I haven't seen any discussion on this Animar build for quite some time. Have people mostly abandoned this version of Animar, or has discussion moved elsewhere? There are quite a few cards that have come out in the last two years that I think might deserve a slot, but as always, the question is what to cut. I've been playtesting them, and I think they're all solid, but I'd be curious to know what other people (especially Jester!) think. I'm currently running Jester's last mentioned list from this thread (minus the true dual lands), but with the cuts I describe below.
Waterlogged Grove/Fiery Islet - These feel like no-duh inclusions. The life loss is negligible, but the late game ability to pop a land for one more card off the top of your library to hopefully extend the combo has definitely saved some games for me. I cut an Island for the Islet, and a Forest for the Grove.
Castle Garenbrig - This also feels like a no-duh replacement for a Forest. There's virtually no down side, we use a lot of green mana anyway, and "tapping for two" on a single land is pretty useful. It's no Gaea's Cradle, but still pretty great.
Mystic Sanctuary - I'm less sure on this one. The deck doesn't run a ton of instants or sorceries, but the few it does run are fairly high impact (by definition, since you have to be a pretty good non-creature to get included). Drawing is extremely easy in this deck, so the top-of-library aspect isn't much of a downside, and the three Island requirement is equally easy to hit. Then, being able to turn any blue fetchland into any of our Tutor spells, a Brainstorm/Shared Discovery, or a second Glimpse of Nature we've already cast seems fairly strong. I cut an Island for this.
Prismatic Vista - It's a 10th Fetch! Sorta. It can't get Shocks, Duals, Dryad Arbor, or Mystic Sanctuary, but it can fix mana, thin the deck of lands to reduce wiffs while comboing, and triggers Lotus Cobra. I cut a Forest for this.
Springbloom Druid - It's Harrow that we can Clamp and cast for G! I feel like this is an obvious auto-include. The main downside would be running out of basics, which could be a concern, especially since I've been cutting more of them for the above lands. I think this can be tuned around, though. I ended up cutting Gatecreeper Vine for this, as it feels like an almost strict upgrade.
Pollenbright Druid - This also feels obvious to me. It's another Bond Beetle at the 2 CMC slot, but with added synergy with Rishkar. I ended up cutting Sylvan Ranger for this, but that might not be the right call as they fill different functionality.
The Great Henge - This one has clear anti-synergy with Skull Clamp, but I feel like the benefits outweigh the few situations where we play this then draw a clamp. Having a permanent Glimpse of Nature is nuts, and the card sorta-kinda benefits from Animar's ability since a big Animar reduces the cost of The Henge. Getting a 7/7 Animar is a piece of cake, and since it's an artifact, it can tap the turn it comes out so it's effectively "free". The life gain isn't huge, but it does let us loop Phyrexian Metamorph more freely, or pay for Shocks/Fetches/Grove/Islet, etc. I ended up cutting Rofellos for this, but maybe I should cut something else. It's a hard call with so many good options.
Spark Double - I've currently taken out Phantasmal Image for this guy. I've been pleased with it so far, but I'm curious to hear others' thoughts. The idea is that in addition to copying other creatures for ETB effects, you also have the option of copying Animar, the copy gets a free +1/+1 to start, and now every creature you play doubles the cost reduction you're getting, allowing you to ramp into an Eldrazi more quickly. It also gives you a bit of a buffer against non-wrath removal, since they need to remove two copies of Animar now. And, unlike Phantasmal Image, you can bounce it if needed. I'm unsure if this is just win more, and copying Animar isn't better than a 2 CMC clone, but it's been decent in playtesting so far. Heck, maybe the right decision is to cut something else and just run 3 copy effects - I'm unsure.
So yeah, any thoughts on these new inclusions? And what would you cut for them?
I absolutely love this deck, and I'm sad to see discussion has died down. I think we've been given a lot of really great tools over the last two years!
Just attended a Pauper Tournament. I ended up in third place and got a crappy promo. It was a small crowd of seven players, two of which were my friends borrowing some of my decks from the Paper Pauper Battle Bag. My friend got first place with the Stompy deck!
