Problem with Prohibit is that even at its best, you are only trading even in mana. That doesn't really get you anywhere. Furthermore, being able to counter Tron's payoff cards is important
I see your point. I am currently running it in the Spell Snare slot, which has been underwhelming from time to time, especially when drawn later in the game becoming very situational. Prohibit on the other hand has the upside of hitting more (despite the higher cmc ofc).
Hey guys, what is your opinion on Prohibit? Currently testing it out as it is able to hit relevant spells (e.g. discard, stirrings, sylvan scrying, liliana,...).
I would say Tron is a good MU for us, or at least slightly favorable.
As chaos021 said, game 1 is tough. I play vs. Tron nearly every week at FNM and I have lost 99% of pre-board games. FOr this reason I am running 2 Ceremonious Rejection, 2 Unmoored Ego, Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction in the SB paired with 3 Field of Ruin main. What you REALLY need versus Tron post board is a faster clock (and with faster I mean faster than Teferi/Jace). Here, I think Vendilion Clique is the weapon of choice due to the "discard" effect.
Oh and one more tip based on my experiences so far. You really have to hurry. Out of 10 games, around 8 games have been a draw due to time-out, although I had the win on board or in hand. Because of that, I sometimes even start to disrupt them early, countering Ancient Stirrings, Chromatic Stars and so on to slow them down and start hitting with my clock fast.
In summary, the MU gets much better post-board with better clocks and more disruption. But have an eye on the round timer and don't hesitate to scoop the first game to gain you more time!
I am currently giving Kaya, Orzhov Usurper a bigger focus, especially in combination with the new Kaya's Guile (both PW and Guile are 2-ofs in my current list). She is naturally good in my local meta and she gives you another angle of attack. In more cases than I expected, her -5 is deadly, now greatly supported by the Guile's exile GY mode. I think she is pretty underrated atm.
Traditionally speaking, the deck has never wanted mainboard discard because you're trying to get to turn 20 before winning with rev > zenith.
Things are a little bit different these days, but fundamentally, you are still trying to play a long game.
The nature of playing a pile of lands over everyone else in the format means you need to draw that many more cards in order to balance out on interaction for their threats.
The more cards you add that neither draw cards nor (reliably) answer something, the more you stress the card advantage you already have.
The nature of planeswalkers means that discard is probably better now than its ever been, but you are still fundamentally trying to play a long game, which discard doesn't work well with, not to mention the fact that thoughtseize causes lifeloss (while iok/duress miss a lot of important things we're scared of), discard doesnt require them to spend mana, and lets them spend their turn still deploying a threat, and of course the fact that a lot of the format is simply not that weak to discard, especially discard thats not on turn 1/2.
Its better in the board because its functional (but not great) in a lot of matchups (shadow, tron, etc) where some of our interaction is very bad (cryptic command, supreme verdict) so making the swap lets us keep the same amount of interaction post board.
This 100%. In my humble opinion it is always preferrable to hold up mana for your counterspells. Thus, you do not want to "waste" mana in the early turns just for taking one card from their hand. You cannot fight their top deck this way. Given we are a slow deck, it is close to meaningless taking a card from their hand since they can redraw easily. Oh, and it is an even worse topdeck later in the game. In this phase you want to be using your Cryptics and PWs IMO.
Why am I the only one who's not super impressed with Blast Zone? It's so inefficient to kill anything that doesn't have 1-CMC
I find them pretty greedy, too. It's a good card no doubt, and a great sweeper/removal the opponent can't interact with (man I have lost so many matches vs. a resolved Liliana...). However, I totally dislike it in a 3 color deck where you want to support cryptics, charms, logic knots and so on. Due to that I even considered cutting Field of Ruin, but it is a necessary evil I think (to have at least some game vs. Tron and Valakut).
So I'm trying to get back into modern again since I stopped playing quite a while back. I had played this deck but last time I played fatal push had just come out. What is the current stock list for this meta?
YOu might start from something like this: Esper Control
I mean, those 4 random cards could be Jace, Snapcaster, and any other 2... plus a Teferi. So what if they put Teferi in a solo pile.
I just wanted to make the point that there might be occasions where we cannot control what pile to pick cuz we are pretty much locked into one or the other. We have to be careful what to bin (and FoF forces you to bin something) cuz we can't get it back.
However I also see its potential (as mentioned above) and its power. I guess it needs some rigor testing.
I really love this card, played it for ages in 1v1 Commander. Thus I was really excited when it got reprinted and I initially cut an Esper Charm for it.
But the more I think of it... Imagine you flip over 4 random cards and a Teferi (which is my main wincon and I'm playing two right now). I can imagine many cases in which the opponent sets up a pile with Teferi and one with the rest, pretty much forcing you to pick Teferi. That can't feel good for a 4 mana investment...
