What's your decklist right now? I notice you run souls, what did you take out? I could pause it but I figure you have it available somewhere copypastable.
Nevermind I shouldn't be lazy. I may have read past it, but what's the idea behind souls over prison? Expecting BGx > Twin?
I suppose the reason I like Harrow so much is that I've been goldfishing this deck. No interaction makes Harrow ridiculous. As for sideboarding, what's the first card to get boarded out in most matchups?
For example: I was doing some testing against a bot playing burn and I obviously want to board in Spellskites, but what do I take out?
Wargate can be hard to cast but the consistency upside is huge. There are alternatives ... but none of them are quite as exciting.
I feel like Travis often tries to do what he views as 'cool', which is totally fine. The problem is that he usually portrays his 'cool' somewhat competitive/good/consistent decks as being great in those aspects.
Just my two cents for now. I incidentally discovered this different deck a couple days ago and the TWOO timing is impeccable as always. I plan on reading through the entire thread this weekend. Am I correct in my assumption that the primer is relatively new (and thus relevant to current bannings)?
EDIT: So far, Harrow just seems better than Rampant Growth to me. If you're in a position where you have to spend the only 2 mana in your turn casting rampant growth you've pretty much lost so much gas already it's futile. Meanwhile Harrow thins for 2 and virtually costs only 1.
Turn 2
Cast Amulet of Vigor.
Play Simic Growth Chamber.
-> Put the three triggers (untap, untap, bounce) on the stack in such a way that it lets you untap twice before you have to bounce.
-> Resolve trigger 1 which untaps Simic Growth Chamber, tap to add UG to your mana pool.
-> Resolve trigger 2 which untaps Simic Growth Chamber, tap to add UG to your mana pool.
-> Resolve bounce trigger, returning Simic Growth Chamber to your hand.
Mana pool: UUGG.
Cast Summer Bloom for UG.
Mana pool: UG.
Play Simic Growth Chamber three more times, adding UUGG to your mana pool three times.
Return the untapped land to your hand.
Mana pool: UUUUUUUGGGGGGG (7U, 7G).
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Boros Garrison and Slayer's Stronghold.
Put triggers on the stack, making sure you get to untap the Boros Garrisons first.
Untap & tap Boros Garrisons adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap & activate Slayer's Stronghold giving your Primeval Titan +4/+0, vigilance, and haste.
Return Slayer's Stronghold to your hand.
Attack with your 10/6 Primeval Titan.
Primeval Titan's triggered ability searches for Vesuva and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion.
Vesuva enters copying Boros Garrison.
Untap & tap Vesuva twice adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion and activate it's ability giving Primeval Titan double strike.
Return Sunhome to your hand.
Resolve combat, dealing 20 damage.
Lands in play:
1 Boros Garrison
1 Vesuva copying Boros Garrison
2 Simic Growth Chamber
If you used Summoner's Pact to get your titan, you can pay for your pact.
As many titans as possible!
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Tolaria West and Simic Growth Chamber.
Put all triggers on the stack with the bounce trigger last.
Untap & tap Tolaria West twice adding UU to your mana pool.
Untap & tap Simic Growth Chamber twice adding UUGG to your mana pool.
Return Tolaria West to your hand.
Mana pool: UUUUUUUGGGGGGG (7U, 7G).
Transmute Tolaria West for a Summoner's Pact for UUG.
Cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUUUGG.
Mana pool: UUGGG.
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Tolaria West and Simic Growth Chamber.
Put all triggers on the stack with the bounce trigger last.
Untap & tap Tolaria West twice adding UU to your mana pool.
Untap & tap Simic Growth Chamber twice adding UUGG to your mana pool.
Return Tolaria West to your hand.
Mana pool: UUUUUUGGGGG (7U, 7G).
Transmute Tolaria West for a Summoner's Pact for UUG.
Cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUGGGG.
Mana pool: UU.
If you have SSG in your hand you can, at this point, use that mana to search up your 4th Titan.
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Tolaria West and Simic Growth Chamber.
Put all triggers on the stack with the bounce trigger last.
Untap & tap Tolaria West twice adding UU to your mana pool.
Untap & tap Simic Growth Chamber twice adding UUGG to your mana pool.
Return Tolaria West to your hand.
Exile SSG to add R to your mana pool.
Mana pool: UUUUUURGG.
Transmute Tolaria West for a Summoner's Pact for UUR.
Cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUUUGG.
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Boros Garrison and Slayer's Stronghold.
Put triggers on the stack, making sure you get to untap the Boros Garrisons first.
Untap & tap Boros Garrisons adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap & activate Slayer's Stronghold giving two Primeval Titan +2/+0, vigilance, and haste.
Return Slayer's Stronghold to your hand.
Attack with two 8/6 Primeval Titans.
Primeval Titan #1's triggered ability searches for Vesuva and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion.
Vesuva enters copying Boros Garrison.
Untap & tap Vesuva twice adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion and activate it's ability giving a Primeval Titan double strike.
Return Sunhome to your hand.