My first matchup was against my friend with the Stompy deck. Game one I am fully in control, but make a rookie mistake and tap my mana wrong and can't fog a turn and he proceeds to kill me. Game two he gets me to four, and then plays Viridian Longbow in his second main phase. I am dead next turn so I scoop. A very humbling 0-2 that actually cost me quite a bit in the end.
Game two is versus a Mono Black Control deck. He has a sacrifice sub-theme with Carrion Feeder and Undying cards as well as Gray Merchants and removal. Game one I start off with a very risky hand with lots of fogs, but no Blue mana. I draw a Seat of the Synod at the last possible turn and completely take over from there. Game two, he Duresses me on turn 3, but I Brainstorm in response and give him a hand filled with nothing but lands and cards with Flashback. He takes a Moment's Peace. My Quiet Disrepairs put me well out of range of dying to Gray Merchant of Asphodel (he had some really awesome-looking ones that he altered himself), and I end up combo-killing him with triple Erasure into double Brainstorm and an Accumulated Knowledge for four. I'm now 2-2.
Game three was against Elves. Unfortunately, this is not a streamlined version of it, so she had absolutely no tricks up her sleeve like Ulamog's Crusher, and no enchantment hate in her sideboard, so she has no way of interacting with me. Game one goes by with no trouble. The only thing of note is that I ended up casting a second Quiet Disrepair and countering it with Arcane Denial to draw three cards. Game two was basically a repeat, but with a lot more discouraged sighs. Unfortunately, she plays super slowly and we hit the 50 minute mark and the judge calls for five turns. At this point, she still had 20-something cards in her library, but I have only one Erasure in play and don't manage to find any others to combo with my triple Brainstorm hand. Because of this, I end up 1-0-1 (for a total of 3-2-1). So instead of getting second place, I get third.
So, had I not punted that first game against my friend, I would have at least gotten second place, if not just beat him in game three and gotten first. Feels bad!
In any case, this is the first time I go to a Pauper Tournament there, and the meta looks very under-developed for the most part. There were two Stompy lists, one Elves, one Hexproof, one MBC, myself on Turbo Fog and one I didn't get to see. This is a perfect place for Turbo Fog to exist, so I'll likely try it again next time. The only thing I'm worried about is getting too many tie games.
All in all, a good experience and I look forward to going again next month with
There are also certain misconceptions and stigma involved around the deck. The deck is not an auto-loss versus Burn; in fact, it does quite well against it with proper building.
It's nice to hear someone else say this. I can't tell you how often I hear "yeah, but it folds to burn". Actually, not really; especially if you're playing UWg versions.
It also does very well against most control decks because of the nature of the win condition (mill).
Do you have any advice against Faeries? (or as some people call it "U Delver") I find this to be the most "auto lose" matchup, mostly because of how many damned counterspells they can pull out of nothing.
In terms of stigma, I get salt from time to time when playing this deck; people often just conceded in the tournament practice room because they find the deck boring to play against, or that it just isn't interactive or fun. The fact that the games go very long keeps certain types of players away from it.
I think Turbo Fog is non-interactive with decks that aren't prepared to fight against it. If you built your deck with no way to interact with Turbo Fog or similar decks, you're gonna have a bad time for sure.
I played against an Elves deck yesterday. He was attacking for over 300 damage on turn 4 when I had mulliganed to 5. Here's a screenshot. Needless to say I won that game.
I feel like this is akin to how Robots sits in Modern. If you're not prepared with artifact-based answers to the deck, it can often feel unfair; however, a few careful main and side list decisions can make a lame matchup suddenly feel highly interactive.
Instant-speed draw is extremely important in all versions of the deck. From time to time, you'll see versions running cards like Deep Analysis, Compulsive Research, See Beyond and, when it was legal, Treasure Cruise. Check the Primer for more options on potential draw spells (and my two cents on them).
