out of curiosity, using only green cards, what would Tooth and Nail fetch to end the game? I imagine the first card is Craterhoof Behemoth, but what's the second?
I am going to agree with avoiding building hard combo but the semi combo of the "big play" is what it seems like your meta needs. Typically what I feel a good commander game is a bunch of set up into a series of "big plays" which all get answered until one doesn't.
I am going to agree with the play red idea, either red or green utilising effects such as Craterhoof Behemoth that board stall breaking power. But to be honest any colour can do it. Black can rise of the dark realms for example.
If it weren't for the Fog deck I'd of suggested Zirilan of the claw all he can do is big plays, but playing against fog sucks.
Thanks for the great suggestions. I really think it's those "big plays" that our current decks are lacking to close out games and move on.
I'll have to do some research and find something. My friends are all very open to suggestions for their decks and take criticism very well, which is nice. We can always talk about how our games are going.
we ran into the same problem in our group and we've tried a few different things over the years
we tried 2v2, it was horrible. every deck turned into time warps but at least the games ended fast. newer people hated it (with good reason) and it did tremendous damage to our edh night as we couldn't retain any new blood. two strong players would be oppressive, and if you ended up partnered with someone not as good, or with a weaker deck, forget it you might as well not play.
This is really good to know, thank you for sharing. I was planning on suggesting 2v2, but will avoid it now.
what has naturally happened since we gave up on that was that yes, people started including more ways to WIN. we would discuss things, we still do, and ultimately the consensus is that... well the game has to end.
combo helps give the deck a goal and speed that end along. almost everyone packs something. maybe not many combos, but a few, just to close out games. ultimately we've seen interactivity increase. what happens is that guy is going to combo, so i need to run ways to stop him, i'm going to combo, so i need to run ways to protect it. the games become much more dynamic than 30 craw wurms lining up or sitting there fogging every turn. we tend to play 4-6 games a night now instead of 1-2.
new players bitch, they moan and complain still, but some of them join the discussion and actually start pushing their decks. i've seen more silver bullets pop up lately than i ever have before, and the games where everyone is on the same page become intense but don't carry on all night.
what happens a lot when you start running things just to try and stop their durdliness is that they just run more ways to maintain it. if you want to shift things you have to push a different angle.
the problem with combo isn't that its cheap or lame or anything like that, its actually that it becomes oppressive in a group where no one changes their deck to embrace the fact that it exists. when you find ways to combo out and not get mired in durdletown, but your opponents don't bother to adapt.
This is all great advice and pretty much in line with what a lot of people and myself are thinking. We should all be packing some sort of inevitability that allows us to win. I'm really craving that dymanic game that we've been lacking over the last few weeks.
I trust that my friends will all adapt well to change; we always do. It's just been a particularly rough patch these days. Thanks for the great advice and insight from your personal experience!
Recently, I (or we) have run into a problem where our games just don't end. We literally durdle each other into a standstill and 3-hour games are becoming the norm. This is in part because of recent additions to the metagame, such as Celestial Kirin Turbo-Fog, Ishkanah, Grafwidow Spiders, Lord Windgrace "Lands Durdle", Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Lifegain Control and Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca Counter-Fish.
It wasn't always this way. Games used to end on turn 5 or 6 when I was playing Rakdos, Lord of Riots versus Kaalia of the Vast or Animar, Soul of Elements. Now these decks get chewed up by board wipes, fogs and lock pieces and there is no one left to progress the game.
So, what's next?
We aren't the kind of playgroup to ban anything or tell people what to bring to the table. Everyone gets to play what they want.
We have one friend who's been winning a lot lately because he runs 2-card combos like Zealous Conscripts/Kiki-Jiki or Sanguine Bond/ Exquisite Blood. I personally don't like running them because I don't like how they play, but don't have a problem playing against them. This got me thinking: Is this the answer to a durdle-fest? Should I/we start running some combos to simply end games on the spot? It still requires skill and timing to do so and could help steer us into a new direction without having to revamp completely what we bring to the table.
Good change! Looks a lot more stylish. Although it feels kinda like Facebook and Twitter at the same time. Why do all community websites just imitate the big social media guys?
My favorite card is Deftblade Elite. Although I'm not generally a White player, this card is just so sweet; he has won me games. Whether he's killing a provoked creature every turn with lots of pump like Honor the Pure or Catapult Squad, or he's getting a dangerous blocker out of the way so my other creatures can get through (and lives to do it again!),he gets the job done! Just an all-round good card. and a common 1-drop, too!
