AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH. You keep saying that, but fail to prove how. You say the "draw back" is not a draw back. I ask what differnts it makes. You start talking about standard. How does gifts itself interact poorlly with the format. Lets say for the sake of argument it doesn't say find a card with differnt names then how does it interact poorly with the format?
I think a lot of people are with you. Most of the cards discussed in here (Not Ancestral Recal, but most) are 'on the edge' of the list. They cant stop people from doing broken stuff, so they don't try very hard. DK really hits the nail here, Gifts only real drawback does not apply in EDH, so its a 4 card tutor for 4 mana at instant speed.
This part made me laugh man. What does it matter that Gifts "draw back" does't apply in EDH? What banning Criteria does it meet?
IIRC, Titancross, it was banned for power / undesirable gamestate reasons. (The RC rarely bans explicitly and only for power level.)
The idea was that it was being abused to quickly set up game-ending combos that were difficult to fight without narrow hate AND it did that without requiring much build-around (ie, it was accidentally degenerate).
It doesn't create an undiserable game state at worst it merely facilitates a potential combo that might win the tha game. As for "narrow hate" it fails to counterspell stop control and graveyard hate, it fails to anyone of them and all of which you should be already running.
Seriously, this says it all. Gifts was designed so that, to play the card, you had to fundamentally alter the way your deck was built. We're not talking small modification either; it required a near overhaul of a deck to play Gifts. The card was designed with that in mind.
In EDH, that doesn't happen. The card doesn't work as intended. It interacts very poorly with the format.
You took a sentence out what I worte and twisted what I said around. You are worse than FOX. Back in the day you had to build you deck around Memory Jar to make it work in standard also.
Again, EDH is all is a format about playing with cards and making them better than when they were standard. Gifts is a great card for EDH and it speaks to the foramt.
Despite how many cards are actually involved, it's a one-card combo because it only takes a single card to get the ball rolling. If Protean Hulk could sacrifice itself it would be a one-card combo as well.
Basically, yeah.
Hulk put cards directly into play Gifts does not at best if your oppent put your combo into your hand you would still have to play those peices, so maybe not a five card combo or inthis case a three card, but most certainly not a one card combo. I do See what you are trying to get at it just not exactly correct.
You are aware that this is a weak argument at best, right? There's not much more you can say because there is no reason for Gifts to come off the banlist. Karakas interacts poorly with the format; Gifts interacts poorly with the format.
Please put some substance into your posts.
Okay, Karakas is a land making it free and can completely nullify someones general. Often time poeple base deck around there general and having one card that can completly nullify someone deck stifles creativity and interacts poorly with the format.
Gifts has a draw back that is irrelevant in this format. It does not win that game on its on, unless built around, and even then there many time in which to interact with it (goal of EDH interactive games).
Can you know see why this is an apples to oranges comparison?
There's not much more I can say on this subject. It has little to do with the power of Gifts and all about the design behind the card and how it fits into EDH.
Look at Karakas. It's not a powerful card. In a format where everyone has at least one legendary creature that their entire deck is likely built around, having the card legal just doesn't work.
Gifts is the same way. It was designed and costed specifically for a 4-of format. It was designed so that, if you played it, you had to significantly change the way your deck was built. In EDH, that no longer applies, so the card just doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
You are aware that this ios a weak arugment at best right? There is not much more you can say because the is no defence for gifts being on the ban list. Karakas interacts poorly with the format, gifts just interacts with it.
So, that's a poor interaction with the design of the format.
Please tell me how I may have been a little short that last post what differents does it make? It is better in EDH than it was in standard? That why EDH is around.
EDIT By the by this is good stuff we aer starting to get to the heart of the matter. In all honesty thank you.
Because Gifts searches for 4 and puts 2 in your hand. Intuition searches for 3 and puts 1 in your hand. Basically, most combos are 2 card combos, so putting one in your hand is more like a tutor, and putting 2 in your hand sets up the actual combo. Obviously there are exceptions but at the end of the day it's just easier to combo out with Gifts than Intuition based on the nature of the spells.
That doesn't make it a one card combo, at all. At best it makes it a three cards combo and if you oppent isn't an idiot it's a four to five card combo.
None of your arguments change the fact that Gifts deserves to be banned.
It interacts poorly with the format.
