I dont think Zur should be banned but him swinging is a draw 7 most of the time.
I would be very disappointed if they banned kiki considering he is a ton of fun on his own with just any CitP effect and just a lot of value. EDIT: Perhaps kiki should be the next poll.
I do not think Zur is eally on the block. The main issue I see with Kiki is you either have to avoid other great cards Like Conscripts or Resto Angel, or not go infinite when you could. Either seems pretty bad
Also I was not calling anybody a "whiner" I was simply make an observation about the human condition.
And yes everthing has an answer is a great argument for example. Tetsuo is a great answer to Zur because he is one less mana than Zur all thing beging equal (because their colors are almost the same trading red for white meaning still no great land acceleration) Tetsuo hits the board first and can Kill zur before he gets shrouded.
I was speaking to the group, more than one person use the term 'whining'.
Doc it seems you advocate no ban list. That is just a silly discussion to have, the ban list is not going away. Spend time talking about cards that are on point for discussion.
T/N has a lot of great uses that do not win the game immediatly. However I can see why people want it banned, it really can create undesirable game states in my opinion. I do not think the RC will share that, but they are looking at Kiki Jiki, which I feel is less bannable.
Not bad good news is if he went and got Necro he didn't get vanishing which is a pain also. wait for him to pay life then grip the necro. I just like watching there face when you do it.
'Answers exists' is a terrible argument for or against banning any card(s). Every card in Magic has multiple answers, does that mean we are cool with Limited Resources and Karakas? Of course not.
And calling people whiners and telling people to play better is a sad way to counter their argument as well. Discuss the card on its merits and leave the personal stuff out of it.
Zur is such a good general if I was about banning card there might be a case of him to get the boot as a general (but it is not my way) I will howere have a hinder,Spell Crumple, and / or Chaos Warp ready for him.
What happens when he lands turn 3 and you don't have one? Once he has shroud, good luck.
But I do believe it's the best win con in green and possibly the format. Feel free to post other cards that for 9 mana can just win you the game with out any other conditions. I'm having a hard time thinking of any.
What percentage of games do you see end with that card? I probably do not play as much as you, but I have only seen it once. We asked the guy to change decks, and all was cool.
Right, there are cards that accidentally combo with Palinchron, but you don't run him in the first place unless you intend for him to combo with SOMETHING in your deck.
Compare to Kiki. The standard use of Kiki is to get extra use of ETB triggers while bashing face with extra guys.
Do we really expect the RC to take 'expected use' into account for whether or not to ban or unban a card? I don't want to run into 'fair use' again, but that seems to get ugly in a hurry.
I hate that Sharahzad is banned but my personal desire is second to the health of the format. This doesn't change that I will whine a whole lot that Un-Cards are banned.
I think uncards would be fun, the issue is there are some cards that just do not work. The health of the format has to reign there as well. I would be all for a few being unbanned if they do work within the rules.
I'm just kinda surprised that Kiki-Jiki has caught onto their radar for this reason, while a card such as Palinchron has not.
It sounds like the issue is that Kiki accidently breaks so many cards, it is pervasive. Palinchron is used for infinite mana, but people do it on purpose. I am not sure I love that reasoning, but that sounds to me like where it is coming from.
I don't think he said anything about winning on turn 3. What he said was, if you're able to get all the cards out of the deck you built (i.e. draw cards) and those cards can't win you the game, then you've done something wrong with deckbuilding.
Gotcha. It was right after someone said turn 3, and winnig that turn or dying. My mistake
I feel like aside from koko the banlist is fine at the moment edh us fun it's growing and most pods enjoy Thier Games in my experience.
It is pretty clear you want quick Spike games that last 10 turns or less, which leads to a small ban list. I think the format should go a little more casual than that. I agree the next Sheldon update will be great.
Tooth and nail is a problem that's just going to get worse. Nobody ever plays it "fairly". It always gets a combo or the two best creatures In the deck.
Isn't getting your two best creatures a fair use if it does not get an infinite combo?
I have no issue with T/N getting the axe, but then we run into Kiki and Defense of the Heart rapily. I don't think anyone wants a 50 card ban list, but a few things seem like its time to go.
I have never seen trade secrets played in my hundreds of EDH games. Maybe people think it is too powerful, or we are bad. Either could be the case.
This is one of the reasons why I think threads like this are so unproductive.
If you ban Time Stretch, Tooth and Nail, or Kiki-Jiki, I think you ruin EDH
That seems a little 'sky is falling'. If you removed only those 3 cards I think it would be a mistake, but it won't be the end of EDH. People have a good time playing cards, they will adjust.
Now if it turns into a 100 card roatating quarterly ban list, THAT could kill it
Doc it seems you advocate no ban list. That is just a silly discussion to have, the ban list is not going away. Spend time talking about cards that are on point for discussion.
T/N has a lot of great uses that do not win the game immediatly. However I can see why people want it banned, it really can create undesirable game states in my opinion. I do not think the RC will share that, but they are looking at Kiki Jiki, which I feel is less bannable.
Why? They still get the cards they paid for.
And calling people whiners and telling people to play better is a sad way to counter their argument as well. Discuss the card on its merits and leave the personal stuff out of it.
What happens when he lands turn 3 and you don't have one? Once he has shroud, good luck.
It sounds like the issue is that Kiki accidently breaks so many cards, it is pervasive. Palinchron is used for infinite mana, but people do it on purpose. I am not sure I love that reasoning, but that sounds to me like where it is coming from.
I have no issue with T/N getting the axe, but then we run into Kiki and Defense of the Heart rapily. I don't think anyone wants a 50 card ban list, but a few things seem like its time to go.
I have never seen trade secrets played in my hundreds of EDH games. Maybe people think it is too powerful, or we are bad. Either could be the case.
Now if it turns into a 100 card roatating quarterly ban list, THAT could kill it