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  • posted a message on Collected Company Elves
    Quote from Melves72 »
    I agree with strinq. 3/4 in the sideboard is a must. Targets also lands, no mana restriction, useful against almost all decks from affinity to tron.
    For sure we will see in the meta an increment of GBx midrange decks.


    Just to put this in my perspective. I dont think 4 is the way to go. There are two types of considerations when building a SB: Do I want cards to support my game plan (i.e. "combo off" with elves) or do I want to disrupt my opponent?

    IMO one intersection of these two considerations is to destroy troublesome permanents like Ensnaring Bridge. In this regard, Rec Sage does the same Job but better and often uncounterable. I mean, what do you want to invest your two mana and 4 cards in that are taking room in your otherwise very consistent and straight deck? Hit a Teferi? Hit an Ugin? I think thats not the route to go, cuz when your opp lands one of those it means lights out most of the times.

    Hence, I would rather invest the SB slots for other cards that help me to follow my gameplan. I am not saying, however, that Trophy should not be played (2-of sounds good to me). It's a very strong card.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from TheAller »
    Not trying to be annoying, but I disagree that "we came to the conclusion that there is no conclusion". For my part, at least, I came to the conclusion that which cantrip is better depends on the deck you're playing and I also came to the conclusion that if you are playing Terminus, Opt is better. Not trying to do hairsplitting, I just want to emphasize that I wasn't implying that it's a wash and it makes no difference which card you play.

    I was not implying that, either. What I was saying, and I am with you here, is that it heavily depends. IMO you cannot find a deterministic solution, which on the other hand makes it more exciting Smile

    Quote from TheAller »
    There is another subject related to this one that I find interesting to discuss. And that is, cantrips and mulligans. I've heard over and over that Serum Visions allows us to keep one landers. I actually think keeping hands with just 1 lands is almost always wrong, unless you're down to 5 cards. Regardless of Opt, SV or other cantrips being in your hand. I think it's a trap. And I know this very well 'cause it's a trap I've fallen often into. I'm very conservative about mulligans, I generally mull less than most people. And I've fallen for this trap of keeping "good hands" that only have this tiny, little problem: they only have 1 land in it. Recently I started keeping track a little bit of how the games where I kept hands with just 1 land went (and I only keep them if there are cantrips). The stats are pretty terrible. So I actually think that rationally, the right choice is to always mulligan hands with 1 land when you're playing Jeskai Control. Serum Visions makes you feel safe to keep hands with just 1 land but it's actually a trap and it's wrong to do it.

    I agree. I generally never ever hold a one lander except in some marginal scenarios where I got like Land, SV, and tons of burn spells to surivive long enough vs. certain creature decks. In all other instances, I auto-mull a one-lander due to the same experiences you have stated. And yes, I fell to the SV trap, too Wink
    However, once you mulligan down to 6 or 5 cards, a one-lander with SV becomes more appealing to me.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Okay, wow, sometimes I feel some people really get upset on this topic :p

    So to sum it all up, we came to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. With that being said, I gave SV and Terminus a try and it has shown its strengths and anticipated weaknesses as well. Of course, I had 1-2 matches where an instant speed terminus would have saved me from a lethal elves swing (on the other hand tho, I had put the Terminus on top thanks to SV, so Opt would not have saved me there).

    As people have pointed out, it all depends on many factors. Some of them you cannot influence (variance, "luck", matchups,...), some of them you can (prefered playstyle, meta game calls, choices based on experience, ...). Personally I like the SV so far. It lets me plan ahead, set up a Terminus for like two turns in the future, and in the meanwhile I got spot removal if I absolutely need to. As I mentioned above, to my experience, SV REALLY improves my starting hands. I kept so many hands with Opt not finding a land in time that it hurts. Of course, we are talking about marginal percentages, but again, these are my personal experiences and thus my personal choices. And who knows, maybe I will switch back to Opt or a SV/Opt split (once I find room for that, pretty tough tbh).

    Oh and one last thing. All of my statements are based on MY opinion and experience and prefered playstyle. So saying things like "that's not true" or "it makes no sense" is straight up rude IMO because it does not account for the context the individual player resides in. I would love to have a rich and appreciative discussion where people actually respect opinions (which the majority does, thank you for that).
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    @Figure of Destiny and more creature-centric Jeskai lists: I heavily dislike these approaches, but thats just my personal opinion. I like to play with as few creatures as possible, i.e. Snapcasters main and Angels/Cliques in SB. I think these lists above, although they might perform, refrain from the classic control plan too much for my taste. It's much more of a midrange list, not control (IMO).