I imagine it might be somewhat close to God's_Shadow's list because baby-jace is great with discard (and a generally more sorcery-speed-centered game plan).
Yeah, that might be a way to go. The inclusion of 1-2 Dreadbore could also be a thing with regard to the upcoming PW-heavy set.
Oh, the reason for me why I am not playing GDS over Control is that I simply don't want to. GDS plays a totally different game of magic, with its ups and downs of course. In my case however, I just want to play Control even though it might not be the "strongest" Grixis deck right now.
I feel that the whole debate on Dovin's Veto might incline us to pack some discard again. I have been waiving them in the past, but right now I feel that some Inquisitions (or even Duress in the SB) might bring some benefits. IN addition, these cards IMO represent the black color identity pretty well, so I enjoy playing them.
Oh and on the Countersquall matter: I am currently running Gods_Shadow's list including Squalls and Ionize main. The damage really adds up and can net you a not-so-insignificant amount of wins in combination with bolts and creature beats (especially Obstructionist being a flying Lightning Bolt).
I recently checked out Gods_Shadow's recent list he played on his YouTube channel. He rocked a list with 3 Ionize and 2 Countersqualls main, which makes my control heart beat faster. I'm currently trying his list, including 1-2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy.
Howver, the landcount of 22 feels a bit odd. What's your guys' opinion on that? Has anyone rocked some percentages?
I see your point. I am currently running it in the Spell Snare slot, which has been underwhelming from time to time, especially when drawn later in the game becoming very situational. Prohibit on the other hand has the upside of hitting more (despite the higher cmc ofc).
As chaos021 said, game 1 is tough. I play vs. Tron nearly every week at FNM and I have lost 99% of pre-board games. FOr this reason I am running 2 Ceremonious Rejection, 2 Unmoored Ego, Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction in the SB paired with 3 Field of Ruin main. What you REALLY need versus Tron post board is a faster clock (and with faster I mean faster than Teferi/Jace). Here, I think Vendilion Clique is the weapon of choice due to the "discard" effect.
Oh and one more tip based on my experiences so far. You really have to hurry. Out of 10 games, around 8 games have been a draw due to time-out, although I had the win on board or in hand. Because of that, I sometimes even start to disrupt them early, countering Ancient Stirrings, Chromatic Stars and so on to slow them down and start hitting with my clock fast.
In summary, the MU gets much better post-board with better clocks and more disruption. But have an eye on the round timer and don't hesitate to scoop the first game to gain you more time!
This 100%. In my humble opinion it is always preferrable to hold up mana for your counterspells. Thus, you do not want to "waste" mana in the early turns just for taking one card from their hand. You cannot fight their top deck this way. Given we are a slow deck, it is close to meaningless taking a card from their hand since they can redraw easily. Oh, and it is an even worse topdeck later in the game. In this phase you want to be using your Cryptics and PWs IMO.
I find them pretty greedy, too. It's a good card no doubt, and a great sweeper/removal the opponent can't interact with (man I have lost so many matches vs. a resolved Liliana...). However, I totally dislike it in a 3 color deck where you want to support cryptics, charms, logic knots and so on. Due to that I even considered cutting Field of Ruin, but it is a necessary evil I think (to have at least some game vs. Tron and Valakut).
Quote: MTG Salvation will be closing on July 8th, 2019.
I've been waiting on this one since day 1 of Horizons spoilers...
Yeah that is a nice one, but at the moment I see it as a 1of in the SB for certain matchups. Nevertheless, the versatility is very cool.
YOu might start from something like this: Esper Control
I just wanted to make the point that there might be occasions where we cannot control what pile to pick cuz we are pretty much locked into one or the other. We have to be careful what to bin (and FoF forces you to bin something) cuz we can't get it back.
However I also see its potential (as mentioned above) and its power. I guess it needs some rigor testing.
But the more I think of it... Imagine you flip over 4 random cards and a Teferi (which is my main wincon and I'm playing two right now). I can imagine many cases in which the opponent sets up a pile with Teferi and one with the rest, pretty much forcing you to pick Teferi. That can't feel good for a 4 mana investment...
Yeah, that might be a way to go. The inclusion of 1-2 Dreadbore could also be a thing with regard to the upcoming PW-heavy set.
Oh, the reason for me why I am not playing GDS over Control is that I simply don't want to. GDS plays a totally different game of magic, with its ups and downs of course. In my case however, I just want to play Control even though it might not be the "strongest" Grixis deck right now.
Oh and on the Countersquall matter: I am currently running Gods_Shadow's list including Squalls and Ionize main. The damage really adds up and can net you a not-so-insignificant amount of wins in combination with bolts and creature beats (especially Obstructionist being a flying Lightning Bolt).
Howver, the landcount of 22 feels a bit odd. What's your guys' opinion on that? Has anyone rocked some percentages?