I would think that the later would be included. They are, after all, just an infinite number version of the former.
If so, then that's past mere writer's oversight and straight into a whole nother level of not knowing what goes on in the game you're head designing for he's displaying. (just like that ridiculous statement about white artifact removal at uncommon)
So I'm reading through this and I find it interesting both how certain things seem oddly missing ("prevent all damage that would be dealt to target creature" is not mentioned anywhere that I can find, for example)
Quote from Maro »
Damage prevention (Prevent the next N damage that would be dealt to target creature/player.)
Primary: white
We don't do a lot of this effect any more, but when we do it's almost always in white
So I'm reading through this and I find it interesting both how certain things seem oddly missing ("prevent all damage that would be dealt to target creature" is not mentioned anywhere that I can find, for example) and some things are listed that have literally never been done. For example "Deal N damage to a creature that's been damaged this turn" is listed as secondary in black, but it has never appeared on a card of that color (unless that is actually a strange way to describe the Fatal Blow/Hooded Assassin effect).
Any thoughts? Also am I the only one who finds the statement that "White's artifact destruction is usually at uncommon." utterly laughable?
I have a sneaking suspicion this works better as a simple kicker mechanic with a small number of draft-around uncommon/rares caring about exiled cards. After all, getting the desecrate bonus in the first place may be harder than it seems in limited: Consider the amount support that was put in for Delve in Khans of Tarkir... Nice that some cards will work woith both desecrate and Swarm either way.
designwise Mental Anguish is a Dimir card. milling target player is strongly associated with Dimir on Ravnica. (also it's a card that requires desecration to have happened while being a desecration enabler at the same time, which seems like the worst palce for it to be). You're gonna want some selfmill enablers anyway because of Swarm (self-mill has been more of a Golgari thing on Ravnica: Dredge, Grisly Salvage, Rot Farm Skeleton, Deadbridge Chant, Drown in Filth), so having a secondary graveyard mechanic is fine.
I think Apostate healer is fine, especially since I don't recall blinking being a big thing so far. Bloodhunter Bat seems like a good indication that 3CMC Highway Robber/Dakmor Ghoul is legit. It could go at 1BB in case of doubts.
Morgue Scavenger, now, I'm less happy about. This type of ability as been strictly reserved for set-specific mechanics (i.e. ability words) at common. As much as I appreciate the option of using a nonkeyworded morbid, this is the "default" effect and just feels too close for comfort. Additionally, this seems unusually aggressive for black. Mind you, I'm not clear how aggressive black is supposed to be.
Carapace Spawn is a solid, simple Swarm card. 4/5
Epitaph Etcher demonstrate serious tensions and the disconnect I complained about reap previously.
Making reap count creatures that died seems a much better option, though. Good job there.
Flesh Graft's base effect might not be common (Bioshift muddles the assessment here), but my main concern is that it might well be irrelevant in a set where there is not archetype/mechanic centered around +1/+1 counters on cards, so that counters are just not that common.
Could Golgari Gorgon be some sort of plant, zombie or horror? A gorgon without a gorgon ability feels wrong.
Tahazzar makes a good about about Tomb Rats. Besides this ability is probably not common. I think this spot should be some Sacrifice engine? Reap might never gel without some sort of sacrifice engine for the players to draft straight up (plus that lets you adjust Thirst for Blood so it doesn't sacrifice).
I get why Willing Victim, but... well, why not a Death Cultist reprint or Fume Spitter variant? It could also bear to be a 1/2 or 1/1 Crypt Creeper. Not giving it an effect seems like you're foisting a big "WTF" redflag on it with very limited benefit.
On a more general level, I think black badly needs a more straightforward creature kill effect. Between Cost of Living and Mixed Blessing, the pickings are really slim...
I still want to see a cycle or two of creatures; a tight french vanilla cycle w/ 2 keywords each would be interesting.
I don't think there's enough keywords available at common for that (i.e. you can't have indestructible on a common creature). Besides the vanilla hybrids are already a creature cycle, one which Legend has discussed in previous thread. That makes two cycles at commons at least, and it's possible (though unlikely) there's another just haven't spotted.
My first reaction was to comment (but not necessarily recommend) that Adrenaline Rush could easily be 2R, or even 1R, but in Guildwar, red is paired with both major flying colors, so this is a good cost. If needed you can even go up and make it deal damage to its controller when it attacks instead.
I hope Avenge is redflagged, just pointing out.
Cauterize: what. Like, yes, these are relevant to the colors but... they work against each other so much this is about worth of damage! At least make it creature o player so you can cauterize yourself?
Crimson Savior... what. No seriously. I have no other word for this. It breaks the pie on pretty much every single word of rule text. It looks like the starting point for a rare phoenix rather than a common.
The default cost for making an instant/sorcery cantrip is . Also Disassemble doesn't work too well for the destroy land half.
Electrocute should just be formatted as a modal.
Heroic Inspiration feels like it's trying to be too clever for its own good.
I might've bought Inversion as a cheap instant (though the absence of a red prowess card makes it harder, especially since most prowess cards+surge sage have square stats), but adding inversion flies in the face of NWO too badly to ignore.