More what I meant is: Why would I ever even consider any of the sorcery speed cards? The instants just seem so dramatically better. Is there anything about the non-instants that counteracts the downside of sorcery speed enough that I might consider them in certain environments?
23 lands seems like a lot to me, considering how many draw spells you have. Lonely Sandbar is fine, but you are now at 9 lands that come into play tapped. You'll find they are annoying at all stages of the game, and can even cause you big problems. I try and have as few as possible in my own deck.
At first I felt like they might be strong in the late game as a little more fuel in dire situations where you're digging for that Moment's Peace to buy you two more turns, but after some more playtesting, I totally agree with "annoying at all stages of the game". There are enough draw engines, I often just wanted another source of mana to play another draw spell instead of doing "U : Draw a Card."
As for Artifact lands, having 8 of them is usually unnecessary.
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I must have spoken poorly. I agree that 8 is an insane number. I meant that 4 copies of Artifact Lands feels like the right number. That said, I'm wondering if it's better to go 4x Seat of the Synod, as opposed to splitting it up among the colors like I have. I've run into a few situations where having 2x Plains/Forest screwed me because I couldn't fetch for a 3rd copy. I run enough islands, that it's pretty impossible for this to happen.
I've swapped to 4x Muddle and 2x AD instead of 3/3 to see how I feel. The reason I've liked Denial so much is simply because I run into a lot of creature cards I really wish I could have countered. But, perhaps I'm making some play mistakes that are causing me to feel this way?
I've always been a fan of Turbo Fog across various formats, and I've recently decided I want to break into it for my local Pauper events. I've spent some time researching this thread and others, as well as a bit of playtesting; I'm currently drafting up a deck very similar to pierakor's, albeit with a few tweaks. I'm curious to know what other Turbo Fog players think about my decisions =)
1) Instant speed Draw is really good; are there any Sorcery speed draw spells that are so good they trump pierakor's instant speed focus? PS: Brainstorm and then Words of Wisdom are the two best draw spells we have access to.
2) If you have good draw spells, you can get by with a surprisingly low amount of fog (thanks to Moment's Peace); But, I'm not sure if 10+4 is too low for fog effects. Thoughts?
3) I like Arcane Denial quite a bit, and 3-main felt like a nice compromise between 2-main and 0 or 2 Sideboard. These might be sided out for 3x Counterspell or Dispel, etc. as needed. I basically dropped one Artificer's Epiphany from pierakor's recent build for another Arcane Denial.
4) Jace's Erasure is absolutely all you need for milling effects. The rest works itself out if you have good DrawSpells.
5) The 1x Lonely Sandbar is my way of running 22.5 lands. I'm not sure if I should drop it, or go 2x. Also, 4x ArtifactLands feels like a better number to me than 3x.
I've been seeing decks run Nissa, Vastwood Seer lately, and I'm wondering what Jester's (and other's) opinion is on the card. At first, I thought it might be a replacement for Gatecreeper Vine, but in fact it's almost always run along side the vine. It's an okay card, but I'm not understanding what it's replacing. Is this card really better than whatever it replaces on Jester's list?
Edit: I originally said Sylvan Ranger instead of Gatecreeper Vine, but in retrospect, I think the vine is worse thanks to not being clampable.
Man-O-War' is just one of those cards where it never really impresses, but every once in a blue moon, it's a quality toolbox card, that can be tutored with Imperial Recruiter whereas Gilded Drake cannot. It has stolen games. Not many, but some. I get the feeling though that the games in which it has won could've otherwise been won with other card selections. More importantly, it's worth weighing in on where the focus needs to be. Cutting Man-O-War at the cost of slightly decreasing win% against aggro if it means increasing matchups elsewhere is definitely something worth weighing. Furthermore, you also have to ask things like, if I had a Rofellos instead of this Man-O-War, and were instead able to ramp up card advantage etc, how would that impact my win%?
My question more was: Why not any of the other bounce creatures over Man-O-War? Why does he hit the chopping block earlier than Dream Stalker, or Arctic Merfolk?