Explain to exactly how it interacts poorly with the format. Is it becuase it says get cards with different names? To me that sounds perfect for a singalton format. I am not trying to be obtuse I just don't know why it is a big deal that it says get cards wwith different names.
How about that I was to high to frelaize I was doing it right I let the guy convince me I was wrong any how thank you very much. Doesn't change the fact that gifts doesn't deserve a ban.
Doc, you're flat-out wrong about T+N being a "counter-or-lose" card. There's no combo that it fetches that can't be dealt with w/ instant speed hate; most can be handled with something as simple as Doom Blade. In fact, if you're casting Gifts eot to set up a game-winning pile for your next turn, they both have the exact same window of opportunity – instant-speed spot or GY removal.
Second, Tooth is 9 mana all at once. That's a higher hurdle to achieve than a 4/8 split. That's the strength of splitting your mana; when done properly, it allows you to do powerful plays more quickly.
Finally, Gifts isn't a 5-card combo; if your opponents didn't counter Gifts, it's because a) they needed your Gifts to go off for whatever reason, or b) they didn't have the counterspell. It's really that simple. In the bulk of real-world situations, Gifts is the spell to counter, not the things it grabs.
How do you stop Kiki Script? I would like to know beacuse it is a win con for someone in my group.
No doubt that Gifts is the thing to counter if you can, but entering you turn and more so your main one also opens up operatunities for your oppents as well i.e Seedborn Muse or Con Sphinx as examples.
The fact is Gifts doesn't need to be banned as it doesn't fit any of the banning criteria
Are you aware that with Gifts you can find only two cards and it becomes a double Entomb?
Intuition is not remotely the same thing. You cannot fail to find with Intuition. You can never get two cards from Intuition. Intuition was not designed with a drawback that is nullified by a Singleton format.
Might want to heed your own advice regarding Abe.
Intuition can also be cast turn one into turn two reanimate huge or what have you.
Honest question, why is it so important that the, draw back is less of a hinderance in EDH? From what I understand that is what most of the people who oppose hing there argument on. If breaks non of the banning criteria let alone mulitple criteria to warrant a ban.
I would save your keystrokes. Its circular with this card and this poster. It has been explained multiple times that its a poor interaction, he won't combat that stance other than 'intuition is a card'.
Again thnak you for you most valued insight as always this forum is better because you posted in it. You always do have somethind constructive to add to the conversation, thankyou.
It's interesting to bring up the Tooth v. Gifts comparison, though.
Consider: Tooth is a 9-mana sorcery that can either a) do a strong, but rarely backbreaking play (double Eldrazi, etc.) or it can end the game (Mike + Trike, Kiki + half of Magic, etc.)
Gifts is a 4-mana instant that can either a) do a strong, but rarely backbreaking play (fetching flashback + utility cards, setting up big animation targets, etc.) or it can end the game (with half of Magic, again). However, it needs additional mana input to do so (which is less of a burden, of course, at instant speed).
They're both very, very strong cards that have multiple angles of attack against them (instant grave hate, spot removal and, of course, counterspell mean that every color can legitimately battle the cards). Gifts is clearly stronger, of course, but T+N has been closing the gap in recent years.
I guess the central question is this: Is the card's much lower mana cost and instant speed relevant enough to be banworthy? What's the cheapest Mike+Trike-style game-ender that Gifts can set up? If Gifts can't close the deal for less than 7 mana on the back end, I could see taking it off the list.
You bring up alot of good points firt I submit to you that TnN is far better than Gifts. Heres why, TnN is a one card game ending combo. Gifts you have to play five cards. TnN you have to counter or loss cards like Boseju make this an impossiblility. Gifts can be countered, it is also subject instant speed grave hate and you can only have one Boseju so that leaves 4 other spells that can be interacted with, futhermore if you use the same creature combo as TnN you have fewer spell in which to counter (seeing as how reanimation gets around having to get the card back as well as play it), but you now have spot control to answer the combo. Gifts is far more interactive than TnN. TnN cost 9 for all intent and purposes, Gifts cost four (this is often nullifyed by casting EoT and then entering ones turn. Even so switching Phases because a factopr as well.) + the recsuion spells + the actual spells, so TnN is also cheaper.
The game ending combo of Gifts alone are weak at best with cards that are sub par I don't know tham off the top of my head but they have been talked about before. The Combo Brew Master could tell use if he is reading.
AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH. You keep saying that, but fail to prove how. You say the "draw back" is not a draw back. I ask what differnts it makes. You start talking about standard. How does gifts itself interact poorlly with the format. Lets say for the sake of argument it doesn't say find a card with differnt names then how does it interact poorly with the format?
EDIT; If so How?
This part made me laugh man. What does it matter that Gifts "draw back" does't apply in EDH? What banning Criteria does it meet?
It doesn't create an undiserable game state at worst it merely facilitates a potential combo that might win the tha game. As for "narrow hate" it fails to counterspell stop control and graveyard hate, it fails to anyone of them and all of which you should be already running.
You took a sentence out what I worte and twisted what I said around. You are worse than FOX. Back in the day you had to build you deck around Memory Jar to make it work in standard also.
Again, EDH is all is a format about playing with cards and making them better than when they were standard. Gifts is a great card for EDH and it speaks to the foramt.
Hulk put cards directly into play Gifts does not at best if your oppent put your combo into your hand you would still have to play those peices, so maybe not a five card combo or inthis case a three card, but most certainly not a one card combo. I do See what you are trying to get at it just not exactly correct.
Okay, Karakas is a land making it free and can completely nullify someones general. Often time poeple base deck around there general and having one card that can completly nullify someone deck stifles creativity and interacts poorly with the format.
Gifts has a draw back that is irrelevant in this format. It does not win that game on its on, unless built around, and even then there many time in which to interact with it (goal of EDH interactive games).
Can you know see why this is an apples to oranges comparison?
You are aware that this ios a weak arugment at best right? There is not much more you can say because the is no defence for gifts being on the ban list. Karakas interacts poorly with the format, gifts just interacts with it.
Please tell me how I may have been a little short that last post what differents does it make? It is better in EDH than it was in standard? That why EDH is around.
EDIT By the by this is good stuff we aer starting to get to the heart of the matter. In all honesty thank you.
So what?
That doesn't make it a one card combo, at all. At best it makes it a three cards combo and if you oppent isn't an idiot it's a four to five card combo.
Explain to exactly how it interacts poorly with the format. Is it becuase it says get cards with different names? To me that sounds perfect for a singalton format. I am not trying to be obtuse I just don't know why it is a big deal that it says get cards wwith different names.
How about that I was to high to frelaize I was doing it right I let the guy convince me I was wrong any how thank you very much. Doesn't change the fact that gifts doesn't deserve a ban.
Both cards come into play at the same time, right?
Will you let me how it is a one card combo. I don't know thw peices that go into it off the top of my head.
How do you stop Kiki Script? I would like to know beacuse it is a win con for someone in my group.
No doubt that Gifts is the thing to counter if you can, but entering you turn and more so your main one also opens up operatunities for your oppents as well i.e Seedborn Muse or Con Sphinx as examples.
The fact is Gifts doesn't need to be banned as it doesn't fit any of the banning criteria
Intuition can also be cast turn one into turn two reanimate huge or what have you.
Honest question, why is it so important that the, draw back is less of a hinderance in EDH? From what I understand that is what most of the people who oppose hing there argument on. If breaks non of the banning criteria let alone mulitple criteria to warrant a ban.
Again thnak you for you most valued insight as always this forum is better because you posted in it. You always do have somethind constructive to add to the conversation, thankyou.
You bring up alot of good points firt I submit to you that TnN is far better than Gifts. Heres why, TnN is a one card game ending combo. Gifts you have to play five cards. TnN you have to counter or loss cards like Boseju make this an impossiblility. Gifts can be countered, it is also subject instant speed grave hate and you can only have one Boseju so that leaves 4 other spells that can be interacted with, futhermore if you use the same creature combo as TnN you have fewer spell in which to counter (seeing as how reanimation gets around having to get the card back as well as play it), but you now have spot control to answer the combo. Gifts is far more interactive than TnN. TnN cost 9 for all intent and purposes, Gifts cost four (this is often nullifyed by casting EoT and then entering ones turn. Even so switching Phases because a factopr as well.) + the recsuion spells + the actual spells, so TnN is also cheaper.
The game ending combo of Gifts alone are weak at best with cards that are sub par I don't know tham off the top of my head but they have been talked about before. The Combo Brew Master could tell use if he is reading.