Primeval Titan #2's triggered ability searches for Khalni Garden and Gemstone Mine.
Resolve combat, dealing 24 damage.
Lands in play with 3 titans:
1 Boros Garrison
1 Vesuva copying Boros Garrison
3 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Khalni Garden
You can pay for 2 Summoner's Pacts.
Lands in play with 4 titans:
1 Boros Garrison
1 Vesuva copying Boros Garrison
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Khalni Garden
You can pay for 3 Summoner's Pacts.
It can be important to keep track of how many pacts you can pay for, if you fear removal.
Note that Path to Exile gives you an additional G, if you didn't start with a forest in hand, allowing you to pay for 3 pacts in case you search for 3 titans.
Scratch that, if they play it out properly they Path you before you get to search, meaning you're 1 colorless mana off of paying for 3 pacts.
The main advantage of Radiant Fountain over Glimmerpost is that if you choose to run the latter you need to run two, whereas Fountain is okay as a 1-of.
Having said that, let's look at the cases.
Case A: 2 Glimmer + Vesuva
vs
Case B: 2 Fountain + Vesuva
vs
Case C: 1 Fountain + Vesuva
plays out as follows if you're spamming lifegain.
Assuming post titan-search #1 you still have a land drop. Land tutor 1 A: 2 Glimmer -> 4 Life B: 2 Fountain -> 4 Life C: 1 Fountain + 1 Bounce -> 4 Life
Land tutor 2 A: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 6 Life B: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life C: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life
All subsequent tutorings have the same effect.
Assuming post titan-search #1 you DO NOT have a land drop. Land tutor 1 A: 2 Glimmer -> 4 Life B: 2 Fountain -> 4 Life C: 1 Fountain + 1 Bounce -> 2 Life
Land tutor 2 A: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 6 Life B: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life C: Play Fountain, 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce -> 4 Life
Seeing as you often do not have a land drop after getting your first titan out the life gain over 2 turns comes down to the following: A:10 life, 6 each turn after B:8 life, 4 each turn after C:6 life, 4 each turn after
Concluding all of this, I would never play 2 Fountain. If your meta is aggressive/racey enough that you want 2 land slots dedicated to lifegain: play 2 Glimmerpost, otherwise: playing the single Radiant + a Khalni is usually enough to stabilize.
Realistically, since we don't ever shock/pain/fetch ourselves gaining 6 over 2 turns and then 4 each turn after sounds like it should be enough. If your meta is something like 70% burn and you don't feel comfortable enough with Radiant + Vesuva I'd recommend swapping out a Cavern or Khalni, depending on the rest of your meta. Additionally if you don't want to take out either the game plan vs burn doesn't take a big hit from taking out Sunhome.
I think it's very viable to dismiss suggestions without solid evidence/reasoning to back it up. I'd love for suggestions like Silent Arbiter to spawn a two-page discussion, but with the depth currently provided it's not happening.
It feels too narrow, it's not pactable and doesn't solo carry the topdeck war which means you have to run 3-4 probably 3. Then we ask ourselves, is it really that good against enough decks to warrant running 3 in the sideboard. I think the answer is no.
Nevermind I shouldn't be lazy. I may have read past it, but what's the idea behind souls over prison? Expecting BGx > Twin?
2 Emeria
2 Flagstones
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Mistveil Plains
6 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Serra Ascendant
1 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Ranger of Eos
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Path to Exile
4 Orzhov Charm
4 Lingering Souls
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Wrath of God
1 Wrath of God
1 Rule of Law
1 Utter End
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Kami of False Hope
1 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Rest in Peace
4 Castigate
XMage allows you to play against a (very basic) bot. You can give it burn/removal/counter decks to simulate certain tough environments.
Note: Goblin Guide is pretty ridiculous against us
ktken, what came out for the bolts? 2x Rampant Growth 1x Search for Tomorrow?
Does it make you search for the stomping grounds more often than before? Does that make you miss kills where you prematurely pull Belcher?
For example: I was doing some testing against a bot playing burn and I obviously want to board in Spellskites, but what do I take out?
I feel like Travis often tries to do what he views as 'cool', which is totally fine. The problem is that he usually portrays his 'cool' somewhat competitive/good/consistent decks as being great in those aspects.
Just my two cents for now. I incidentally discovered this different deck a couple days ago and the TWOO timing is impeccable as always. I plan on reading through the entire thread this weekend. Am I correct in my assumption that the primer is relatively new (and thus relevant to current bannings)?
EDIT: So far, Harrow just seems better than Rampant Growth to me. If you're in a position where you have to spend the only 2 mana in your turn casting rampant growth you've pretty much lost so much gas already it's futile. Meanwhile Harrow thins for 2 and virtually costs only 1.
Turn 1
Play an untapped land (Radiant Fountain, Tendo Ice Bridge, Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Cavern of Souls, or a basic land.)
Cast Amulet of Vigor.
Turn 2
Cast Amulet of Vigor.
Play Simic Growth Chamber.
-> Put the three triggers (untap, untap, bounce) on the stack in such a way that it lets you untap twice before you have to bounce.
