So if I'm reading this correctly (which I really doubt), if I have both of these out and my opponent plays a creature or artifact 3cc or less, they will take 2 damage twice... correct or not?
Why I think it may be not, is the Eidolon is saying cast, so it's the cast that triggered the ability, not the fact that something triggered an ability after it entered the battlefield, which is what Panharmonicon is looking for?
One that got me thinking replying to another thread...
Aether Flask - X
Artifact
~ enters the battlefield with X [type] counters.
T: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost equal to the number of [type] counters on ~ from your hand into play.
A one time set and forget AV. Most tribal decks could set it at 1/2/3 easily enough, but could also be used for big mana decks, T3 tap Tron for 6, play this drop a Wurmcoil Engine that can't be countered whenever is most convenient for the player.
Not quite AV power level, but has some potential?!?
I agree with Worldsaverinc, we would currently be tier 2/3 if more people played the deck and played it more often. I see this new land as a strict replacement for Ancient Ziggurat in fast slivers or a budget option for caverns in traditional slivers. This may be exactly what we needed to make tier 2/3 with more people playing the deck all be it the budget version.
CoS and Aether Vial are the hurdles for Slivers. $170+/- US for a play set of each.
The land may help, but you also need a budget version of AV to get printed before more people will play it IMO.
I like it on paper (never tested it as of yet), as it...
- Is a Flyer that can swing for 2 in the beatdown plan.
- Can sac to protect vs. board wipes.
- Can protect the combo from non-Path creature removal (up to 2 if you copy it with a Saheeli on the board and you have the Cat ready to cast in hand).
Yes I lose some extra draw without the wall, but there have been games where the wall has sat there looking smug and I had nothing to pressure my opponent with.
But if the player knows what he/she is doing they would just go off, or continue on after you cast either of the two spells and kill you before it resolves. You would need to cast it prior to them having the ability to go off, and then they would most likely just wait a turn.
Leyline of Sanctity will work (preventing MR from targeting the player), Murderous Redcap's ability targets.
How often do you generally go for the combo instead of just value beatdown?
Lejoon pretty much said it above...
"But truly, I realized that the way you win the most games is by taxing your opponent on resources, put them in spots where they need to play to your plan and not to theirs."
Myself I go for it pretty much every time. The way I look at it is they need something to stop me or I just win, so why not go for it and make them change how they are playing so they don't just lose if they tap out on future turns, or don't hold onto (or have) removal for the combo.
The best part is stopping the combo for a turn, doesn't stop the deck (which can happen with some combo decks). You still have future plays such as bringing back key cards with E-Witness, Evolution for your Sun Titan with a couple Saheeli's in the yard for the alt combo, play your backup copies of the combo, etc... or just the value beat down as you mentioned.
I (personally) think because of the combo there are not a lot of outright 'bad' match-ups. We can win like a combo deck T3 or T4. That said, there are bad games. For myself decks that can out swarm us if we don't see any combo pieces. They typically have lords and out pace any damage we can send back their way. I know I will be picking up a Gaddock Teeg to cover decks with Collected Company, Chord, etc. Also anything with mass removal (Supreme Verdict) can set you back if you over commit to the beat down plan.
Yeah I think I need to pick one up next time out and give it a try. I can see decks like Spirits, Humans, Slivers, etc., Company all having a similar outcomes if I can't combo off quick enough they will just overrun me.
Maybe go down a Blessed Alliance for it, 3x SB cards + the Thragtusk MD should be enough for burn.
I'm loving this deck so far, plays so much to my style. My current version is above.
It can win in so many ways, and from my (limited) insight it really forces my opponents to hold back (wanting to be able to stop the combo) allowing me just to play out however I want. I have sometimes even told my opponent what I am playing just to slow them down knowing they are waiting for 'it' to happen.
I have only used it for the past couple Modern nights, but its amazing so far. I was 3-0-1 the first time and 3-1 the second.