Anyway, food for thought - if we are going to do a new round of testing/optimization for Khans, it might be an appropriate time to do it with fresh eyes. The reasons why things like Rofellos, Quirion Ranger and Scarecrone were cut, for example, are no longer as pronounced. Elvish Mystic, Faerie Imposter, Bond Beetle, Gatecreeper Vine, Sage of Epityr etc changed the curve dynamics, which in return makes Rofellos and Scarecrone suddenly stronger picks.
The biggest thing to consider is that the normal A vs B perspective doesn't strictly apply here. This deck is entirely about card dynamics, so you somewhat need to look at it from a many-to-many perspective such that emphasizes strong dynamics. The right fit is almost always better than the best card here.
I have to admit, I can't follow a lot of this. It makes me feel like perhaps the OP might need an update of some kind? A lot of the sections explaining strategy and considerations like these are currently empty. I really love this deck, and I do think you're pioneering something pretty unique yet effective; however, I'm starting to doubt if I really understand at all how to think about this deck. And, because of it's wholistic nature, I'm really nervous to make any change without getting the reasons for making such a change.
PS: What do you think about Rattleclaw Mystic? I know you hate commenting until set release, but it seems like an inclusion worth a slot somewhere.
For Reclamation sage? There are a couple of options. Arctic Merfolk, Sage of Epityr, Augury Owl, Dream Stalker, Cloudstone Curio, and Man-o'-War are arguably the weakest slots at the moment, from strongest to weakest.
Out of curiosity, why is Man-o-War so far down on that list? It seems like the bounce creature with the most utility; I've had a few games where being able to bounce something that's not yours changed things dramatically (especially if you can keep replaying him via other methods. A sort of mini-ulamog).
As far as deciding which of these to cut for what, how important is it that replacements have either the same mana cost, or a similar effect? For example, does cutting Sage of Epityr for a 2-drop make sense? Or, how about dropping Augury Owl for Joraga Treespeaker - same cost, very different effects. I guess what I'm asking is: I know you have things fairly fine tuned, and I'd like to stay within those parameters as much as possible with any changes I may or may not make.
Finally, call me a crazy bastard, because clearly I'm so far out there with regards to deckbuild that it's borderline absurd, but I still don't feel like it's worth specifically adding in Reclamation Sage as hate for Jitte/Survival. Jitte itself is at most a small piece of a larger counter offense. It's not going to win alone, they still need a lot of things to go right; it only tilts the scale paired with hands that would otherwise keep you in check. It's generally very manageable to play against, and there are always other options. Aside from adopting very calculated strategies, Primeval Titan generally just does work. The majority of decks that utilize Jitte against us are already very good matchups. I would much focus optimization towards making the control matchup better, specifically GAAIV.
I think you're right, and I don't disagree (although, I didn't mean to imply those were my SOLE targets). I'm currently just playing in a very small meta *coughtwootherplayerscough*, so considering that and considering that Reclamation Sage is on the list of "worth testing", it seemed like a particularly powerful inclusion to try for my particular situation.
Its also worth noting that this thing combos with just cloudstone curio, and any castable creature with only one colored mana in the cost, which until now I believe was really only doable with the eldrazi and peregrine drake and co. Seems like an auto include as it is a more relevant card when Animar is sidelined than peregrine drake, but you would probably run both in an all in build anyways.
What about Gatecreeper Vine? It seems to fill a very similar spot, but I'm not finding many ways in which the Gatecreeper does it better. I suppose it can save you on a turn you fail to have a land in hand, and it is technically deck thinning.
[snip]
I've tested reclamation sage and he won't get out of the deck until Wizards create the same for two manas
For those who are using Reclamation Sage, what are you cutting to include it? Whether or not it's really worth a spot in the most general form of the deck, in my personal play group, it's definitely a bullet worth having (Jitte and Survival come to mind first); I'm really not sure what to take out. Some thoughts from Jester would be greatly appreciated, as well.
