One of the many creatures they've printed that would be infinitely more interesting if they halved the cost and made it a 1/1 instead of making you pay for a big body.
I don't think you can add 6 +1/+1 counters, on a flicker body, for 4 mana. Even if its a 1/1
This line of reasoning makes no sense. First, it implies the ban list changed is easy and alleviates this scenario, neither of which is true.
I mean... banning Sol Ring is a pretty good way to stop Sol Ring from ruining games. Sounds like it solves the scenario pretty efficiently.
What a ridiculous reduction of the conversation being had. There are at least 2 or 3 other cards that easily sub into those scenarios with the same outcome.
Why? I feel like 40 life started as a way to make games long and epic, and now it's rotting away at our foundations because it pushes people who aren't deliberately avoiding them into more and more efficient wincons, which are less and less interesting. A good idea in theory, ruined by human nature.
Then we just disagree about what 40 life does. I see it as a buffer so you don't have to have blockers T2 or just get zerged to death. You can pop a fetchland, or use a painland T3, and not have to worry if thats your death 3 turns from now. I think 30 would be a fine adjustment to 'tune up' aggro / midrange.
But that wont stop Combo from being the most efficient.
I did, an I reiterate my question: talking about how the "descent into infinite" mentality is bad for the game is a nice exercise of rhetoric, but what would you folks actually DO about it?
Convince other people its not where the game should be. The other option I see is a hundred card ban list, and no one wants that.
2 months and a few other precons experience later, I came very close to a full Kess Storm deck sans the mana base. The reaction of players at that LGS? "Get out of here with that tryharding pile". This shocked me a bit, surely these same players running one shot voltron decks or Craterhoof Behemoth wins wouldn't be that dim to not see how easily an Isochron Scepter win turn 8 achieved the same effect at the same speed? Fast forward to now and I still don't see Sheldon and others' arguments against infinite wincons as anything other than an old-guard grumbling that kids nowadays get bored of smacking plastic dinosaurs against each other for 2+ hours.
Thats the thing, I don't see what Sheldon is saying as grumbling about winning with combo. If you are about the same power level, around the same turn I don't see an issue with that per se. Now if you are tutoring for combo pieces and winning around T8, I may ask you to play something else. Another issue is Dramatic Scepter can all happen in one turn, those other items take setup, so some folks see that as not the same power level.
The thing you do to fix combos is lower the starting life total. When winning via damage is more feasible, combo will cease to be the only option to compete at powerful tables, and groups can "degenerate" without all becoming combo focused out of necessity.
I dont think the difference between 90 and 120 makes this happen. And anything under 30 is going to be to low to me in EDH. YMMV
You are responsible for cultivating the environment you want to play in. Be a poaitive influence rather than a cry baby who takes its ball amd goes home when it doesn't get its way. Cut toxic people from your life if they are unrrasonable.
If people refuse to be a part of the power level the majority wants, is refusing to play with them 'taking your ball and going home'?
So my conclusion is this: some feel combos are a problem, and some feel the oppressive decks that would be nigh impossible to bring down without combos are the real problem... But regardless of which side you're on, in the end the fact of the matter is that a solution cannot be found without greatly diminishing what the format is about. So this discussion is essentially destined to go nowhere.
You just said in that post up there that magic cards are not designed to combo.
It is one of the most factually inaccurate things I have ever seen anyone say about this game.
Harp on that if you like. Lets actually talk about EDH:
Infinite combo is not a pillar of EDH, it was fairly recently the RC started to unban combo pieces. The creators are speaking out about it negatively. The RC has always been in that general vicinity in regards to infinite combo.
Making out like this is some new twist is intellectually dishonest.
Taleran has, by highlighting some absurd claims. Cards interacting with one another in synergistic ways, which is the core notion of a combo, is a central element of this game and its design, and always has been. Regardless of finite or infinite, claiming that MTG does not have the ideas of combo in its core design seems willfully misguided.
I didnt say that, which is part of my issue with implying something not easily deciphered.I said infinite combos are not a pillar of EDH. I think that is backed up by both the creators saying it should not be option one all the time, and some used to actually be banned out of the format.
Trying to smash synergy and infinite combo into the same idea is "willfully misguided", as someone once said.