I really like your introduction! Very concise and explains where the archetype comes from.
Is Cadaverous Knight really a core creature? It barely looks playable, to me anyways.
Maybe comment on each creature and specify in what style it belongs to (control or aggro), so that we can get a better idea of where they belong. You can also include ''shells'' of decks, in other words cards that must be run in order to make the deck function.
A notable exclusion from your otherwise rather full list is Nameless Inversion. This card is a complete beast in this deck, as it's recurable removal, with cards like Ghoulcaller's Chant and Ghoul Raiser.
Bonesplitter probably deserves a mention, as do other pump spells like Unholy Strength (there are many variants available).
I think Top 8 and Video sections are wishful thinking, as there are no sanctioned paper pauper tournaments. If you can get your hands on some MTGO videos playing Zombies, that might be a useful tool.
I suggest a section on Peasant (five uncommons max). It doesn't require a much bigger metagaming knowledge, just another card search. There are lots of uncommon candidates for Zombies.
A brief (or very detailed) matchup breakdown and analysis would be very appreciated. I like to test against many of the top decks in Pauper to see where mine stands, but I understand it's not possible for everyone, considering play-mates and time.
Overall, I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for playable cards, and cutting some of the more "fringe" ones is probably a good idea (you can also use the rating system to determine the value of each card to the deck). But it's a really good start! I look forward to seeing the rest!
I understand that. I don't really appreciate being lumped into the general conversation, as I find it somewhat detracts from the spirit of what I was trying to communicate.
Thanks for the insight. I have to say I'm pretty taken aback by the negativity of the reactions. Some had very little to do with what I was talking about. You seem to understand where I'm coming from, so thank you!
I like to see wishes as an opportunity to inject some randomness into most decks to increase the fun at the table. I've come to understand that this isn't how most people see it. I really think the best way to play a Wish in a casual game is not to overthink it, both when deciding to put it into the deck and when casting it.
The deck would not really be off-track, but most decks can spare a few "flex-slots" for some fun, spicy inclusions. I was thinking Wishes would fill that role nicely, since it's like having a flex slot that changes every time you cast it!
Do you mean using Mark of Mutiny targetting Zada to give all my creatures a +1/+1 counter and haste? seems decent! Not sure if it's worth it over other slots in the deck, but definitely an interesting card.
I like Temur Battle Rage because it's only two mana, making it easier to combo with a few other pump spells and end the game on the spot. Uncaged Fury is usually better as a standalone card, though.
Also, check this out!
I haven't played with Tatyova in a while! There are some really cool additions to the deck that have come up recently, so I will have to go back to it and make some changes. It's a really awesome deck!
One thing I forgot to mention: I always play a copy of Celestial Flare in all my White PDH decks. This is the only card that can get rid of a hexproof general in our colours, as far as I know. Ascended Lawmage and Nightveil Predator are going to be very powerful opposing decks that GW decks won't have many answers to.
I made a few changes to my list based on yours. I still really want to put in Gossamer Chains into the deck (Pauper Maze of Ith that draws cards? Yes.). Benefaction of Rhonas I will eventually find room for as well, but I'm less inclined to include it.
Thank you for reading my post!
I just want to keep the setting light and fun, you know? I think wishes would bring some sort of impulsiveness to the game that can certainly be healthy if you don't take it too seriously. I think intentions are very important here. I want to play a wish to bring something to the table that no one expects; not even me when I put the card in my deck (that's not to say I wouldn't know what I'm looking for at the time). I hope that makes sense.
Also, this got merged with a 3-year-old thread?
I do have a few suggestions:
I see you aren't running Conviction. That card is such an engine when combined with our commander and is the reason we can draw so many cards over the course of the game. You are playing a few of the other cards like it, but Conviction also pumps power and especially tougness, making it invaluable, in my opinion. I think I would cut Sun Clasp for it, since Clasp bounces the creature which is much worse.
I don't think I would play Afterlife over another enchantment removal spell. It doesn't interact with your commander, is expensive and even leaves the opponent with a flyer. Destroying a Commander also means that they can just recast it again, instead of it sitting on the battlefield, potentially useless. Suppression Bonds is still well worth the 4 mana, in my opinion. The only advantage Afterlife gets is being instant speed.