I'm slowly collecting all the pieces to this deck, but I have a few spots which will take time to collect. I play proxies among friends, but I like having the replacement in the sleeve already, so I can easily play "legally" if needed. As such, I had a few questions about budget options for a few slots:
Fetch Lands and Alpha Lands
I have a few more fetchlands to gather, but as far as replacing them with alternatives goes, are basics the best? Or, is there something better? If so, how should I try to balance the mana ratios (G:U:R)? The same goes for the Alpha "non-shock" dual lands.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Of course there's no real replacement for him, but I'm thinking the main point is the card draw. What alternatives fill Kozilek's role the best if Kozilek can't come to the party?
Mox Diamond
Is the recently removed Wild Cantor a legitimate replacement for Mox Diamond? Or, is there something more permanent that would be preferred? (If only we could run Noble Hierarch)
I don't see how you guys are cutting image, the things that you can do with it are just insane and can get you out of so many jams. I have been able to copy restos to untap zealous to pod to kiki for the win. I have been able to copy redcaps to just win on the spot with pod, copying voice, to podding it for witness to get back image. That card can just do so much if you are creative with it. I never end up siding it out. It is such a bullet that does crazy things. I feel like you almost always have an out if you are playing image
the image is really not that necessary. sure it can be great a couple of times, but its a card which usually gets boarded out 80% of the time, it's so easily dealt with. plus if im boarding a card out 80% of the time its better just to part ways with it.
I think I agree with both of you on everything you've said; however, isn't the point of a mainboard to be as general as possible, and then you side out your generality for your specificality? It seems to me that Phantasmal Image offers a lot against a totally unknown opponent, but offers much less when you can replace him with a very specific solution.
I suggest these ideas as an experienced novice trying to learn, though =)
I agree that 3 Chord is too many. I have been playing 2 and have been happy.
so i am not the only one, i will play with 2 and see how i go
chord is great but its expensive. also seems like people are either playing 3 hierarchs, 3 WoR, 3 chords or 4 hierarchs, 2 WoR and 2 chords as the wall of roots is less important without chord of calling.. and this deck goes so much better with a t1 mana dork
I saw this series of similar suggestions. I'm wondering more and more if 2x Chord of Calling 2x Domri 4x Hierarchs 2x Wall of Roots is the way to go. I'm not a super professional player, though. Is going that route watering the deck down too much? Is focus better?
PS: Here are my proposed build thoughts. I tried to split evenly the ability to either "combo out" or "beat down"; yet, not completely compromising either. In the list, for each CMC I tried to visually separate them as comboy cards first, and beatdowny cards second. There's a pretty even split in each CMC between the two, with some overlap. I kind of think of the 1x Linvala as a Restoration Angel with "silver coating", but no combo potential.
Edit: I see some people are liking Fiend Hunter. Given the build above, I would probably replace Eternal Witness. They just feel so similar in a lot of ways that I can't justify both. Agree/Disagree?
Edit2: I also want to point out that given the build, I'm thinking of Domri and Chord as "secondary" pods, with Domri being the "agro" split and Chord being the "combo" split. Obviously with some minor overlap between the two.
Question for anyone who has a lot of experience with pod: I keep seeing lists decide to go either with 3 Chord, or 2 Domri. I've also heard a rule of thumb that you should have 1 Wall of Roots for every 1 Chord. This got me to wondering, why not run 2 Domri, 2 Chord, 2 Roots (as people seem to be doing more), and consider it 4 Pod + 4 Sorta-Pod. Is there a particular reason this method of pairing would fall flat?
@Jester: In your list you run a single Mountain. I was wondering what the value in this is. The only advantage over another Island/Forest/Manafixer that I see is to avoid 2 damage from a shock land. Is there something else I'm not seeing, and does this utility overshadow the possibility of getting in trouble with mulligans due to a misplaced mountain?
I'm really just barely learning the deck, but it was something I got thinking about and decided I'd just ask =)
Does Treasonous Ogre make the cut for its ability to burst upwards of 8-9 red mana for free?