Menacing Minotaur is undercosted, at least judging by the extent crop of menace commons. You just don't get that much power on an unconditional menacing card. (and Emberhorn is not unconditional, even if it plays like it is)
War Cry is heavily underwhelming, and the white doesn't actually adds anything white to the effect. Options: +1/+0 into +1/+2, or add indestructible? (and that was before I noticed it's a sorcery)
Bone Thrull - Hunger of the Howlpack. White didn't copy creature tokens until WotC made Populate. Plus one counters are a huge part of white's identity.
Larder Giant - It's a 3/3 or potential 4/4 if a condition is met.
And even THAT is not a white thing, as I pointed out. White effects that will grow (with a counter) a 3/3 into a 4/4 require an extra turn (and usually an attack), and they are not at common either way (e.g. Prized Elephant, Aetherstorm Rock, War Oracle...). White is barely starting to get any Hill Giants at all at common; this is significantly over the line (power higher than 3 at common, conditional or not, is very rare for white at any mana cost).
Skyjek Elite - Good catch. Changed wording "As Skyjek Elite enters the battlefield..."
Huh... Y'know, I never realized "as" could be used in that way. Neat.
I really like the Forced Fealty design, BTW. As a sorcery, it could easily be "tap up to two". Exorcism's neat too (TBH, I probably wouldn't have come up with it myself, so I might well have to steal it XD).
The reap cards feel incredibly disconnected for a cost+discard effect. I'm not even sure how the death requirement justifies itself from a game design point of view, much less from the point of view of a player opening these cards, especially seeing as there are very few ways to trigger them. (I wasn't part of the previous discussion about reap, or I would've commented about those issues).
Bone Thrull's Reap effect is not common. "Put three +1/+1 counters on target critter" is simply not a common effect. It's not even a white effect to begin with (indeed, putting more than one counter at all is probably not white)
Vizkopa Blessing gains too much (Heroes' Reunion is uncommon because the cost for it at common is probably 2WG). My instinct would be 1w gain three WB Drain three (yes, I'm aware this idea conflicts with the base reap effect I proposed above)
Still not thrilled with Disillusion, just saying.
Exorcism's flavor is way off. It feels like it does the exact opposite of what I expect such a card to do (namely something like Life After Death's base effect)
Is Knight Patrol supposed to trigger off your opponents' creatures too?
Larder Giant almost certainly should say "another target creature". White doesn't really get 4/4s (all of the ones it has are mythics, and the one that can grow there are rares and take additional effort). On further investigation and against expectations, this is a rather unusual effect for white, especially white common, it's overall more of a green effect. Maybe on a WG hybrid card?
Is Skyjek Elite specifically intended to be vulnerable to instant-speed removal? That seems frustrating on a creature which says "indestructible". Maybe a wording like "~ enters the battlefield with indestructible until your next turn" could be considered? I'm not sure the rules as is formally handle it, but it's a very straightforward wording, I think.
Blue usually has a conditional counterspell at common (accompanying Cancel were negate in Amonkhet, Disdainful Stroke in Khans of Tarkir, and Dispel/Essence Backlash in Return to Ravnica).
Agree that Forager Faerie sticks out strongly. It doesn't seem NWO, nor does it feel blue unless blue does a lot with auras in this set (which seems unlikely).
Forced Hybridization sounds cool, but the whole "pick card types" seems unnecessary. From a paper angle, it does weird thing to the token card. It creates potential memory issues even though the types don't seem to matter. Maybe "with 'this card has all types of other creatures you control'"?
I just noticed that I misread Infuse the last time. I thought it was a Flashback variant. It's actually a discard-immune splice. I can see why you find it hard to develop!
I believe Invisibeeble should be a 1/2 or also a 0/1. Why? 3/3 unblockable on turn 4, that's why (and can be a 4/4 unblockable even if you stay stuck at three lands!).
Mantle of Guile may well not be a common, or at least undercosted, especially with Invisibeeble around. (3/4 hexproof unblockable critter on turn four? gimme). Compare Alpha Authority.
I think Mizzium Mists is a fine card as is. I'm not sure what you dislike about it. You're gonna need a -N/-0 spell anyway
Agree with BlazingRagnarok that Dispel is not a grokable wording for milling.
Regarding Plaxwing Drake I'm not convinced that "block additional creature" is strongly green enough at this point that it can be an activated ability. A rootwalla ability is more usual, and probably a better reward, too.
Thaumaturgy (?! what an odd choice of name, really doesn't feel Izzet) might well not be NWO-friendly at all. It does work fantastically with Alchemist's Apprentice, Izzet Weird and the drake, but I'm honestly not sure if that's a point in favor of it being a common or an "I'll let this table" uncommon.
It feels like a waste to have 2 prowess french vanillas (also note that Prowess is usually a 1 or 2-commons keyword, so you're kinda preventing yourself from making a red card with prowess). Were it not for the hybrid vanilla cycle, I'd suggest making the hybrid a process card, freeing the other two slots).