The deck can play a long game, win games it has no business doing so, and just combo off insanely quick sometimes (I have hit all 3... the T3 on the play, the unexpected Evolution into Sun Titan and 2x Saheeli's in the yard, and even the Lotus + Renegade + Fetch to generate 7 mana and play out both Saheeli and Felidar the same turn (playing Saheeli first to copy the Renegade again).
My one loss so far was a Bant Spirit deck with Company's where I kept a 5 land hand and drew the next 3 cards all lands (should had sent it back but it had a Birds and Saheeli). Then game 2 he hits all-star both times on back-to-back Company's (a Lord + other spirit on each). I have beat Dredge, Storm, Jund, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi and U/W Bounce. Felt like any game was 50/50 just waiting to see if they were going to go off, or if I could combo.
I think this will easily replace my Bant Knightfall deck as my new go to. So much easier to both combo and just play out value creatures.
I definitely need to get more games in with it tho'... land sequencing has been an issue, where I have almost punted a few matches due to not knowing what I should get in which order.
With the new rules, if its revealed (Counterbalance or other effects) its CC is considered the combined numbers (CC of 3 in the case of Wear // Tear), but if it is cast the characteristics come from the side cast... so Wear would be a red instant with a CC of 2 on the stack, and Tear a white instant with a CC of 1 on the stack.
summoning sickness only applies to creatures attacking or to the tapping/untapping of a creature's abilities
To clarify a little further, this only applies to ability costs that use a tap symbol.
Any ability that requires tapping 'something' as part of the cost, such as Patron Wizard, can be used even if the creature it is tapping has summoning sickness (including itself the turn it comes into play).
A format needs failsafe mechanisms and right now Standard doesn't really have them. If we had Lightning Strike or Mana Leak in the format, this combo would have been much more manageable and no ban would have been necessary. Probably wouldn't have needed the other three bans either. Wizards just absolutely neuters control, and the result is that a combo deck can run unchallenged.
Agreed 100%.
Their desire to slow down the format has created monsters out of cards that are at best a little pushed.
Its also no coincidence that all the banned cards are creatures when they have been far too focused on making sure there is a busy and exciting battlefield full of cards for Twitch streams, instead of maintaining a balance between creatures, control, removal, etc.
Panharmonicon
So if I'm reading this correctly (which I really doubt), if I have both of these out and my opponent plays a creature or artifact 3cc or less, they will take 2 damage twice... correct or not?
Why I think it may be not, is the Eidolon is saying cast, so it's the cast that triggered the ability, not the fact that something triggered an ability after it entered the battlefield, which is what Panharmonicon is looking for?
Just want to clarify, thanks.
Aether Flask - X
Artifact
~ enters the battlefield with X [type] counters.
T: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost equal to the number of [type] counters on ~ from your hand into play.
A one time set and forget AV. Most tribal decks could set it at 1/2/3 easily enough, but could also be used for big mana decks, T3 tap Tron for 6, play this drop a Wurmcoil Engine that can't be countered whenever is most convenient for the player.
Not quite AV power level, but has some potential?!?
CoS and Aether Vial are the hurdles for Slivers. $170+/- US for a play set of each.
The land may help, but you also need a budget version of AV to get printed before more people will play it IMO.
I like it on paper (never tested it as of yet), as it...
- Is a Flyer that can swing for 2 in the beatdown plan.
- Can sac to protect vs. board wipes.
- Can protect the combo from non-Path creature removal (up to 2 if you copy it with a Saheeli on the board and you have the Cat ready to cast in hand).
Yes I lose some extra draw without the wall, but there have been games where the wall has sat there looking smug and I had nothing to pressure my opponent with.
If it doesn't work easy to switch back.
Anyone try it yet, any opinions?
But if the player knows what he/she is doing they would just go off, or continue on after you cast either of the two spells and kill you before it resolves. You would need to cast it prior to them having the ability to go off, and then they would most likely just wait a turn.