I'd like to know this as well. I hadn't seen that card before, and it's really interesting. Maybe Gaea's cradle just does enough of that on it's own, though?
Seems questionable - I don't see it being a better tutor target than Kozilek, which aside from being free a disgusting amount of the time is also recast-able much more frequently.
You've already tried out Deadeye Navigator as a substitute for Primeval Titan?
Waterlogged Grove/Fiery Islet - These feel like no-duh inclusions. The life loss is negligible, but the late game ability to pop a land for one more card off the top of your library to hopefully extend the combo has definitely saved some games for me. I cut an Island for the Islet, and a Forest for the Grove.
Castle Garenbrig - This also feels like a no-duh replacement for a Forest. There's virtually no down side, we use a lot of green mana anyway, and "tapping for two" on a single land is pretty useful. It's no Gaea's Cradle, but still pretty great.
Mystic Sanctuary - I'm less sure on this one. The deck doesn't run a ton of instants or sorceries, but the few it does run are fairly high impact (by definition, since you have to be a pretty good non-creature to get included). Drawing is extremely easy in this deck, so the top-of-library aspect isn't much of a downside, and the three Island requirement is equally easy to hit. Then, being able to turn any blue fetchland into any of our Tutor spells, a Brainstorm/Shared Discovery, or a second Glimpse of Nature we've already cast seems fairly strong. I cut an Island for this.
Prismatic Vista - It's a 10th Fetch! Sorta. It can't get Shocks, Duals, Dryad Arbor, or Mystic Sanctuary, but it can fix mana, thin the deck of lands to reduce wiffs while comboing, and triggers Lotus Cobra. I cut a Forest for this.
Springbloom Druid - It's Harrow that we can Clamp and cast for G! I feel like this is an obvious auto-include. The main downside would be running out of basics, which could be a concern, especially since I've been cutting more of them for the above lands. I think this can be tuned around, though. I ended up cutting Gatecreeper Vine for this, as it feels like an almost strict upgrade.
Pollenbright Druid - This also feels obvious to me. It's another Bond Beetle at the 2 CMC slot, but with added synergy with Rishkar. I ended up cutting Sylvan Ranger for this, but that might not be the right call as they fill different functionality.
The Great Henge - This one has clear anti-synergy with Skull Clamp, but I feel like the benefits outweigh the few situations where we play this then draw a clamp. Having a permanent Glimpse of Nature is nuts, and the card sorta-kinda benefits from Animar's ability since a big Animar reduces the cost of The Henge. Getting a 7/7 Animar is a piece of cake, and since it's an artifact, it can tap the turn it comes out so it's effectively "free". The life gain isn't huge, but it does let us loop Phyrexian Metamorph more freely, or pay for Shocks/Fetches/Grove/Islet, etc. I ended up cutting Rofellos for this, but maybe I should cut something else. It's a hard call with so many good options.
Spark Double - I've currently taken out Phantasmal Image for this guy. I've been pleased with it so far, but I'm curious to hear others' thoughts. The idea is that in addition to copying other creatures for ETB effects, you also have the option of copying Animar, the copy gets a free +1/+1 to start, and now every creature you play doubles the cost reduction you're getting, allowing you to ramp into an Eldrazi more quickly. It also gives you a bit of a buffer against non-wrath removal, since they need to remove two copies of Animar now. And, unlike Phantasmal Image, you can bounce it if needed. I'm unsure if this is just win more, and copying Animar isn't better than a 2 CMC clone, but it's been decent in playtesting so far. Heck, maybe the right decision is to cut something else and just run 3 copy effects - I'm unsure.
So yeah, any thoughts on these new inclusions? And what would you cut for them?
I absolutely love this deck, and I'm sad to see discussion has died down. I think we've been given a lot of really great tools over the last two years!
What was your list?
It's nice to hear someone else say this. I can't tell you how often I hear "yeah, but it folds to burn". Actually, not really; especially if you're playing UWg versions.