    @Opt vs. Serum Visions: I copy/paste a comment I recently posted in the UW control thread on that topic:
    "I found myself in the spot of "hoping" for an Opt into Terminus far too many times, it never worked. IMO the ONLY real advantage of Opt is if you can set up Terminus with Jace in case he resolves and sticks around AND you have a Terminus already at your disposal. That are many "ifs" and "cases". I am currently trying SV over Opt so I can plan ahead in my Miracles Jeskai list. Another advantage of SV is it makes keeping certain starting hands much more comfortable. One-lander and Opt feels like a suicide mission. Just my thoughts, though. I havent found the holy grail, either."

    I recently cut Electrolyze for the full playset of Terminus (as suggested somewhere above) and I am testing a list with SV and no instant speed card-draw (thus neglecting the Jace Brainstorm into Opt into instant speed Terminus). SV is SO much better in my experience, especially in Jesaki where it seeks you lands and scries surplus burn spells to the bottom. Just for reference, here is my current list, opinions welcome (btw, the SB is trimmed to my meta ATM):

    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from jayjayhooks »
    Quote from Cody_X »
    I disagree. I think its because of terminus.
    I can count on 1 hand how many times i've made the snap > opt play when it wasn't because i was digging for a terminus. Its honestly not that good. Terminus at instant speed is a lot more relevant.


    Terminus at instant speed is amazing, but the odds of hitting it off a single scry + draw are insanely low, it's like 15% at best. If your plan is to pass the turn and hope for a miracle, you're in a real bad spot. It's better to Serum and see if you can set one up for the next turn, and if you can't, then you get to make a game plan for that contingency. With Opt, it's like, pass the turn, hope for a miracle and when you miss 85% of the time, you just lost out on free scry value and you don't get a chance to use the card you just drew unless it's an instant. Not to mention how inferior it is when you Opt and keep the card on top, which I would say is more than half of the time, then you miss out double scry value and you'd be better off having registered Heiroglyphic illumination.

    Look at the lists the HOF players are running - Serum Visions and Hieroglyph.


    I agree on this one. I found myself in the spot of "hoping" for an Opt into Terminus far too many times, it never worked. IMO the ONLY real advantage of Opt is if you can set up Terminus with Jace in case he resolves and sticks around AND you have a Terminus already at your disposal. That are many "ifs" and "cases". I am currently trying SV over Opt so I can plan ahead in my Miracles Jeskai list. Another advantage of SV is it makes keeping certain starting hands much more comfortable. One-lander and Opt feels like a suicide mission. Just my thoughts, though. I havent found the holy grail, either.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from ccc1522 »
    Have you guys seen this card?

    Could this help i any match up?

    shapeshifter’s marrow


    Hmm, interesting card, but in my opinion it works against our "keep the board clean" plan. We got our own big finishers, too (Baneslayer/Lyra). I can't imagine a scenario where this card would be good. Tapping out for it feels bad to me.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from gkourou »

    The last thing I am thinking is that I am certain Humans will be huge. One change I could make to make this a better matchup? Maybe add an oust to the board, instead of Damping Sphere?


    Or maybe throw in a Wrath of God for the sake of diversity to battle Meddling Mage? It is even a solid choice versus Ezuri. Oh and yes, cutting Sphere sounds good to me, since I am not a big fan of playing it as a 1-of.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from aRSKOG »

    [...]
    I think this is a good example of a trap a lot of control players are walking straight into with heads high. First, why do you need to go to 5-6 lands as fast as possible when your spells cost one and two and why would you ever want have more than 5-6 lands in play in total? I know that's particular for my list. But lets take a general discussion. More lands in your deck means higher risks of flooding. More lands in your deck typically means you support higher CMC spells which are dead in the early game. I think control needs to consider playing cards that are live from T1 to the game closes and those cards needs to be efficient answers which trades upwards meaning if the opponent cast a spell costing U then you shouldnt pay more than U to counter it. If the opponent plays a huge spell costing 5CMC+ then you get an advantage if you can answer it for less than 5 CMC.
    My claim is, that both Cryptic Command and Celestial Colonnade are very bad cards in the current meta. Why would you play bad cards in your control deck? Now, why do I think they are bad?
    [...]


    Thank you for sharing your thought. I think we need more "healthy criticism" to keep the deck archetype competitive by questioning things that might might be settled in stone.
    While I do not want to argue on all the points you made, I want to stress the "Cryptic Command dilemme" in particular. Following Jim Davis opinion on Cryptic Command he stated recently during his stream, I opted to cut down on 2 Crpytics, mainly due to the same reasons you mentioned. Crpytic is VERY clunky, highly increases your chance of an auto-mulligan, and isn't that good of a topdeck either (mostly it just cycles through). I haven't missed the Cryptics, yet. However, I am not mentally ready to cut all of them, yet ;-)

    I also enjoyed reading your Teferi/Jace comparison without having a strong opinion on this topic. I am currently running 2 Teferi main, after reading your "article", I tend to give Jace another shot, maybe even as a 2-of.