Leyline of Sanctity will work (preventing MR from targeting the player), Murderous Redcap's ability targets.
Lejoon pretty much said it above...
"But truly, I realized that the way you win the most games is by taxing your opponent on resources, put them in spots where they need to play to your plan and not to theirs."
Myself I go for it pretty much every time. The way I look at it is they need something to stop me or I just win, so why not go for it and make them change how they are playing so they don't just lose if they tap out on future turns, or don't hold onto (or have) removal for the combo.
The best part is stopping the combo for a turn, doesn't stop the deck (which can happen with some combo decks). You still have future plays such as bringing back key cards with E-Witness, Evolution for your Sun Titan with a couple Saheeli's in the yard for the alt combo, play your backup copies of the combo, etc... or just the value beat down as you mentioned.
I (personally) think because of the combo there are not a lot of outright 'bad' match-ups. We can win like a combo deck T3 or T4. That said, there are bad games. For myself decks that can out swarm us if we don't see any combo pieces. They typically have lords and out pace any damage we can send back their way. I know I will be picking up a Gaddock Teeg to cover decks with Collected Company, Chord, etc. Also anything with mass removal (Supreme Verdict) can set you back if you over commit to the beat down plan.
I didn't know Vigo the Carpathian was a cat lover.
Is my age showing that I could recognize that image so easy?
Maybe go down a Blessed Alliance for it, 3x SB cards + the Thragtusk MD should be enough for burn.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Felidar Guardian
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Reflector Mage
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Omens
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
Spells (14)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
3 Path to Exile
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Negate
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Reclamation Sage
I'm loving this deck so far, plays so much to my style. My current version is above.
It can win in so many ways, and from my (limited) insight it really forces my opponents to hold back (wanting to be able to stop the combo) allowing me just to play out however I want. I have sometimes even told my opponent what I am playing just to slow them down knowing they are waiting for 'it' to happen.
I have only used it for the past couple Modern nights, but its amazing so far. I was 3-0-1 the first time and 3-1 the second.
The deck can play a long game, win games it has no business doing so, and just combo off insanely quick sometimes (I have hit all 3... the T3 on the play, the unexpected Evolution into Sun Titan and 2x Saheeli's in the yard, and even the Lotus + Renegade + Fetch to generate 7 mana and play out both Saheeli and Felidar the same turn (playing Saheeli first to copy the Renegade again).
My one loss so far was a Bant Spirit deck with Company's where I kept a 5 land hand and drew the next 3 cards all lands (should had sent it back but it had a Birds and Saheeli). Then game 2 he hits all-star both times on back-to-back Company's (a Lord + other spirit on each). I have beat Dredge, Storm, Jund, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi and U/W Bounce. Felt like any game was 50/50 just waiting to see if they were going to go off, or if I could combo.
I think this will easily replace my Bant Knightfall deck as my new go to. So much easier to both combo and just play out value creatures.
I definitely need to get more games in with it tho'... land sequencing has been an issue, where I have almost punted a few matches due to not knowing what I should get in which order.
With the new rules, if its revealed (Counterbalance or other effects) its CC is considered the combined numbers (CC of 3 in the case of Wear // Tear), but if it is cast the characteristics come from the side cast... so Wear would be a red instant with a CC of 2 on the stack, and Tear a white instant with a CC of 1 on the stack.
To clarify a little further, this only applies to ability costs that use a tap symbol.
Any ability that requires tapping 'something' as part of the cost, such as Patron Wizard, can be used even if the creature it is tapping has summoning sickness (including itself the turn it comes into play).
Agreed 100%.
Their desire to slow down the format has created monsters out of cards that are at best a little pushed.
Its also no coincidence that all the banned cards are creatures when they have been far too focused on making sure there is a busy and exciting battlefield full of cards for Twitch streams, instead of maintaining a balance between creatures, control, removal, etc.
I mean it hits Fetches and a few cards in various decks, but it really just craps on that deck.