Do you have any advice against Faeries? (or as some people call it "U Delver") I find this to be the most "auto lose" matchup, mostly because of how many damned counterspells they can pull out of nothing.
I feel like this is akin to how Robots sits in Modern. If you're not prepared with artifact-based answers to the deck, it can often feel unfair; however, a few careful main and side list decisions can make a lame matchup suddenly feel highly interactive.
More what I meant is: Why would I ever even consider any of the sorcery speed cards? The instants just seem so dramatically better. Is there anything about the non-instants that counteracts the downside of sorcery speed enough that I might consider them in certain environments?
At first I felt like they might be strong in the late game as a little more fuel in dire situations where you're digging for that Moment's Peace to buy you two more turns, but after some more playtesting, I totally agree with "annoying at all stages of the game". There are enough draw engines, I often just wanted another source of mana to play another draw spell instead of doing "U : Draw a Card."
I must have spoken poorly. I agree that 8 is an insane number. I meant that 4 copies of Artifact Lands feels like the right number. That said, I'm wondering if it's better to go 4x Seat of the Synod, as opposed to splitting it up among the colors like I have. I've run into a few situations where having 2x Plains/Forest screwed me because I couldn't fetch for a 3rd copy. I run enough islands, that it's pretty impossible for this to happen.
What are your thoughts on Pristine Talisman vs Quiet Disrepair? I see a lot of decks 1x mainboard and 1x sideboard Quiet Disrepair; Is the same kind of split good with Talisman? Or would you rather have 2x main deck in that case? And is Quiet Disrepair so good that I want to run it along side Talisman?
I've swapped to 4x Muddle and 2x AD instead of 3/3 to see how I feel. The reason I've liked Denial so much is simply because I run into a lot of creature cards I really wish I could have countered. But, perhaps I'm making some play mistakes that are causing me to feel this way?
First, here's my deck draft:
4x Moment's Peace
3x Riot Control
3x Dawn Charm
Draw Spells (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Words of Wisdom
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Artificer's Epiphany
1x Keep Watch
Mill (4)
4x Jace's Erasure
Counter (6)
3x Arcane Denial
3x Muddle the Mixture
1x Quiet Disrepair
Land (23)
4x Terramorphic Expanse
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Seat of the Synod
1x Ancient Den
1x Tree of Tales
1x Lonely Sandbar
6x Island
2x Plains
2x Forest
1x Circle of Protection: Red
3x Dispel
2x Journey to Nowhere
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Riot Control
1x Dawn Charm
1x Quiet Disrepair
2x Rest for the Weary
3x Counterspell
1) Instant speed Draw is really good; are there any Sorcery speed draw spells that are so good they trump pierakor's instant speed focus? PS: Brainstorm and then Words of Wisdom are the two best draw spells we have access to.
2) If you have good draw spells, you can get by with a surprisingly low amount of fog (thanks to Moment's Peace); But, I'm not sure if 10+4 is too low for fog effects. Thoughts?
3) I like Arcane Denial quite a bit, and 3-main felt like a nice compromise between 2-main and 0 or 2 Sideboard. These might be sided out for 3x Counterspell or Dispel, etc. as needed. I basically dropped one Artificer's Epiphany from pierakor's recent build for another Arcane Denial.
4) Jace's Erasure is absolutely all you need for milling effects. The rest works itself out if you have good Draw Spells.
5) The 1x Lonely Sandbar is my way of running 22.5 lands. I'm not sure if I should drop it, or go 2x. Also, 4x Artifact Lands feels like a better number to me than 3x.
Edit: I originally said Sylvan Ranger instead of Gatecreeper Vine, but in retrospect, I think the vine is worse thanks to not being clampable.
My question more was: Why not any of the other bounce creatures over Man-O-War? Why does he hit the chopping block earlier than Dream Stalker, or Arctic Merfolk?