    Regarding the Colonnade, I still think this land is a neccessary evil. Our (or at least my) only two wincons right now is Teferi and manland beats. The burn plan (even though it surely exists) is not reliable to my experiences. However, getting it FoR'ed is a thing. To that end, battling opposing FoR, I more and more tend to include Alpine Moons in my SB. In the matchups where we get fielded, enemy FoRs are much more powerful than ours (e.g. vs UW Control).

    ######

    One last thing: I am on the ongoing hunt for new, efficient wincons. I think both Clique and even little Gideon are promising choices on that front. What are your thought on wincons in the current and the future meta?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from TheAller »
    Won a 24 people tournament with a Resto-Kiki build.


    Grats on your finish and a very interesting take on the archetype! I actually might try that out in my local meta so catch ppl off-guard.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from emilan87 »
    Hi guys, im new to this thread but have quite a time playing jeskai...

    I was wondering... does anybody have thought that we can put some Terminus in the 75 along with opt and some number of jaces without afecting too munch the deck funtionality and boosting our response to fast decks and graveyard decks?

    UW Control does not have the exclusive use for that and we can exploit to some point. For me Jeskai its still better and we just need little changes to addapt for the new meta

    I have thought about that, too. But honestly, the whole Miracle mechanic does not perform well. It is just too random and very clunky in hand. When you need it, you don't find it. That's my experience so far). Also, in order to put it on top, one should play 2-3 Jaces (like current UW lists). That, in my opinion, is not a good choice ATM in comparison to standard Teferi/Jace cuts (or solely Teferi).

    Beyond these issues I believe we don't even need Terminus since we already run so many removal spells. If you need more sweeping effects, I'd rather add Settle the Wreckage or Wrath to the SB instead.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Grixis Control
    Quote from TheAlexGnan »

    whats much more important is mastering your own build and SB plan, coming to your list on your own terms.


    Without intervening in the ongoing argument, let me salute you for this comment. IMO many tinkering and pondering about the perfect 75 can be broken to this simple advice: find your way and stick to it. Build some experience, master your list, know your draws. Even an "imperfect" (whatever that means within this vast domain of possible Grixix Control routes) or exotic list can 5-0 the crap out of tier 1 decks. I mean, who would have thought that Nimble Obstructionist would overperform like the beast he is? Rolleyes (shoutout to my German fella Gods_Shadow)
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Grixis Control
    It all comes down to your meta, I guess. I also want to point out the choice to run softer counterspells like Mana Leak and Remand. To me, this seems to be more of an ideological question qhether to run those and cut, for instance, Cryptics down to 3.

    There even was a time I ran the full playset Pyromancers. The clock they provide is awesome, especially vs. things like storm. After reading some discussion on the net, I removed ALL counterspells from my main and moved some efficient ones to the SB (Dispel, Stroke, Countersquall). Instead, I ran 4-6 discard spells, which btw work nicely in combination with Pyromancer.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Grixis Control
    Quote from caesar_16 »

    Let me just ask one think, have you tried opt instead of serum visions?


    I felt that Opt is a nice option in Pyromancer-heavy decks. Instant speed token generation is an efficient and sometimes beneficial move. I ran 4 Opt and 2 SV in that case. Actually didn't feel that bad. Overall, I'd also prefer SV, since it finds answers much more reliably.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Grixis Control
    @Tiemuuu: I've seen you playing this list for quite some time now, grats on your repetitively good finishes. How has the relatively low land count been for you? Ever failed to get on mana in time? I also notice your high count on cantrips (SV, AV, TS), ever felt that it might be too much air?

    Thanks in advance Smile
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Grixis Control
    Quote from caesar_16 »

    what do you think about collective brutality in place of thoughtseize/inquisition?
    and what about cast down? It's easier on the colors and let's the deck be more black oriented.

    What about a turbo Jace, vryn's prodigy list?


    I play Brutality over other discard 100% of the time. It even won me some games with its drain mode. Very versatile card and almost NEVER dead.

    I've thought about cast down, too. But I still highly prefer the unconditional removal Terminate offers. I always have the mana for it, too, since I play 4 bolts and 4 k-commands (and pyromancer, too). However, if you want to trim Red in your list and focus on UB, Cast Down is a nice alternative IMO.

    PS: With regard to the "removal debate" going on right now: I am currently playing a 4-3-2 split (Bolts, Pushes, Terminates, in that order) plus 4 k-command. The recurrsion with command is just too much for many decks to handle, especially when you fuel your GY with Scours. Regarding the split, I mightconsider going down on 2 Pushes (although it hits manlands like colonnade, too, which is important in my meta).
    Posted in: Control
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