There are two good blockers in Helical Eel and Izzet Weird. Couldn't the eel be a serpent of some sort?
Pretty sure Disillusion is fair at 1WB. I mean, the base is 3B (Mental Agony, Witness the End), and if you're gonna cost Fly Away that aggressively, I really don't see what justify the costing on Disillusion.
I see your point. I'll keep it as is for now and conserve it as wiggle room for any mana curve adjustments that may come later.
Fair enough. I was getting the feeling you wanted to generally price these somewhat aggressively, so that one stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, unless the set has a sizeable graveyard component that this card specifically serves as a safety valve to (cf. Scarab Feast, Cremate, Annihilating Fire), the exiling is not actually a relevant improvement (I personally suspects that we'll see "Target player exiles two cards from their hand." for 2B in standard eventually).
Casting aside how R&D don't like regeneration much anymore (I don't agree with eliminating it either), I don't understand why the hybrid cost, and regeneration is not obtainable with a mono-white cose. No the creature being WB is no excuse.
Pretty sure Disillusion is fair at 1WB. I mean, the base is 3B (Mental Agony, Witness the End), and if you're gonna cost Fly Away that aggressively, I really don't see what justify the costing on Disillusion.
It's the sort of mechanics I feel are hard to evaluate until seeing how they actually play in their environment. I note you take precaution not to put it on creatures. I assum this is due to some looping issue? Since the only looping that would be enabled is something like Wharf Infiltrator or the Amonkhet discard trigger, this seems an unnecessary concern.
I agree the mechanic name is less than ideal. "Exume" is too... hands-on/dirty sounding for Orzhov.
I thought Daxos was a champion (or was it oracle?) of all gods? Or did I misremember that?
There's a lot of link issues, especially, for some reason, in the Zendikar section. I'm not sure why several links seem to be intended for story articles only in that section, so for those I listed both the story and fixed card link.
You got Elspeth's family name misspelled in the Scars sction.
If so, then that's past mere writer's oversight and straight into a whole nother level of not knowing what goes on in the game you're head designing for he's displaying. (just like that ridiculous statement about white artifact removal at uncommon)
Maro is talking about Shieldmate's Blessing type of effects (which have not been seen since Acolyte's Reward and Hold at Bay in BNG). What _I_ am referring to is the "post-protection" damage prevention effect found on cards like Djeru's Resolve, Lithomancer's Focus and Enshrouding Mist.
Any thoughts? Also am I the only one who finds the statement that "White's artifact destruction is usually at uncommon." utterly laughable?
designwise Mental Anguish is a Dimir card. milling target player is strongly associated with Dimir on Ravnica. (also it's a card that requires desecration to have happened while being a desecration enabler at the same time, which seems like the worst palce for it to be). You're gonna want some selfmill enablers anyway because of Swarm (self-mill has been more of a Golgari thing on Ravnica: Dredge, Grisly Salvage, Rot Farm Skeleton, Deadbridge Chant, Drown in Filth), so having a secondary graveyard mechanic is fine.
I don't think there's enough keywords available at common for that (i.e. you can't have indestructible on a common creature). Besides the vanilla hybrids are already a creature cycle, one which Legend has discussed in previous thread. That makes two cycles at commons at least, and it's possible (though unlikely) there's another just haven't spotted.
And even THAT is not a white thing, as I pointed out. White effects that will grow (with a counter) a 3/3 into a 4/4 require an extra turn (and usually an attack), and they are not at common either way (e.g. Prized Elephant, Aetherstorm Rock, War Oracle...). White is barely starting to get any Hill Giants at all at common; this is significantly over the line (power higher than 3 at common, conditional or not, is very rare for white at any mana cost).
Huh... Y'know, I never realized "as" could be used in that way. Neat.
I really like the Forced Fealty design, BTW. As a sorcery, it could easily be "tap up to two". Exorcism's neat too (TBH, I probably wouldn't have come up with it myself, so I might well have to steal it XD).
Fair enough. I was getting the feeling you wanted to generally price these somewhat aggressively, so that one stuck out like a sore thumb. I mean, unless the set has a sizeable graveyard component that this card specifically serves as a safety valve to (cf. Scarab Feast, Cremate, Annihilating Fire), the exiling is not actually a relevant improvement (I personally suspects that we'll see "Target player exiles two cards from their hand." for 2B in standard eventually).
Pretty sure Disillusion is fair at 1WB. I mean, the base is 3B (Mental Agony, Witness the End), and if you're gonna cost Fly Away that aggressively, I really don't see what justify the costing on Disillusion.
I agree the mechanic name is less than ideal. "Exume" is too... hands-on/dirty sounding for Orzhov.
I have no objection with vermin being the type, but the assertion that "the Golgari Swarm isn't an Insect tribe" is very strange. Most insect in both Ravnica blocks are Golgari, and by a wide margin at that: Deadbridge Goliath, Drudge Beetle, Gleancrawler, Golgari Longlegs, Grave-Shell Scarab, Kraul Warrior, Mortipede, Zanikev Locust. (Second are Gruul and Simic, both with mo more than two associated insect critters each)