That still doesn't make sense because combo is one of the pillar archetypes of the format and of magic the gathering and magic cards are deigned to interact together in combos.
Combo isn't one of the pillars of EDH. There was a time when strong combo pieces were outright banned. People can make a lot of arguments in favor of combo, but that surely isn't one of them.
Again, the point of the post was about unknown groups (LGS, MagicFest, etc) and how those have deteriorated to such a degree. It has not always been like this. I had the absolute worst game of EDH I have ever played this last weekend at MagicFest Seattle.
And cards obviously are not designed to combo together, they banned it out of Standard recently. Yes many cards within the decades do so, and I honestly get why people play them: Some games need to end.
I think its socially lacking to pub stomp people because you know they are playing '75%' and likely wont be able to stop a combo with counter back-up.
People seem to be purposely missing his point. He didn't say 'don't play combo' or anything that approached that. His issue was with going straight for combo every time as option #1, perhaps your only win-con. And again, only in an unknown group, where such a thing should have social consequences.
People straight up straw-manning his stance is a sad thing on MTGS.
It is completely absurd that I need to have a five minute conversation with a group of strangers setting up a social contract that could easily be solved by a more comprehensive and logically consistent banlist. I'm not upset that I lost those two games, I'm mildly irritated that none of the three games were particularly fun.
This line of reasoning makes no sense. First, it implies the ban list changed is easy and alleviates this scenario, neither of which is true. Second it implies someone else should make people play cards some people don't care for so they can have a better game instead of taking any personal responsibility.
I think some fast mana should be banned as well, but that's not some magic bullet that makes games like this not happen.
While we're talking about two-color budget, could someone please explain to me why even in two-color decks, WotC includes vivids? They're strictly worse than painlands in two-color decks. Just Saiyan.
They are not strictly worse, as you could be too low on life to use colored mana from painlands.
But there are at least 5 in each color pair that just CIPT and provide both colors. Those are strictly better.
I don't think you can add 6 +1/+1 counters, on a flicker body, for 4 mana. Even if its a 1/1
But that wont stop Combo from being the most efficient.
Thats the thing, I don't see what Sheldon is saying as grumbling about winning with combo. If you are about the same power level, around the same turn I don't see an issue with that per se. Now if you are tutoring for combo pieces and winning around T8, I may ask you to play something else. Another issue is Dramatic Scepter can all happen in one turn, those other items take setup, so some folks see that as not the same power level.
I dont think the difference between 90 and 120 makes this happen. And anything under 30 is going to be to low to me in EDH. YMMV
If people refuse to be a part of the power level the majority wants, is refusing to play with them 'taking your ball and going home'?
Infinite combo is not a pillar of EDH, it was fairly recently the RC started to unban combo pieces. The creators are speaking out about it negatively. The RC has always been in that general vicinity in regards to infinite combo.
Making out like this is some new twist is intellectually dishonest.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/811850-splice-and-storm
I didnt say that, which is part of my issue with implying something not easily deciphered.I said infinite combos are not a pillar of EDH. I think that is backed up by both the creators saying it should not be option one all the time, and some used to actually be banned out of the format.
Trying to smash synergy and infinite combo into the same idea is "willfully misguided", as someone once said.
Combo isn't one of the pillars of EDH. There was a time when strong combo pieces were outright banned. People can make a lot of arguments in favor of combo, but that surely isn't one of them.
Again, the point of the post was about unknown groups (LGS, MagicFest, etc) and how those have deteriorated to such a degree. It has not always been like this. I had the absolute worst game of EDH I have ever played this last weekend at MagicFest Seattle.
And cards obviously are not designed to combo together, they banned it out of Standard recently. Yes many cards within the decades do so, and I honestly get why people play them: Some games need to end.
I think its socially lacking to pub stomp people because you know they are playing '75%' and likely wont be able to stop a combo with counter back-up.
People straight up straw-manning his stance is a sad thing on MTGS.
I think some fast mana should be banned as well, but that's not some magic bullet that makes games like this not happen.
But there are at least 5 in each color pair that just CIPT and provide both colors. Those are strictly better.
Vivids can get bent outside budget 4/5 color.