You have an impressive suite of protection spells. That being said, I think I would play Emerge Unscathed over Ranger's Guile. Colour protection is usually more valuable than hexproof because it does pretty much the same stuff and more. Emerge lets you save your creature and then get in for an unblockable attack on your turn. Or just two turns of unblockable attacks. I think it's well worth the trade for +1/+1. Dawn Charm is also a card I'm very fond of now. It's a Fog, a Protection spell and counters things like Chainer's Edicts or a deadly Rolling Thunder. I think it's definitely worth a spot over something like Ajani's Presence.
In terms of Pump spells, we run pretty much the same gamut, but I see you're not playing Predatory Hunger or Moldervine Cloak. The former is great in multiplayer and lets the creature keep the counters even if the aura is bounced/destroyed. The latter is guarantees you a decently big pump spell (and incidentally card draw) if ever you end up stalled out.
Other than that, I think some of your cards might be better served as a handful of hexproof creatures. Something like Fists of Ironwood is generally inefficient with your game plan and could instead be a naturally evasive Silhana Ledgewalker. Sumala Woodshaper is severely outclassed by so many of your other digging spells that I feel it would be better served as a Primal Huntbeast, who's beefy body makes him resilient to mass removal to begin with and makes him an ideal target for stacking auras.
In general I really like what you've built and will be making a lot of adjustments to my own build. Thank you again! I hope some of my comments were also helpful.
All kidding aside, I guess I understand the gut-wrenching and resounding "NO" that seems to be forming about this topic. I think we should also have in our casual spirits the idea of being in a relaxed setting and getting something exciting to bring to the table that you wouldn't usually want to put in your deck, but you happen to have on-hand. This is what I mean by "as intended". Maybe I really need to get that Tree of Redemption that's in my trade binder with Living Wish, but the next game it'll be that Emrakul, the Promised End in my other EDH deck.
I think the important thing when playing these cards casually is not to overthink it. Just cast it, get a card you want nearby and come back. Like most tutors, but more random.
I originally wanted to build a lot like you with tons of auras, but as I did my research I found less and less worthwhile enchantments to play. This prompted me to switch into using hexproof creatures. I have yet to test it out and tell you how it goes. My missing cards are still in the mail!
Do you think that the auras you play are all worth their weight over something like Silhana Ledgewalker? Are there any offensive auras that I am missing that you would recommend I add? I am still unsure if I have too many hexproof creatures and should be running more auras instead.
I am running quite a few protection spells, but have found that the best ones are the ones you can play on turns 1 or 2 to allow you to play your commander on turn 3 with protection. Benevolent Bodyguard, Standard Bearer and Angelic Renewel are the key protection spells to have, I think.
I would certainly like to play all the enchantment-digging spells, but had difficulty justifying them because of the lower number of enchantments I run, as you mentioned. Do you also play Vessel of Nascency? I suppose I could also play Commune with the Gods and Benefaction of Ronaswithout having to worry about wiffing. Are these cards that important that you would play them even on top of your commanders' card draw ability? I found that when playing Mesa Enchantress that my hand was quite full, though I did sandbag a lot of Pacifisms. I'm mostly wondering if it would be overkill.
Good point on Lignify. That will definitely make the cut over another Pacifism!
I just cast it last night. If you've ever seen it played by the Squandered Resources deck from long-ago Standard, you can see how busted this card can be. The lands you fetch come into play untapped, which actually nets you mana. Things get even better with Lotus Cobra out.
Last night I had Titania out with Zuran Orb. I floated my 6 mana, sacrificed all my lands, played Natural Balance (destroying a bunch of my opponents' in the process), fetched up five new untapped forests, got 6 5/3s, tapped it all (now 7 mana floating), sacrificed it all to Scapeshift (5 more 5/3s), sacrificed 5 more lands (5 more 5/3s), played my Gaea's Cradle for the first time and tapped it for 20 mana and proceeded to win with Greater Good into my finishers. It was gross.
Could you explain the synergy of banding and exalted? I don't quite understand.
Obviously, a quick check with your own group of friends is in order.
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about "wish boards". They are very clear about this.
Why aren't more people playing wish cards? It seems like it would be a lot of fun and would be a powerful tutor to add to most decks, yet I see almost no one using them. Their use would also vary depending on what you have on hand. If you are playing at home, you have more options than if you're playing at your friends' place.
Thanks, I hadn't realized that. Still worth it? I could also take out Tranquil Thicket for Desert of the Indomitable, but maybe that would be getting a little cute.
I also took out Treefolk Harbinger to try out Berserk (which I had just lying around for some reason). I'm including it mostly as a 1-mana removal spell, but the ability to both kill an opponent and get rid of the best creature in play for massive blowouts seems really nasty.