I have to admit, I can't follow a lot of this. It makes me feel like perhaps the OP might need an update of some kind? A lot of the sections explaining strategy and considerations like these are currently empty. I really love this deck, and I do think you're pioneering something pretty unique yet effective; however, I'm starting to doubt if I really understand at all how to think about this deck. And, because of it's wholistic nature, I'm really nervous to make any change without getting the reasons for making such a change.
PS: What do you think about Rattleclaw Mystic? I know you hate commenting until set release, but it seems like an inclusion worth a slot somewhere.
Out of curiosity, why is Man-o-War so far down on that list? It seems like the bounce creature with the most utility; I've had a few games where being able to bounce something that's not yours changed things dramatically (especially if you can keep replaying him via other methods. A sort of mini-ulamog).
As far as deciding which of these to cut for what, how important is it that replacements have either the same mana cost, or a similar effect? For example, does cutting Sage of Epityr for a 2-drop make sense? Or, how about dropping Augury Owl for Joraga Treespeaker - same cost, very different effects. I guess what I'm asking is: I know you have things fairly fine tuned, and I'd like to stay within those parameters as much as possible with any changes I may or may not make.
I think you're right, and I don't disagree (although, I didn't mean to imply those were my SOLE targets). I'm currently just playing in a very small meta *coughtwootherplayerscough*, so considering that and considering that Reclamation Sage is on the list of "worth testing", it seemed like a particularly powerful inclusion to try for my particular situation.
Yeah, I agree. They tend to shaft u/g especially with overpriced gimmicks. Just give us efficiently priced tricky effects like this.
What about Gatecreeper Vine? It seems to fill a very similar spot, but I'm not finding many ways in which the Gatecreeper does it better. I suppose it can save you on a turn you fail to have a land in hand, and it is technically deck thinning.
For those who are using Reclamation Sage, what are you cutting to include it? Whether or not it's really worth a spot in the most general form of the deck, in my personal play group, it's definitely a bullet worth having (Jitte and Survival come to mind first); I'm really not sure what to take out. Some thoughts from Jester would be greatly appreciated, as well.
I think I agree with both of you on everything you've said; however, isn't the point of a mainboard to be as general as possible, and then you side out your generality for your specificality? It seems to me that Phantasmal Image offers a lot against a totally unknown opponent, but offers much less when you can replace him with a very specific solution.
I suggest these ideas as an experienced novice trying to learn, though =)
I saw this series of similar suggestions. I'm wondering more and more if 2x Chord of Calling 2x Domri 4x Hierarchs 2x Wall of Roots is the way to go. I'm not a super professional player, though. Is going that route watering the deck down too much? Is focus better?
PS: Here are my proposed build thoughts. I tried to split evenly the ability to either "combo out" or "beat down"; yet, not completely compromising either. In the list, for each CMC I tried to visually separate them as comboy cards first, and beatdowny cards second. There's a pretty even split in each CMC between the two, with some overlap. I kind of think of the 1x Linvala as a Restoration Angel with "silver coating", but no combo potential.
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Wall of Roots
1x Spellskite
1x Phantasmal Image
2x Voice of Resurgence
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Deceiver Exarch
1x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Restoration Angel
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Murderous Redcap
2x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Zealous Conscripts
4x Birthing Pod
2x Chord of Calling
2x Domri Rade
Lands(23)
4x Grove of the Burnwillow
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Arid Mesa
2x Gavony Township
1x Breeding Pool
2x Fire-Lit Thicket
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
Edit: I see some people are liking Fiend Hunter. Given the build above, I would probably replace Eternal Witness. They just feel so similar in a lot of ways that I can't justify both. Agree/Disagree?
Edit2: I also want to point out that given the build, I'm thinking of Domri and Chord as "secondary" pods, with Domri being the "agro" split and Chord being the "combo" split. Obviously with some minor overlap between the two.
I'm really just barely learning the deck, but it was something I got thinking about and decided I'd just ask =)
I'd like to know this as well. I hadn't seen that card before, and it's really interesting. Maybe Gaea's cradle just does enough of that on it's own, though?
I haven't; I'll give that a spin.