-> Resolve trigger 1 which untaps Simic Growth Chamber, tap to add UG to your mana pool.
-> Resolve trigger 2 which untaps Simic Growth Chamber, tap to add UG to your mana pool.
-> Resolve bounce trigger, returning Simic Growth Chamber to your hand.
Mana pool: UUGG.
Cast Summer Bloom for UG.
Mana pool: UG.
Play Simic Growth Chamber three more times, adding UUGG to your mana pool three times.
Return the untapped land to your hand.
Mana pool: UUUUUUUGGGGGGG (7U, 7G).
If needed, cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUUUGG.
A quick win
Put triggers on the stack, making sure you get to untap the Boros Garrisons first.
Untap & tap Boros Garrisons adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap & activate Slayer's Stronghold giving your Primeval Titan +4/+0, vigilance, and haste.
Return Slayer's Stronghold to your hand.
Attack with your 10/6 Primeval Titan.
Primeval Titan's triggered ability searches for Vesuva and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion.
Vesuva enters copying Boros Garrison.
Untap & tap Vesuva twice adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion and activate it's ability giving Primeval Titan double strike.
Return Sunhome to your hand.
Resolve combat, dealing 20 damage.
Lands in play:
- 1 Boros Garrison
- 1 Vesuva copying Boros Garrison
- 2 Simic Growth Chamber
If you used Summoner's Pact to get your titan, you can pay for your pact.As many titans as possible!
Put all triggers on the stack with the bounce trigger last.
Untap & tap Tolaria West twice adding UU to your mana pool.
Untap & tap Simic Growth Chamber twice adding UUGG to your mana pool.
Return Tolaria West to your hand.
Mana pool: UUUUUUUGGGGGGG (7U, 7G).
Transmute Tolaria West for a Summoner's Pact for UUG.
Cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUUUGG.
Mana pool: UUGGG.
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Tolaria West and Simic Growth Chamber.
Put all triggers on the stack with the bounce trigger last.
Untap & tap Tolaria West twice adding UU to your mana pool.
Untap & tap Simic Growth Chamber twice adding UUGG to your mana pool.
Return Tolaria West to your hand.
Mana pool: UUUUUUGGGGG (7U, 7G).
Transmute Tolaria West for a Summoner's Pact for UUG.
Cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUGGGG.
Mana pool: UU.
If you have SSG in your hand you can, at this point, use that mana to search up your 4th Titan.
Put all triggers on the stack with the bounce trigger last.
Untap & tap Tolaria West twice adding UU to your mana pool.
Untap & tap Simic Growth Chamber twice adding UUGG to your mana pool.
Return Tolaria West to your hand.
Exile SSG to add R to your mana pool.
Mana pool: UUUUUURGG.
Transmute Tolaria West for a Summoner's Pact for UUR.
Cast Summoner's Pact searching for a Primeval Titan.
Cast Primeval Titan for UUUUGG.
Primeval Titan's ETB trigger searches for Boros Garrison and Slayer's Stronghold.
Put triggers on the stack, making sure you get to untap the Boros Garrisons first.
Untap & tap Boros Garrisons adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap & activate Slayer's Stronghold giving two Primeval Titan +2/+0, vigilance, and haste.
Return Slayer's Stronghold to your hand.
Attack with two 8/6 Primeval Titans.
Primeval Titan #1's triggered ability searches for Vesuva and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion.
Vesuva enters copying Boros Garrison.
Untap & tap Vesuva twice adding WWRR to your mana pool.
Untap Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion and activate it's ability giving a Primeval Titan double strike.
Return Sunhome to your hand.
Primeval Titan #2's triggered ability searches for Khalni Garden and Gemstone Mine.
Resolve combat, dealing 24 damage.
Lands in play with 3 titans:
- 1 Boros Garrison
- 1 Vesuva copying Boros Garrison
- 3 Simic Growth Chamber
- 1 Gemstone Mine
- 1 Khalni Garden
You can pay for 2 Summoner's Pacts.Lands in play with 4 titans:
- 1 Boros Garrison
- 1 Vesuva copying Boros Garrison
- 4 Simic Growth Chamber
- 1 Gemstone Mine
- 1 Khalni Garden
You can pay for 3 Summoner's Pacts.It can be important to keep track of how many pacts you can pay for, if you fear removal.
Note that Path to Exile gives you an additional G, if you didn't start with a forest in hand, allowing you to pay for 3 pacts in case you search for 3 titans.Scratch that, if they play it out properly they Path you before you get to search, meaning you're 1 colorless mana off of paying for 3 pacts.
Realistically, since we don't ever shock/pain/fetch ourselves gaining 6 over 2 turns and then 4 each turn after sounds like it should be enough. If your meta is something like 70% burn and you don't feel comfortable enough with Radiant + Vesuva I'd recommend swapping out a Cavern or Khalni, depending on the rest of your meta. Additionally if you don't want to take out either the game plan vs burn doesn't take a big hit from taking out Sunhome.