My next step is acquiring a Craterhoof Behemoth, which will most likely take the place of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. In the meantime, what are your thoughts between Kamahl and End-Raze Forerunners (of which I also have a copy)? The boars make a slightly better Craterhoof impression, but they don't give me potential land shenanigans like Kamahl does.
Other than that, the only other card I'm unhappy with is Fade into Antiquity. The exile removal is an important way for me to deal with Darksteel Forge or Spine of Ish Sah permanently, but in most cases it just feels underwhelming and overpriced. I am contemplating swapping back into Wave of Vitriol which I also hate, but would be more versatile, even though it doesn't deal with Darksteel forever when facing Daretti and Scrap Mastery. Any advice on this topic?Thanks for the advice on Deglamer/Unravel the AEther!Last thing I'm contemplating is Scavenger Grounds, being able to repeatably wipe graveyards seems great, but it comes with the drawback of exiling my own graveyard, which might be problematic. Of course, you can always work around your own cards. Any idea what I could cut to try it? I hesitate to take out more forests, as I find myself occasionally pinched on green mana for stuff as it is. What do you feel is the minimum?
Here's where I'm at now:
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
Creatures (17)
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Grazing Gladehart
1 Tilling Treefolk
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Garruk's Packleader
1 Duplicant
1 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Bane of Progress
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Thunderfoot Baloth
1 Spearbreaker Behemoth
1 Terastodon
Lands (41)
16 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Bant Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Naya Panorama
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Petrified Field
1 Dust Bowl
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Mosswort Bridge
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
Instants/ Sorceries (22)
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Berserk
1 Constant Mists
1 Edge of Autumn
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Unravel the AEther
1 Beast Within
1 Harrow
1 Realms Uncharted
1 Natural Affinity
1 Splendid Reclamation
1 Triumph of the Hordes
1 Natural Balance
1 Scapeshift
1 Overwhelming Stampede
1 Praetor's Counsel
Artifacts/ Enchantments/ Planeswalkers (19)
1 Zuran Orb
1 Burgeoning
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Exploration
1 Sol Ring
1 Fortitude
1 Gaea's Touch
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Lignify
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elemental Bond
1 Kavu Lair
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Sunstone
1 Hall of Gemstone
1 Greater Good
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
This is spot-on. The shift has been happening over the last 2 years or so.
This is a concern for us because we have limited time to play every week. we have a 4-6 hour window to get as many games in as possible, and lately we haven't been able to finish more than one game in an evening. Something more in the middle would be preferable.
Gonna be honest, I'm the guy running the fogs...
Having more proactive answers seems nice, and I especially like that I was somewhat on track with the idea of combo, though not dedicating a deck to it seems wise. Just out of curiosity, using only green cards, what would Tooth and Nail fetch to end the game? I imagine the first card is Craterhoof Behemoth, but what's the second?
Maybe my Fog deck will play Divine Intervention... or not.
Thanks for the great suggestions. I really think it's those "big plays" that our current decks are lacking to close out games and move on.
I'll have to do some research and find something. My friends are all very open to suggestions for their decks and take criticism very well, which is nice. We can always talk about how our games are going.
This is really good to know, thank you for sharing. I was planning on suggesting 2v2, but will avoid it now.
This is all great advice and pretty much in line with what a lot of people and myself are thinking. We should all be packing some sort of inevitability that allows us to win. I'm really craving that dymanic game that we've been lacking over the last few weeks.
I trust that my friends will all adapt well to change; we always do. It's just been a particularly rough patch these days. Thanks for the great advice and insight from your personal experience!
It wasn't always this way. Games used to end on turn 5 or 6 when I was playing Rakdos, Lord of Riots versus Kaalia of the Vast or Animar, Soul of Elements. Now these decks get chewed up by board wipes, fogs and lock pieces and there is no one left to progress the game.
So, what's next?
We aren't the kind of playgroup to ban anything or tell people what to bring to the table. Everyone gets to play what they want.
We have one friend who's been winning a lot lately because he runs 2-card combos like Zealous Conscripts/Kiki-Jiki or Sanguine Bond/ Exquisite Blood. I personally don't like running them because I don't like how they play, but don't have a problem playing against them. This got me thinking: Is this the answer to a durdle-fest? Should I/we start running some combos to simply end games on the spot? It still requires skill and timing to do so and could help steer us into a new direction without having to revamp completely what we bring to the table.
Any thoughts?